Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

[ABED]

I don't think it was the downfall of the series. Is the show as good as it once was? Not in my estimation, but i still like it and parts of the Buu arc. It's like most shows or movie series. Take The Office for instance. Season 2, 3, and 4 were the best, but I still enjoy the other ones even if they weren't as consistently good as the series at its peak.

he's free to change his mind about the way he acts and what his values are.

He is, but it's very sudden, and there doesn't seem like there's much of an impetus for it. My issue with it is that what does he expect to happen when he tells Cell he doesn't want to fight?

[Kamiccolo9]

And I'd counter that with Gohan has gone through A LOT of growth since then, and as a part of the adolescence process he's going through, he's free to change his mind about the way he acts and what his values are. He was still just "a kid" on Namek, and while he's still a tween at best, he's seen some shit. He's making a stand, and good for him on that. He's seen what happens to himself when anger takes control, and he was right - look at the way he acts when he turns Super Saiyan 2. It's exactly what he's saying he's afraid of becoming.

A character changing their mind and acting differently does not inherently mean "out-of-character". If all characters acted exactly the same way for their entire existence, they'd be real damn boring.

I've changed my mind about a lot of stuff over the course of my life so far, and I'm sure I'll change my mind even more about some of that. I act a lot differently than I would have theoretically done and outright did physically act in prior, similar circumstances. That's being human. Gohan's part human!

Not to mention, for Gohan, there are three timeskips between the Namek Arc and his fight with Cell. I don't see how any real analysis of Gohan's character can fail to take into account that we're not there to see 5 years of his life after the fight with Freeza.

[ABED]

But nothing changed in those timeskips. He was gung ho to help out for the entire arc. If he changed, it was off screen. Gohan changes? Fine, but show us.

[Mystic Tien]

He is, but it's very sudden, and there doesn't seem like there's much of an impetus for it. My issue with it is that what does he expect to happen when he tells Cell he doesn't want to fight?

But it is not really sudden, about 5 years passed after ending of Namek saga. People change in a less amount of time. Vegeta settled down on Earth in this period after all.

[VegettoEX]

Gohan changes? Fine, but show us.

They did. He began acting differently.

It's not much different from Vegeta having the new form in the new Freeza movie. We never saw it happen, but apparently it did. You don't have to like it, but there it is.

[Zanza]

And I'd counter that with Gohan has gone through A LOT of growth since then, and as a part of the adolescence process he's going through, he's free to change his mind about the way he acts and what his values are. He was still just "a kid" on Namek, and while he's still a tween at best, he's seen some shit. He's making a stand, and good for him on that. He's seen what happens to himself when anger takes control, and he was right - look at the way he acts when he turns Super Saiyan 2. It's exactly what he's saying he's afraid of becoming.

A character changing their mind and acting differently does not inherently mean "out-of-character". If all characters acted exactly the same way for their entire existence, they'd be real damn boring.

I've changed my mind about a lot of stuff over the course of my life so far, and I'm sure I'll change my mind even more about some of that. I act a lot differently than I would have theoretically done and outright did physically act in prior, similar circumstances. That's being human. Gohan's part human!

The problem is that we never see any sort of development as to why Gohan suddenly becomes a, for lack of a better word, pacifist. Nobody's saying it's impossible for Gohan to ever feel that way, but without the proper development to lead up to it, it just seems like nothing more but a character inconsistency made for the sake of drama.

[Doctor.]

Spoiler:

He was fighting, he just didn't like to fight, he just didn't think the fight had any purpose. Do you honestly think that Gohan in the Namek arc thought all of those battles he fought had a purpose beyond saving the lives of his friends? Everything was okay here, he wasn't fighting because he needed to, there was no need to fight if he could convince Cell of it and Gohan acknowledges this.

We have no confirmation of whether or not those soldiers died, it seems pretty unlikely two hits killed them.

We're talking here about a complex character people want to pass off as being inconsistent, that's not ok.

[ABED]

He is, but it's very sudden, and there doesn't seem like there's much of an impetus for it. My issue with it is that what does he expect to happen when he tells Cell he doesn't want to fight?

But it is not really sudden, about 5 years passed after ending of Namek saga. People change in a less amount of time. Vegeta settled down on Earth in this period after all.

But we see Vegeta change, we don't see Gohan change. He didn't change in those years after the Freeza arc. He's the same kid who was eager to help and fight if need be.

They did. He began acting differently.

Without reason, and all of the sudden.

[Zanza]

Spoiler:

He was fighting, he just didn't like to fight, he just didn't think the fight had any purpose. Do you honestly think that Gohan in the Namek arc thought all of those battles he fought had a purpose beyond saving the lives of his friends? Everything was okay here, he wasn't fighting because he needed to, there was no need to fight if he could convince Cell of it and Gohan acknowledges this.

We have no confirmation of whether or not those soldiers died, it seems pretty unlikely two hits killed them.

We're talking here about a complex character people want to pass off as being inconsistent, that's not ok.

But what made him think that Cell would even consider giving up? Gohan should know better by now.

And IIRC, I think the Daizenshuu confirmed those soldiers to be dead.

[ABED]

There are lots of parts in the Cell arc and the Buu arc that are so good that I'd rather not do without. However, if they never existed, there wouldn't be anything to miss. That said, there was still plenty of story left to tell after the Freeza arc, such as Vegeta's story, which was by and large well done.

[Doctor.]

But what made him think that Cell would even consider giving up? Gohan should know better by now.

And IIRC, I think the Daizenshuu confirmed those soldiers to be dead.

I don't know, maybe Piccolo? He tells Piccolo that his dad told him how once he was a really mean guy but then he later on becomes his friend. Maybe he thought that Cell could give up, he was trying to intimidate him with the "I may lose control" line, after all.

Doesn't necessarily mean they were killed by Gohan and Kuririn, all of Freeza's soldiers (that accompanied him to the planet) died on Namek.

I suggest reading PenguinTruth's analysis of the character for a better counterargument to this whole "he's out of character" debate.

[Mystic Tien]

Spoiler:

He was fighting, he just didn't like to fight, he just didn't think the fight had any purpose. Do you honestly think that Gohan in the Namek arc thought all of those battles he fought had a purpose beyond saving the lives of his friends? Everything was okay here, he wasn't fighting because he needed to, there was no need to fight if he could convince Cell of it and Gohan acknowledges this.

We have no confirmation of whether or not those soldiers died, it seems pretty unlikely two hits killed them.

We're talking here about a complex character people want to pass off as being inconsistent, that's not ok.

But what made him think that Cell would even consider giving up? Gohan should know better by now.

And IIRC, I think the Daizenshuu confirmed those soldiers to be dead.

Well, he had Goku's and Gohan's genes, and Piccolo's as well, there is it.

[ABED]

Gohan never saw Piccolo's wickedness for himself and he was far younger and more naive when he did befriend him.

Maybe he thought that Cell could give up, he was trying to intimidate him with the "I may lose control" line, after all.

I think the scene would've played differently had Gohan been trying to intimidate him.

I don't mind characters changing, but don't go from A to Z without even indicating how he got there.

[Doctor.]

I don't mind characters changing, but don't go from A to Z without even indicating how he got there.

How is he going from A to Z? Even if there was a change, how is going from "doesn't like to fight, but fights when it's necessary" to "doesn't like to fight, but hesitates to fight when it's necessary" a drastic change?

[Kamiccolo9]

And why are we demanding consistency in a preteen?

[ABED]

I don't mind characters changing, but don't go from A to Z without even indicating how he got there.

How is it going from A to Z? Even if there was a change, how is going from "not liking to fight, but fights when it's necessary" to "not liking to fight, but hesitates to fight when it's necessary" a drastic change?

It's a huge change, what brought on that change? Why is he hesitant? What happened?

And people keep bringing up how Gohan doesn't like to fight. He's certainly not a battle maniac, but he's not reluctant either.

And why are we demanding consistency in a preteen?

Now i think we're stretching in order to justify inconsistent characterization. If the character changes, at least indicate why. When Vegeta changed, we knew why. He settled down because the object of his obsession and greatest enemy was dead. He felt like he had little purpose. That's one of the things I like about the ending, there was justification for Vegeta's changes and the changes were surprising and refreshing.

[VintageSaiyan]

I don't see it wildly OOC. He was always hesitant to fight, starting with the Vegeta saga. It looked more to me that at this point he knew full well what he was capable of due to the Saiyan and Namek arcs, and even states this (in the dub, at least) - and was afraid of exactly what happened when he went SS2. His source of power always came from anger and he had every right to be scared of what he would become if he let go.

[Doctor.]

It's a huge change, what brought on that change? Why is he hesitant? What happened?

Huge? Huge?

Let's make this clear: He goes to Namek to resurrect a bunch of people that died in a fight that he constantly kept running away from, including a father figure that sacrificed himself for him when he was too scared to move. Not only that, if he and the others died on Namek, it would be game over. So, he fights; for others, not for himself.

In the Cell Games, everyone of his friends is alive. And Cell is someone he has never met before, and has no grudge against. He's also suddenly put in the spotlight and is expected to beat and kill Cell when he knows almost nothing about his opponent. Still, he fights, for what purpose? None, he thinks, there's no reason to fight since everything's okay, he's not fighting for the others, if only Cell stopped his Game, then nobody would have to get hurt.

And you can't understand how he could possibly be somewhat hesitant to want to continue the fight and kill Cell? You don't think he has a reason to act this way, not one?

If he continued to be hesitant to kill Cell even after he went SS2 and Goku died, then you'd have a point. But at this point in time, he has little personal reason to hate Cell.

And people keep bringing up how Gohan doesn't like to fight. He's certainly not a battle maniac, but he's not reluctant either.

And that's why he was still fighting Cell.

He doesn't like to fight unnecessarily.

[Mystic Tien]

It's a huge change, what brought on that change? Why is he hesitant? What happened?

Huge? Huge?

Let's make this clear: He goes to Namek to resurrect a bunch of people that died in a fight that he constantly kept running away from, including a father figure that sacrificed himself for him when he was too scared to move. Not only that, if he and the others died on Namek, it would be game over. So, he fights; for others, not for himself.

In the Cell Games, everyone of his friends is alive. And Cell is someone he has never met before, and has no grudge against. He's also suddenly put in the spotlight and is expected to beat and kill Cell when he knows almost nothing about his opponent. Still, he fights, for what purpose? None, he thinks, there's no reason to fight since everything's okay, he's not fighting for the others, if only Cell stopped his Game, then nobody would have to get hurt.

And you can't understand how he could possibly be somewhat hesitant to want to continue the fight and kill Cell? You don't think he has a reason to act this way, not one?

And people keep bringing up how Gohan doesn't like to fight. He's certainly not a battle maniac, but he's not reluctant either.

And that's why he was still fighting Cell.

He doesn't like to fight unnecessarily.

He also had genes of Gohan, his father and mentor, so he possibly thought that he would understand. Was wrong though.

[ABED]

I don't see it wildly OOC. He was always hesitant to fight, starting with the Vegeta saga. It looked more to me that at this point he knew full well what he was capable of due to the Saiyan and Namek arcs, and even states this (in the dub, at least) - and was afraid of exactly what happened when he went SS2. His source of power always came from anger and he had every right to be scared of what he would become if he let go.

In the Vegeta arc he was of course hesitant because he had never done it before, and a lot was being asked of him. However, by the end of the arc, he dealt with that. After that, he was more than willing to throw himself into a fight, even one he knew he couldn't win.

So, he fights; for others, not for himself.

First off, he is fighting for others against Cell as well, and second, other people are a value TO HIM!

He doesn't like to fight unnecessarily.

This fight was the very definition of neccessary.

And Cell is someone he has never met before,

He knows the type.

Still, he fights, for what purpose? None, he thinks, there's no reason to fight since everything's okay, he's not fighting for the others, if only Cell stopped his Game, then nobody would have to get hurt.

He is fighting for a purpose, to save himself, the world, his friends, everything he cares about. What about Cell was so different that he didn't do the same against Freeza?