What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by Thouser » Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:55 am

Doctor. wrote:Because you're thinking short-term. Millions of people have already seen it, and other millions have not. Millions of people that are yet to be born and will, hopefully, be watching the series later on in their lives have also not seen the movies.
These millions of unborn future Dragon Ball fans haven't seen DB, DBZ, or Kai either.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:It is not consistent though, regardless of it being readily available to buy. Film and TV are two very different mediums you cannot interchange between them you risk alienating everyone that way.
Other franchises have done it. Besides, that's what Dragon Ball appeared to be doing anyway when we all assumed that Battle of Gods and FnF were continuations, and no one had a problem then.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:And what happens if someone wants to watch Super in the future?

I don't see a reason why acquiring the movies in the future would be that much more difficult than acquiring Super itself.
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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by Doctor. » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:01 am

Thouser wrote:These millions of unborn future Dragon Ball fans haven't seen DB, DBZ, or Kai either.
And what would be more pragmatic? Watching DB, then Z, then Super? Or watching DB, then Z, then Battle of Gods and F, then Super?

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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by Eire » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:07 am

And I almost forgot about the editors, I wish one of them were hired again so that they can help Toriyama, along with giving him a thousand shakes whenever he messes up.
Let's face it- who is going to face Toriyama and shake him enough to reason him? Toei executive board member? Editor one generation his junior?
It's actually a very common story- young author has a trusted editor/redactor (preferably older and wiser, with lots of experience and a name in publishing world) who helps him with his successful work. Author is young and cooperative, so they get along well for some years. Author grow older and more famous, editor dies/is fired/got an argument and leave. Author becomes old and important, but there's nobody to correct him, so you see the decline in his works.

I would love to see DBS as new, badass epic with lots of world building and consistency, but knowing Toriyama I don't think that will happen. You say- improve. But what if he just can't think about bigger picture, check facts, incorporate symbolism, play with tropes and so on. He is not Hiromu Arakawa or Riyko Ikeda to plan things in advance and put work into details. Writing stories is not a medicine practice when you learn new standards every 3 years. I really, really doubt that mature author can change his ways of writing.

Besides why should he? Does he get any negative feedback? Probably not from Toei where his name means extra money. I doubt that he personally read fora or letters from fans. He sees that movies got better than expected, he is told that merchandise is being sold like hot buns, that movies will be watched worldwide. He is again an author of the bestseller, only this time no one will tell him what to do.
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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by h0kuten » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:12 am

It would probably take a petition on Reddit with some Japanese translator trying to advocate for an interview with Toriyama, maybe on Skype or something? All of the users from a variety of Dragonball forums would have to get together to make it happen.

Hell, if they can get Bill Gates I'm sure we could get Toriyama.

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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by Thouser » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:14 am

Doctor. wrote:
Thouser wrote:These millions of unborn future Dragon Ball fans haven't seen DB, DBZ, or Kai either.
And what would be more pragmatic? Watching DB, then Z, then Super? Or watching DB, then Z, then Battle of Gods and F, then Super?
Obviously the most pragmatic would be watching none at all.

If some hypothetical person in the future is willing to invest all the hundreds of hours necessary to watch DB, DBZ, and DBSuper, I doubt that adding a couple of 90 minute movies into the equation would suddenly be a deal-breaker.
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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by h0kuten » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:24 am

Most problematic would be watching Z, BoG, FnF than Super as opposed to, Z, Super, BoG, FnF

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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by Araki » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:32 am

Thouser wrote:If some hypothetical person in the future is willing to invest all the hundreds of hours necessary to watch DB, DBZ, and DBSuper, I doubt that adding a couple of 90 minute movies into the equation would suddenly be a deal-breaker.
The problem is that can also become confusing for future new fans. Dragon Ball has so many movies but all except two are irrelevant to the plot?

Expecting someone to watch series-series-series in a natural order is a much more logical path than series-series-one of the movies-another movie-series.
Especially for shonen franchises, where movies are typically side adventures.
Last edited by Araki on Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by DemonRin » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:35 am

I know this is a post from the first page, but I didn't see anyone specifically address or correct this so I feel I need to.
h0kuten wrote:It's slow.
Z was fast.
Nowhere near it. Super Is starting the BoG arc now. The fighting starts in Episode 5. Chances are good we're gonna have this arc wrapped up by episode 10, 16 at the latest. Z took 35 Episodes to finish the Saiyan arc, then till episode 107 to finish the Namek/Freeza arc. I can't watch the Namek portion of Z anymore due to how god awful slow it is. I NEED to watch Kai to watch that Material in animated form.

Super by its very nature is much faster than DBZ as a whole because since it doesn't have to work to stay behind a manga that's presently running, they don't have to have horridly slow pacing like DBZ.
h0kuten wrote:Not a lot of action in the first 4 episodes.
Z started the action from the 1rst episode.
Nope. I don't know what show you watched, but Z had exactly NO action in the first episode. The first episode was just Gohan getting lost in a forest and messing around all episode. The "Action" didn't start until episode 2.

Super at least has Beers destroying planets and stuff during the action of the first few episodes.
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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by Thouser » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:42 am

Araki wrote:
Thouser wrote:If some hypothetical person in the future is willing to invest all the hundreds of hours necessary to watch DB, DBZ, and DBSuper, I doubt that adding a couple of 90 minute movies into the equation would suddenly be a deal-breaker.
The problem is that can also become confusing for future new fans. Dragon Ball has so many movies but all except two are irrelevant to the plot?

Expecting someone to watch series-series-series in a natural order is a much more logical path than series-series-one of the movies-another movie-series.
I agree it's a little odd but hardly confusing. It could be explained in two seconds.
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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by Araki » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:51 am

DemonRin wrote:Nope. I don't know what show you watched, but Z had exactly NO action in the first episode. The first episode was just Gohan getting lost in a forest and messing around all episode. The "Action" didn't start until episode 2.

Super at least has Beers destroying planets and stuff during the action of the first few episodes.
I think the reason some people are finding Super "slow" is similar to why manga readers get impatient watching anime adaptations. They know the story, so they want the anime to get to a certain point or see an arc over with asap. Everything not in the original version can feel like filler, even if characters are getting more exposition or development.

I mean, everyone watched BoG, while in DB/Z, very few people outside Japan read the manga before watching the animation, so the pacing was hardly an issue back then. If one forgets the movie or didn't watch it at all, judging the series by what it is, then the impression will be certainly very different.

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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:54 am

Araki wrote:
DemonRin wrote:Nope. I don't know what show you watched, but Z had exactly NO action in the first episode. The first episode was just Gohan getting lost in a forest and messing around all episode. The "Action" didn't start until episode 2.

Super at least has Beers destroying planets and stuff during the action of the first few episodes.
I think the reason some people are finding Super "slow" is similar to why manga readers get impatient watching anime adaptations. They know the story, so they want the anime to get to a certain point or see an arc over with asap. Everything can feel like paddling, even if characters are getting more exposition or development.

I mean, everyone watched BoG, while in DB/Z, very few people outside Japan read the manga before watching the animation, so the pacing was hardly an issue back then. If one ignores the movie or didn't watch it at all, then the impression will be certainly very different.
It also doesn't help that adapting BoG and FnF is pointless, we have those stories told! Just jump off from where the last movie left things and get on with what people want. Sure future generations won't care cause they'll just ignore BoG & FnF but for people right now it's freaking illogical and aggravating.

Hell, Super easily could've just been set after FnF. In the age of the Internet, which last time i checked isn't going extinct, what could possibly stop people from googling and seeing that the order is: DB, DBZ, BoG, FnF, Super? I mean, people are stupid, especially on the Internet, but surely they couldn't mess up an order like that.... Right?
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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:12 pm

How awesome would it be if F was not made, Super began with a 30 minute recap of the Buu saga and BoG, and the first arc had to do with Frieza's return? Can anybody imagine how hyped everyone would be to hear that? Not as hyped as post-EoZ content, mind you, but certainly more excited than knowing they have to sit through two entire arcs based on content that already exists.

Mind you, I'm all for a cohesive product, but we're roughly getting 14-20 episodes of rehashed material on a show that only airs once a week. To top it all off, the tone is simply not "DBZ." That's... weak.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by VintageSaiyan » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:36 pm

sintzu wrote:
VintageSaiyan wrote: The story, characters, animation - the whole production is shit. It's lazy and it's a slap in the face to every fan out there. They release 2 shitty movies and now they're releasing a series that retells those 2 movies, except even shittier.
You'd probably say the same thing regardless of what we got.
That is the single most dumbest thing I've read, not to mention completely untrue and unjustified. It's almost too easy to flip it around and say you'd probably eat up anything that came out of Toei and Akira Toriyama regardless of the quality (which seems to be the case).
SpiritBombTriumphant wrote: Yeah, I just looked at his post history. Every damn comment he's made on here (except one about Goku's SSJ transformation in the dub) are all hate comments. He's just continually cursing and insulting the series/Toei/Toriyama in every post he makes. Just ignore him if he gets troublesome.
I'm an irate fanboy, I'll admit it and won't try to hide any of it - I'm irate at the shit that is modern dragonball. Maybe if it didn't suck so hard my post history would be different. You know what really brings out my irate fanboy though? People like you who defend this bottom of the totem pole production as if it has any worth outside of the $$$ Toei is making, simply because it's dragonball.

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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by Doctor. » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:45 pm

I'd consider easing up a bit, there's a way to talk about how much modern Dragon Ball sucks without putting into question what kind of fan the other person is. This goes for both sides, naturally.

Yes, it's sad that the series will probably never get as good as the Saiyan and Namek arcs again. But, I for one, think Super's first arc is much better than the first arc of the original series so far, and I love the Hunt for the DBs arc.

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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by h0kuten » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:51 pm

Dragonball Z is much faster than Super has been and will continue to be.

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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by Doctor. » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:53 pm

h0kuten wrote:Dragonball Z is much faster than Super has been and will continue to be.
You continue to say this without presenting any proof. Multiple people in this thread have told you that Z has a much higher episode count per arc and the action in Super has started earlier, yet you continue to say Z has a faster pacing when that's simply not true.

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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by EXBadguy » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:53 pm

h0kuten wrote:Dragonball Z is much faster than Super has been and will continue to be.
I sure as hell hope you ain't talking about the original Z.
Eire wrote: I would love to see DBS as new, badass epic with lots of world building and consistency, but knowing Toriyama I don't think that will happen. You say- improve. But what if he just can't think about bigger picture, check facts, incorporate symbolism, play with tropes and so on. He is not Hiromu Arakawa or Riyko Ikeda to plan things in advance and put work into details. Writing stories is not a medicine practice when you learn new standards every 3 years. I really, really doubt that mature author can change his ways of writing.
'Kay, so what if Toriyama decides to make a chapter/episode about Buu's flashbacks, and then have a flashback scene of Super Buu or Fat Buu destroying the earth instead of Kid Buu? How would you feel?
Eire wrote:Besides why should he? Does he get any negative feedback? Probably not from Toei where his name means extra money. I doubt that he personally read fora or letters from fans. He sees that movies got better than expected, he is told that merchandise is being sold like hot buns, that movies will be watched worldwide. He is again an author of the bestseller, only this time no one will tell him what to do.
That's why I sometimes wish that Toei shouldn't have never called Toriyama in the first place. I'd rather have somebody else who knows the DB world well to do the story. I'd still call Toriyama, but I would only assign him to only do the background designs.
Last edited by EXBadguy on Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Marco Polo wrote:Goku Black is a fan of DBZ who hates Super and has taken the form of a younger Goku (thinner shape, softer hair) to avenge the original series by destroying the new.

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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by h0kuten » Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:58 pm

EXBadguy wrote:
h0kuten wrote:Dragonball Z is much faster than Super has been and will continue to be.
I sure as hell hope you ain't talking about the original Z.
Yup.

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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by ParkerAL » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:42 pm

So far, I'd say Dragon Ball Super and other modern Dragon Ball works have walked a fine line between being genuinely good and being mediocre. The inconsistencies and sub-par visuals hold them back from greatness, to a somewhat more noticeable extent than with the first anime. Toriyama's original manga is probably the pinnacle of quality we'll ever get from the franchise. We have to get used to newer works not living up to the expectations it established.
EXBadguy wrote:Just imagine if the first two DVD seasons of Super flopped hard. What would that have to say about retelling the last two movies? For the retelling itself, I have nothing to say.
I highly doubt Toei is banking on DVD sales to make money on Dragon Ball Super. This isn't a late-night Otaku production aimed at recouping its costs through BD and DVD releases. It's a daytime Shonen series, which means it exists to advertise other forms of merchandising (toys, games, ect). TV ratings will probably contribute more to it's metric of success than home video sales. That side of the business isn't as large a market in Japan as it is in the U.S. and other western countries.
VintageSaiyan wrote:You know what really brings out my irate fanboy though? People like you who defend this bottom of the totem pole production as if it has any worth outside of the $$$ Toei is making, simply because it's dragonball.
My rough translation:
Different opinions make me angry!
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Re: What's up with Toriyama and Toei?

Post by Eire » Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:45 pm

'Kay, so what if Toriyama decides to make a chapter/episode about Buu's flashbacks, and then have a flashback scene of Super Buu or Fat Buu destroying the earth instead of Kid Buu? How would you feel?
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised. But what I can do, besides complaining on forum and deciding that there are better ways to waste my money on?

I agree wholeheartedly with your propositions, but I really doubt that they will happen. Toriyama is not going to improve, because he never bothered about it in a first place and now he is a star. He is not going to name his successor (like Tezuka did wit Dezaki), because he haven't trained any (besides it would probably cost him a lot). I want a cheese, but I can't expect milk from old horse.
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