Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by Doctor. » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:26 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:As for Goku, his character development stopped after the Freeza arc.
Passing the torch? Acknowledging defeat? Not trying to have a fair fight (he gave Cell a senzu but then tried to fight him along with Gohan)?

These are aspects of his character that were never shown before.

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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by funrush » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:29 pm

Mystic Tien wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: I see the Buu arc as the downfall. The Cell stuff was a big decline sure but fuck was 95% of the Buu Saga just monotonous and boring. New powers ups, techniques and transformations getting introduced up the ass then thrown under the bus almost as quickly as they show up, dragging it out until it finally ended.
Buu arc was sure a major let down for me. The 1st part is great, simply awesome. But the 2nd part on the other hand... And it shows. With all of the new material. At this point story and everything else becomes only worse. Maybe it was because Toriyama didn't really want to work on Dragon Ball anymore, maybe he got out of ideas. I dunno.
I'd be more mad about the Buu arc screwing Gohan over attention wise, because I really don't think Goku's character had anything left after Cell while Gohan's was just starting up, but Goku's presence got to give Vegeta this great character arc closure thing so I'm not too mad about it. Goten and Trunks were ridiculously overpowered though. Gohan had to watch his friends get brutally murdered and harness that sadness and anger to achieve what he wanted to, plus multiple years of rigorous training. Goten and Trunks got bored and just magically did it.
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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by sbk » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:32 pm

Success-wise, hardly. The Android arc is like the second most iconic and popular arc after the Freeza arc.

Quality-wise, yes. The Saiyan-Freeza arcs were so flawless, Android arc just doesn't compare. At some points it actually got boring, and the writing got noticeably shoddier.
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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by Mystic Tien » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:33 pm

funrush wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: I see the Buu arc as the downfall. The Cell stuff was a big decline sure but fuck was 95% of the Buu Saga just monotonous and boring. New powers ups, techniques and transformations getting introduced up the ass then thrown under the bus almost as quickly as they show up, dragging it out until it finally ended.
Buu arc was sure a major let down for me. The 1st part is great, simply awesome. But the 2nd part on the other hand... And it shows. With all of the new material. At this point story and everything else becomes only worse. Maybe it was because Toriyama didn't really want to work on Dragon Ball anymore, maybe he got out of ideas. I dunno.
I'd be more mad about the Buu arc screwing Gohan over attention wise, because I really don't think Goku's character had anything left after Cell while Gohan's was just starting up, but Goku's presence got to give Vegeta this great character arc closure thing so I'm not too mad about it. Goten and Trunks were ridiculously overpowered though. Gohan had to watch his friends get brutally murdered and harness that sadness and anger to achieve what he wanted to, plus multiple years of rigorous training. Goten and Trunks got bored and just magically did it.
Yeah, though to be fair, Future Trunks achieved it quite easily in the manga as well, at the very least before Gohan died. Didn't like kids being as strong as they were too.
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Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:47 pm

Passing the torch?
Goku took back the torch after the young generation dropped the ball in the Majin Boo arc and Vegeta pissed on the flame.
Acknowledging defeat?
Goku acknowledged defeat before the fight even began, and that was only because he knew Gohan would win anyway. Hell, throwing the fight wasn't even genuine, it just a part of his plan.
Not trying to have a fair fight (he gave Cell a senzu but then tried to fight him along with Gohan)?
Goku during the Red Ribbon Army arc and the King Piccolo arc fought unfairly a lot.

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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by Insertclevername » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:33 pm

I think the Cell arc is fine. The arc while certainly not the best, does know how to deliver on drama, as well give a tone to the series that we had yet to see. I also don't really get how Gohan acted out of character but okay.

I'd probably make the argument that Dragon Ball took a hit around Boo if anything but even then it still has lots of elements that hold it up. I'm sure if Toriyama had continued we'd see a lot of the flaw's present in the Boo arc become more prominent.
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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by the1payday » Wed Aug 12, 2015 11:09 pm

If anything marked the downfall, it would be the Boo saga, in my opinion. Granted, there were parts of the Boo saga I loved, but if I had to pick one it would be that one.

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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by LuckyCat » Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:17 am

Lord Beerus wrote:In hindsight, the Cell arc would have never happened if they listened to Bulma and used the Dragon Balls to locate where Gero was, find him and kill him.
Sorry for quoting your post as many people have said this and will say it but I don't think Bulma's idea to take out Gero jives with Goku/Z Fighters at all. Goku actually makes a good point; in their timeline Gero hadn't done anything wrong yet and was still capable of changing his mind. It's like in Terminator 2 where Sarah Connor plans to kill Dyson For his role in creating Skynet, but later Conner realizes Dyson isn't the real villain in her story. Of course, Gero really is a bad guy but I can't imagine Goku not giving him a chance before killing him.
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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by Sayo-chan » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:31 am

Is it ever actually stated the Artificial Humans aren't functional? How would Trunks know? All he knows is when he appears, right? It could lead to premature deaths, not to mention Cell would just be delayed until after the Boo saga, running into the same problem as before.
Most Dragon Ball fans are incapable of making a logically sound argument.

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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by LuckyCat » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:22 am

Sayo-chan wrote:Is it ever actually stated the Artificial Humans aren't functional? How would Trunks know? All he knows is when he appears, right? It could lead to premature deaths, not to mention Cell would just be delayed until after the Boo saga, running into the same problem as before.
There aren't any details given about the Androids' activation so we can only speculate. But I don't think not using the dragon balls in a clever way is an Android-arc specific critique.
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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by Doctor. » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:32 am

LuckyCat wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:In hindsight, the Cell arc would have never happened if they listened to Bulma and used the Dragon Balls to locate where Gero was, find him and kill him.
Sorry for quoting your post as many people have said this and will say it but I don't think Bulma's idea to take out Gero jives with Goku/Z Fighters at all. Goku actually makes a good point; in their timeline Gero hadn't done anything wrong yet and was still capable of changing his mind. It's like in Terminator 2 where Sarah Connor plans to kill Dyson For his role in creating Skynet, but later Conner realizes Dyson isn't the real villain in her story. Of course, Gero really is a bad guy but I can't imagine Goku not giving him a chance before killing him.
He worked for the Red Ribbon Army! What do you mean he did nothing wrong?

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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by sintzu » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:49 am

How many Shonen can you name that will take out the story's established main characters (Goku,Vegeta&Piccolo) in favor of having a completely new character (Trunks) be the focus and hero of the story's second main arc alongside a character (Gohan) who was previously a secondary character ? So to answer you're question,No and if anything it was a major step up for the franchise thanks to it introducing a great new main character and turning a secondary character into a main one but unfortunately both characters alongside Piccolo were taken out of the Buu arc for some reason so if anything the question should be about the Buu arc.
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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by LuckyCat » Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:58 pm

Doctor. wrote:He worked for the Red Ribbon Army! What do you mean he did nothing wrong?
And Dyson worked for Skynet but still could change his mind about the project. As far as we knew when Trunks came, Gero hadn't done anything wrong, simple as that. There were other cyborgs in the old Red Ribbon arc but the credit for those went to Dr. Frappe.
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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:49 am

LuckyCat wrote:
Doctor. wrote:He worked for the Red Ribbon Army! What do you mean he did nothing wrong?
And Dyson worked for Skynet but still could change his mind about the project. As far as we knew when Trunks came, Gero hadn't done anything wrong, simple as that. There were other cyborgs in the old Red Ribbon arc but the credit for those went to Dr. Frappe.
Difference is Dyson worked for Cyberdyne and was building what he thought would be a defense system for the military. He believed he was doing good and saving lives. If Skynet had worked as designed, it would've saved the lives of troops in combat. However, he didn't foresee Skynet turning on all of humanity. That's the difference. Dr. Gero doesn't have ignorance to fall back on. In fact, Ha-chan was considered a failure because it didn't want to harm anyone. Dr. Frappe is anime only filler.
and if anything it was a major step up for the franchise thanks to it introducing a great new main character and turning a secondary character into a main one but unfortunately both characters alongside Piccolo were taken out of the Buu arc for some reason so if anything the question should be about the Buu arc.
I don't watch much anime, but it's not uncommon for secondary or new characters to get the spotlight, but I also wouldn't consider someone taking the main characters spot to be a major step up.
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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by LuckyCat » Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:22 am

ABED wrote:Difference is Dyson worked for Cyberdyne and was building what he thought would be a defense system for the military. He believed he was doing good and saving lives. If Skynet had worked as designed, it would've saved the lives of troops in combat. However, he didn't foresee Skynet turning on all of humanity. That's the difference. Dr. Gero doesn't have ignorance to fall back on. In fact, Ha-chan was considered a failure because it didn't want to harm anyone. Dr. Frappe is anime only filler.
Dr. Frappe is at least listed in Daizenshu 7. If we go the manga canon route Gero was never in the old arcs and there's nothing that says he made No. 8 or Sergeant metallic. If the info is that sketchy for us readers, do we really expect Goku and his crew with even less info to go off on a vigilante quest?
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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:18 am

It's not a vigilante quest. They know Dr. Gero is behind the cyborgs that will kill them, and he was part of the Red Ribbon Army. Lastly, the chart at the back of manga volume 31 or so implies Dr. Gero was the one who created all of the cyborgs. I wouldn't take the Daizenshu as gospel.
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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:13 pm

Gero was intentionally building murder bots to kill them and most of the human race, they know this, they can find and stop him before any of this can come to pass but they don't cause.... its not fair? No, fuck them and fairness. If you know some old bastards petty revenge scheme is gonna cause the apocalypse, you hunt the bastard down and introduce him to the business end of a shotgun. Imagine if Skynet built the time machine in Terminator and was like "Well.... its not really fair for us to kill a baby who hasn't done anything against us technically sssoooo we're not gonna murder him before he's born."

Hell, if Trunks had a working brain he should've just given Goku the antidote for the virus, find the DBs himself and slice & dice Gero himself before any of this can happen so the good guys can keep their "integrity".
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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by LuckyCat » Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:56 pm

ABED wrote:It's not a vigilante quest. They know Dr. Gero is behind the cyborgs that will kill them, and he was part of the Red Ribbon Army. Lastly, the chart at the back of manga volume 31 or so implies Dr. Gero was the one who created all of the cyborgs. I wouldn't take the Daizenshu as gospel.
It is, because Gero hadn't done anything wrong yet and was still innocent. My whole argument has been it would have been out of character for Goku/Z fighters do pre-emptively kill someone. They always wait for trouble to find them, not the other way around. And Goku has some moral justification for it; his timeline is already different than where Trunks came from (Trunks killed Freeza, not Goku. Goku won't die and can fight the androids).
ekrolo2 wrote:Hell, if Trunks had a working brain he should've just given Goku the antidote for the virus, find the DBs himself and slice & dice Gero himself before any of this can happen so the good guys can keep their "integrity".
Maybe that's what you'd do, maybe that's what I'd do. But Goku and the other Z fighters? They say balls to strategy and let the fight come to them.
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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:13 pm

LuckyCat wrote:
ABED wrote:It's not a vigilante quest. They know Dr. Gero is behind the cyborgs that will kill them, and he was part of the Red Ribbon Army. Lastly, the chart at the back of manga volume 31 or so implies Dr. Gero was the one who created all of the cyborgs. I wouldn't take the Daizenshu as gospel.
It is, because Gero hadn't done anything wrong yet and was still innocent. My whole argument has been it would have been out of character for Goku/Z fighters do pre-emptively kill someone. They always wait for trouble to find them, not the other way around. And Goku has some moral justification for it; his timeline is already different than where Trunks came from (Trunks killed Freeza, not Goku. Goku won't die and can fight the androids).
That doesn't really work as a justification as Gero worked for the Red Ribbon Army of his own free will and was building murder bots before Goku brought the whole organization down and he's intending to do it again which will cause decades of death and destruction for the Earth. He's not innocent and deserves to die. His timeline is also only different because of Trunks' direct intervention, why should Goku think everythings going to be different everywhere just because Trunks showed up this one time at this one specific place?
ekrolo2 wrote:Hell, if Trunks had a working brain he should've just given Goku the antidote for the virus, find the DBs himself and slice & dice Gero himself before any of this can happen so the good guys can keep their "integrity".
Maybe that's what you'd do, maybe that's what I'd do. But Goku and the other Z fighters? They say balls to strategy and let the fight come to them.[/quote]

And that is precisely why I loathe and despise them throughout this entire arc. They're stupidity caused the deaths of thousands upon thousands of people, got Goku & Future Trunks killed, nearly got Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta AND Gohan nearly killed as well and then they just wish everything back to normal and they never, not once stop to think "We.... kinda screwed up here, a LOT. We should probably be smarter in the future." But because this is Dragon Ball, the protagonists can't be aware of things any intelligent person is, they've gotta be moron who win just because their enemies are even stupider than them.

If ANY other show did this kind of crap, it would be mauled, ridiculed and laughed at forever for its piss poor writing. But not Dragon Ball because.... reasons....
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Re: Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

Post by LuckyCat » Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:17 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:That doesn't really work as a justification as Gero worked for the Red Ribbon Army of his own free will and was building murder bots before Goku brought the whole organization down and he's intending to do it again which will cause decades of death and destruction for the Earth. He's not innocent and deserves to die. His timeline is also only different because of Trunks' direct intervention, why should Goku think everythings going to be different everywhere just because Trunks showed up this one time at this one specific place?
Not just because of Trunks' intervention but also because Goku is now there to confront the Androids. Goku has turned villains around before. Many (like Piccolo and Vegeta) have become his allies. Why would he suddenly change his personality and become a "no mercy" type of fighter?
ekrolo2 wrote:And that is precisely why I loathe and despise them throughout this entire arc.
Actually if they followed the plan you outlined Trunks' own timeline would still be screwed. Remember part of Trunks' motivation was to learn from Goku by watching him fight the Androids and then use that to destroy his own timeline's androids.
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