Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

NeoKING
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:55 pm

Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by NeoKING » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:06 am

Which kind of fight scenes do you prefer? The supernatural Jackie Chan-like fighting of DBZ movies 1-3 or the martial arts seen in the BoG/RoF? No in-betweens, so no Z anime series/GT.

Personally, I think I'd go with the old school. It's like every thing was thought of to the slightest tee. I'm watching movie 2 as I type this, and just look at the way Goku and Piccolo fight. Even their stances are detailed. BoG and RoF did impress me fight-wise, especially RoF when it came to action, though.

User avatar
fadeddreams5
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5137
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:53 pm
Location: New York

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:07 am

There's no contest. Old school. Besides Goku vs Beerus (both), the fights in the new movies suck, imo. SSGSS Goku vs Golden Frieza sums up everything I hate in a DBZ battle. The majority of it consists of generic rapid punches/kicks and flashes all over the place with minimal choreography. And the cherry on top? Set in a ****ing canyon. It's SSJ2 Goku vs Majin Vegeta all over again, only with ugly CGI to boot.

SSJG Goku vs Beerus' saving grace was the music, constantly changing setting, and their conversation in the middle of the fight. The actual battle? Meh.

Truthfully, I question if there can be a good fight nowadays in this series without them adding feats (planetary destruction with physical strength and space battles) or introducing unique villains like Majin Buu or Janemba, who have unique anatomies that can make any fight entertaining.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20941
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:01 am

I definitely prefer old school, when it comes to martial arts in Dragon Ball. While Beerus vs Goku was one of best battle the franchise has produced in quite a few years, you really can't top some of the old school Dragon Ball battles like Goku vs Jackie Chun, Goku vs Tien, Goku vs Piccolo Jr etc.

User avatar
Doctor.
Banned
Posts: 10558
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:02 am
Location: Portugal

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by Doctor. » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:27 am

I really find Jackie Chun vs Goku and Tenshinhan vs Goku some of the most overrated fights in the entire franchise. While the first one was good, the second one was average at best and both of them consisted of nothing other than Goku constantly one-upping his adversary to the point where it's ridiculous to think that he lost.

Nevertheless, I prefer old school too, because fights like Goku and Veggie round one and, especially, Goku vs Piccolo Jr, cannot be ever topped again.

User avatar
PolatGuy92
Newbie
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 5:40 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by PolatGuy92 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:26 am

Definitely the old school *pure* *realism* *hand to hand* martial arts. I just didn't like it anymore the Z fighting style with the ki blast spamming the sometimes unnecessary huge explosions etc.

I also hope that in Super they will go back with its roots with more hand to hand combat skills, better choreography and with less ki blast use

User avatar
Weedity
Newbie
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:30 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by Weedity » Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:53 am

I frankly prefer both. Perhaps old school takes it by a little? I'm not sure. Both have their ups and downs.

Jackie Chun vs Goku, Tien vs Yamcha, Goku vs Kuririn, all these were very well done fights. We also have new school fights that are very well done and are just as enjoyable! For instance, Goku vs Vegeta, Goku vs Freeza, Piccolo vs 17, Gotenks vs Super Boo, Gohan vs Super Boo

User avatar
Rocketman
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10798
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:17 pm

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by Rocketman » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:06 am

Weedity wrote: Goku vs Vegeta, Piccolo vs 17, Gotenks vs Super Boo, Gohan vs Super Boo
Those basically are old-school fights, though, if we're defining "old-school" as "brutal hand-to-hand". Well, Gotenks isn't, but it's one of the few to be inventive with ki techniques.

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5968
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:55 am

fadeddreams5 wrote:There's no contest. Old school. Besides Goku vs Beerus (both), the fights in the new movies suck, imo. SSGSS Goku vs Golden Freeza sums up everything I hate in a DBZ battle. The majority of it consists of generic rapid punches/kicks and flashes all over the place with minimal choreography. And the cherry on top? Set in a ****ing canyon. It's SSJ2 Goku vs Majin Vegeta all over again, only with ugly CGI to boot.

SSJG Goku vs Beerus' saving grace was the music, constantly changing setting, and their conversation in the middle of the fight. The actual battle? Meh.

Truthfully, I question if there can be a good fight nowadays in this series without them adding feats (planetary destruction with physical strength and space battles) or introducing unique villains like Majin Buu or Janemba, who have unique anatomies that can make any fight entertaining.
Well I did like the part where Freeza locks hands with Goku and then spins him around, that was something I wasn't used to seeing.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

NeoKING
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:55 pm

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by NeoKING » Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:22 pm

If I didn't make it clear enough in the OP, I meant the martial arts in DBZ movies 1-3 vs. BOG/ROF. Not in the actual series.

supercat
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1641
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:25 pm

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by supercat » Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:08 pm

NeoKING wrote:If I didn't make it clear enough in the OP, I meant the martial arts in DBZ movies 1-3 vs. BOG/ROF. Not in the actual series.
Why would you narrow it down to such a select number of choices? There were plenty of awe-inspiring fights in the original series that incorporated a variety of different techniques.

In my opinion, some of the best choreographic sequences took place during the events of the Freeza, Cell, and Buu arcs.

NeoKING
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1408
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:55 pm

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by NeoKING » Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:54 pm

supercat wrote:
NeoKING wrote:If I didn't make it clear enough in the OP, I meant the martial arts in DBZ movies 1-3 vs. BOG/ROF. Not in the actual series.
Why would you narrow it down to such a select number of choices? There were plenty of awe-inspiring fights in the original series that incorporated a variety of different techniques.
Because they're movies that I feel incorporated everything martial arts-y about Dragon Ball up until that point. BoG and RoF pretty much represent the best of everything martial arts after that time period.

In other words, because I wanted to.

supercat
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1641
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:25 pm

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by supercat » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:50 pm

NeoKING wrote:
supercat wrote:
NeoKING wrote:If I didn't make it clear enough in the OP, I meant the martial arts in DBZ movies 1-3 vs. BOG/ROF. Not in the actual series.
Why would you narrow it down to such a select number of choices? There were plenty of awe-inspiring fights in the original series that incorporated a variety of different techniques.
Because they're movies that I feel incorporated everything martial arts-y about Dragon Ball up until that point. BoG and RoF pretty much represent the best of everything martial arts after that time period.

In other words, because I wanted to.
Two completely different styles of fighting, with each falling in line proportionately with their respective eras.

The early style of fighting fits the level of power that Goku and co were wielding at the time, while the whole out of this world type of combat compliments the new realm of power they're currently sitting in.

DBZ already seems to have some inconsistencies with battle repercussions, and showing the proper extent of damage taken from attacks as it is. If they kept the old style with the new fights and/or fighters, there would be no point in constantly trying to flaunt how much power a particular fighter has gained.

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5968
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:57 pm

To be perfectly honest, ever since everyone was able to fly (Saiyan saga/beginning of Z) there have not really been any major shifts in the whole overall style of fighting.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
DoomieDoomie911
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 981
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 2:12 pm
Location: United States

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by DoomieDoomie911 » Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:42 pm

Although both have their charms, I definitely like the old stuff better. They're definitely both very different, though.
Cipher wrote:Dragon Ball is the story of a kind-hearted, excitable child who uses the power of friendship to improve those around him as he grows into a dangerous obsessive who sometimes accidentally saves the world.
She/her (I have a Twitter account now.)

User avatar
Dbzejo
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:21 am

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by Dbzejo » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:47 pm

Old old school ftw!!! Jackie Chun is the man!

User avatar
Attitudefan
I Live Here
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:51 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by Attitudefan » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:27 pm

I always have a problem with the new fights. It is not just an issue with DB, but with many modern films. I hark back to Star Wars 1977, where Ben Kenobi fights Darth Vader. You have two stiff older men fighting. Nothing flashy but it has meaning behind it. The way the fight sets up, with the sabers turning on, slowly the two fighters feel each other out with fake out parries and swings. There's a build up, from the beginning of the film through to the end of the fight with the death of Kenobi being very poignant and memorable. His death hits home and solidifies Darth as an absolute cold killer, as he struck down Kenobi without second thought, despite Kenobi giving up, murdering his own master without second thought.

Then you have Jurassic World. Two giant dinosaurs fighting, with no real build up other than saying "how cool would it be to have two giants break things?" It was pointless, it was flashy, and the graphics were nice. But the shaking camera doesn't really show much nor is there a real reason for this fight to happen. It happens because it is flashy. I watched it and felt no tension, nothing. Yeah, it was neat, but it added nothing if the fight was there or not. And most films are like this today. Shaking cameras, no real cinematography where the frames are artistically crafted to heighten the mood along with the plot, the music, and the overall character development. The Dragonball fights became this way. Full of flash and fast moving people but nothing really behind it. It doesn't really build the tension DURING the fight as the characters are hitting each other.

Some of the DBZ fights that did the build up well were in the Saiyan arc, and were some of the last proper use of creating a mood and bringing in the viewers with the protagonist's struggle. The fight with Vegeta, Nappa, or Raditz was crafted so smartly that it really felt like every punch meant something. For example, In the fight with Raditz, it had Goku and Piccolo fight Raditz, but DESPITE their fast movements, the camera clearly shows that Raditz takes NONE of their attacks AT THE SAME TIME. When Goku takes Raditz one on one, you have shots that switch between the three of them, with nobody else on frame except the one character. They show Raditz smiling and throwing punches, Goku unable to fight back, and Piccolo just stares on as he charges his attack. Brilliant.

I don't see that in Dragonball anymore and we really haven't since the Namek arc. They just throw rapid punches to highlight that they are fast, but there's no real cinematographic thought behind it. This was a major problem in BoG where Goku fights Beerus but that is all they really do. It's flashy, but the camera frames tell us nothing. Instead, they have to have the characters TELL US what is happening instead of SHOWING US. They have to break the fight to tell us this, and it may work better to fill up time in a serialized anime than a FILM that has 2 hours or less.

One thing I love about the Dead Zone film, or the other 2 DBZ films was the fact that they fought without breaking the fight to tell us how strong somebody is or if Goku is losing the fight. They show that to us. I love the fact that nearly all the battles have no music except when it seems Goku is winning. Goku fights Nikki, Ginger, and Sancho, and the music is hyped up and playing, yet quickly ends once Goku is CLEARLY losing the battle. The music does not restart, and never plays again when he is fighting the henchmen. Only when Goku and Piccolo start winning does the music start up again. Once again, it becomes clear that Goku and Piccolo are losing to the transformed Garlic Jr, the music is gone. All you hear are the footsteps of Garlic Jr charging from somewhere in the darkness of the palace.

Only until Goku and Piccolo take off their weighted clothing (another brilliant part to have a subplot within the fight; which the real brilliance of that comes from the fight with Raditz, as was mentioned earlier) does the music start up again, this time with the fastest track that has been played since (and is pretty much the last time we hear Dragon Ball's original theme). Once again, when all hope is lost, the music is off, and the sounds of Gohan's cries fill the speakers.

It's utterly brilliant. I could go into the actual framing of Dead Zone, but I don't have the time. It just shows how much the contribution of music, framing, cinematography, and other combinations together can pull in the viewer making a SINGLE FIGHT an emotional investment for the viewer. Having a shaking, flashy camera frame, with fights that are just a blur cannot do that. It's cool, but lacks substance.

I miss the old style of fighting, especially when it combined the Jackie CHan Kung Fu with a BALANCE of magical powers. The new fights lack humanity behind it.
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada

User avatar
Draconic
I Live Here
Posts: 2003
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:44 pm
Location: Romania

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by Draconic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:57 pm

The thing that bothers me the most is that since the battles are more centred around power and not technique, that the collateral damage should be greater, not just some rocks breaking from time to time. I personally prefer less flashy, more substance.
English is not my first language !

My breakdown of the new and old transformations. Hope to update it soon with many others!

User avatar
Attitudefan
I Live Here
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:51 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by Attitudefan » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:00 pm

Draconic wrote:The thing that bothers me the most is that since the battles are more centred around power and not technique, that the collateral damage should be greater, not just some rocks breaking from time to time. I personally prefer less flashy, more substance.
That's basically what I was trying to say without all the stuff I said! Haha!
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada

User avatar
Draconic
I Live Here
Posts: 2003
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:44 pm
Location: Romania

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by Draconic » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:10 pm

Attitudefan wrote:
Draconic wrote:The thing that bothers me the most is that since the battles are more centred around power and not technique, that the collateral damage should be greater, not just some rocks breaking from time to time. I personally prefer less flashy, more substance.
That's basically what I was trying to say without all the stuff I said! Haha!
Look at your avatar. Now back to me. That's me right now 8)
English is not my first language !

My breakdown of the new and old transformations. Hope to update it soon with many others!

User avatar
Attitudefan
I Live Here
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:51 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Martial Arts Preferences? Old School or New?

Post by Attitudefan » Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:16 pm

To be honest, I was hoping to entice discussion where people could pick apart what I said and either agree or disagree, but it seemingly ended the discussion. I'm kinda disappointed :think:
My favourite art style (and animation) outside Toriyama who worked on Dragon Ball: Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru, Masaki Satō, Minoru Maeda, Takeo Ide, Hisashi Eguchi, Katsumi Aoshima, Tomekichi Takeuchi, Masahiro Shimanuki, Kazuya Hisada

Post Reply