Did the Android arc mark the downfall of Dragon Ball?

[Doctor.]

He is fighting for a purpose, to save himself, the world, his friends, everything he cares about. What about Cell was so different that he didn't do the same against Freeza?

Yes, and that could have all been avoided if he convinced Cell to give up.

Because he met Freeza a few minutes after landing on Namek, he saw him kill a child, he knew exactly what he was capable of and had a personal grudge against him, not to mention that he still had his dad on the way, so he wasn't EXPECTED to save the day like some kind of hero.

[ABED]

He is fighting for a purpose, to save himself, the world, his friends, everything he cares about. What about Cell was so different that he didn't do the same against Freeza?

Yes, and that could have all been avoided if he convinced Cell to give up.

Because he met Freeza a few minutes after landing on Namek, he saw him kill a child, he knew exactly what he was capable of and had a personal grudge against him, not to mention that he still had his dad on the way, so he wasn't EXPECTED to save the day like some kind of hero.

Does he need to see Cell do the things he did? He knows Cell murdered hundreds, if not thousands of innocents. What indication did Gohan have that Cell could be convinced of anything?

Also, I don't buy the argument that because Gohan knew his father was on the way that justifies him throwing himself in harms way when he didn't know when his father would arrive. When the Ginyu Force arrived, he didn't hesitate, and they had yet to do anything to him or anyone. Yet, he didn't hesitate to fight. Goku was on the way but he didn't know when exactly he would arrive.

[Doctor.]

Does he need to see Cell do the things he did? He knows Cell murdered hundreds, if not thousands of innocents. What indication did Gohan have that Cell could be convinced of anything?

Would you feel more hate towards someone who murdered another person in front of you, or a serial killer you've never met?

Also, I don't buy the argument that because Gohan knew his father was on the way that justifies him throwing himself in harms way when he didn't know when his father would arrive. When the Ginyu Force arrived, he didn't hesitate, and they had yet to do anything to him or anyone. Yet, he didn't hesitate to fight. Goku was on the way but he didn't know when exactly he would arrive.

Goku is his moral support. He makes a whole speech about being Goku's son to use as motivation to fight Recoome, he needed his father's support to combat Cell's Kamhameha. He didn't hesitate to fight Cell, how many times does this have to be stated? He was still fighting him. He just didn't want to kill people unnecessarily, nothing tells us he would have killed the Ginyu Force members if he had the chance.

[Kid Buu]

I'd say the decline started when Goku beat Tao. I felt like it was the beginning of the series repetition and around the time where it was established no one could truly catch up to Goku.

[MajinMan]

I don't think Dragon Ball ever really had a "downfall," but it is the weakest arc in the Z era to me. The villains were uninteresting, a lot of the characters were annoying, and the lack of involvement from Gohan. I see a lot of people say that SSJ2 Gohan is their favorite character(not in Kanzenshuu, just in general) and I really don't see why. The main word that comes up is that he's badass, and while he does have badass moments, as soon as his father dies he turns into a wuss that won't even TRY to stop Cell's kamehameha. If it wasn't for Goku YELLING in his ear constantly, everyone would've died. And don't tell me that he's just a kid, because back in Namek he took on Recoome knowing he would get his shit kicked in and here he's just a pussy even with all his power. Now that doesn't mean I don't like anything about this arc, I really enjoy his transformation to SSJ2, Goku vs Cell, Piccolo in general, and Trunks' back story.

[Zanza]

Does he need to see Cell do the things he did? He knows Cell murdered hundreds, if not thousands of innocents. What indication did Gohan have that Cell could be convinced of anything?

Would you feel more hate towards someone who murdered another person in front of you, or a serial killer you've never met?

Also, I don't buy the argument that because Gohan knew his father was on the way that justifies him throwing himself in harms way when he didn't know when his father would arrive. When the Ginyu Force arrived, he didn't hesitate, and they had yet to do anything to him or anyone. Yet, he didn't hesitate to fight. Goku was on the way but he didn't know when exactly he would arrive.

Goku is his moral support. He makes a whole speech about being Goku's son to use as motivation to fight Recoome, he needed his father's support to combat Cell's Kamhameha. He didn't hesitate to fight Cell, how many times does this have to be stated? He was still fighting him. He just didn't want to kill people unnecessarily, nothing tells us he would have killed the Ginyu Force members if he had the chance.

Except he did hesitate to fight Cell. Why else did he only dish out one attack against him pre SSJ2?

[Doctor.]

Except he did hesitate to fight Cell. Why else did he only dish out one attack against him pre SSJ2?

Because he's weaker? He blocked Cell's attacks and attacked him, he wasn't hesitating at all.

[shinmaru]

I think the Android and Cell arc are the highest points DragonBall has ever reached, at least for me. Android/Cell arc has one of the best character designs like Cell and the Androids. And I enjoyed the mystery story and the plot twist like when the villains/Androids suddenly turn victims them selfs. The Arc has good drama like Goku getting sick and Trunks future timeline. I enjoyed the Android and Cell arc and all the movies and specials from that timeframe.

But I think the experience is different for people that got into DBZ true Cartoon Network in 1998 or 2001.

[Cipher]

The android arc is a good time. I tend to like it less than other portions because it's the height of both Toriyama and Toei's self-serious take on the series, but there's still a playful quality to it. I agree with VegettoEX that it being less predictable than the Namek arc plays in its favor as well. One of the things I enjoy about most of Dragon Ball is that you'd have to be an idiot-savant to guess what the climax is going to look like at the beginning of the arc. Namek is maybe the one portion outside of the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai for which that's not true. I even really enjoy the android arc up until Cell absorbs #17.

Re: Gohan: He's never enjoyed being a fighter. He recoils in terror the first time he's called upon to attack an opponent. In the Cell Games in particular, his father is throwing him into organized combat and asking under no uncertain conditions that he kill his opponent. And, at the same time, that he consciously tries to give himself over to an anger that greatly affects his personality. That's all horrifying! It's completely believable to think that not only could he not tap into that on command, but that he'd try to reason with Cell first (and despite Cell being a monster, he's more willing to engage with the characters than someone like Freeza). I don't have any problem with that. Gohan's never liked hurting people, only saving them.

[Lord Beerus]

I don't think the Android arc marked the downfall of Dragon Ball. Hell, I think the Andoird arc was pretty weak until Cell arrived. But the very unpredictable and somewhat convoluted nature of the arc certainly makes it quite entertaining. What I did really hate about the Android arc was how stupid the cast were. It took a very long chain of very stupid decisions from the heroes and villains for the arc to last as long as it did.

[ShadowDude112]

Cell arc is pretty cool. I still think Imperfect Cell looks amazingly badass and the fact that Toriyama made such a cool, creepy, but all around good design shows how good his imagination is. Some of the art is really good too!

[ekrolo2]

I don't think the Android arc marked the downfall of Dragon Ball. Hell, I think the Andoird arc was pretty weak until Cell arrived. But the very unpredictable and somewhat convoluted nature of the arc certainly makes it make quite entertaining. What I did really hate about the Android arc was how stupid the cast were. It took a very long chain of very stupid decisions from the heroes and villains for the arc to last as long as it did.

Their stupidity is why I precisely can't like that arc as much as I used too: they're just too stupid for me to not want them to lose.

[Lord Beerus]

I don't think the Android arc marked the downfall of Dragon Ball. Hell, I think the Andoird arc was pretty weak until Cell arrived. But the very unpredictable and somewhat convoluted nature of the arc certainly makes it make quite entertaining. What I did really hate about the Android arc was how stupid the cast were. It took a very long chain of very stupid decisions from the heroes and villains for the arc to last as long as it did.

Their stupidity is why I precisely can't like that arc as much as I used too: they're just too stupid for me to not want them to lose.

In hindsight, the Cell arc would have never happened if they listened to Bulma and used the Dragon Balls to locate where Gero was, find him and kill him. But hey, we got Cell, SSJ2 Gohan and Goku vs. Cell for all the stupid decisions that were made, so that's not a bad trade off.

[Basaku]

Despite all the lack of planing and changes, it is still probably the best written storyline of the franchise with best character developement, tons of interesting ideas etc. Better than Freeza saga in many ways, maybe worse in some other. I see them rather equal for different reasons. It started going downhill in Buu saga

[Lord Beerus]

Despite all the lack of planing and changes, it is still probably the best written storyline of the franchise with best character developement, tons of interesting ideas etc. Better than Freeza saga in many ways, maybe worse in some other. I see them rather equal for different reasons. It started going downhill in Buu saga

I honestly think the Saiyan arc and Majin Boo arc had more character development than the Android arc did. The only character I remembered getting developed in the Android arc was #16, which was quite well done, I will admit to that.

[Mystic Tien]

I don't think the Android arc marked the downfall of Dragon Ball. Hell, I think the Andoird arc was pretty weak until Cell arrived. But the very unpredictable and somewhat convoluted nature of the arc certainly makes it make quite entertaining. What I did really hate about the Android arc was how stupid the cast were. It took a very long chain of very stupid decisions from the heroes and villains for the arc to last as long as it did.

Their stupidity is why I precisely can't like that arc as much as I used too: they're just too stupid for me to not want them to lose.

Well, their stupidity annoys me starting from Android arc. It is sad.

I don't think that this arc is a downfall. It is quite hard to say when it actually started. One may say that it started even as early as in original Dragon Ball. Not sure what I think about it.

[ekrolo2]

I don't think the Android arc marked the downfall of Dragon Ball. Hell, I think the Andoird arc was pretty weak until Cell arrived. But the very unpredictable and somewhat convoluted nature of the arc certainly makes it make quite entertaining. What I did really hate about the Android arc was how stupid the cast were. It took a very long chain of very stupid decisions from the heroes and villains for the arc to last as long as it did.

Their stupidity is why I precisely can't like that arc as much as I used too: they're just too stupid for me to not want them to lose.

Well, their stupidity annoys me starting from Android arc. It is sad.

I don't think that this arc is a downfall. It is quite hard to say when it actually started. One may say that it started even as early as in original Dragon Ball. Not sure what I think about it.

I see the Buu arc as the downfall. The Cell stuff was a big decline sure but fuck was 95% of the Buu Saga just monotonous and boring. New powers ups, techniques and transformations getting introduced up the ass then thrown under the bus almost as quickly as they show up, dragging it out until it finally ended.

[Mystic Tien]

I see the Buu arc as the downfall. The Cell stuff was a big decline sure but fuck was 95% of the Buu Saga just monotonous and boring. New powers ups, techniques and transformations getting introduced up the ass then thrown under the bus almost as quickly as they show up, dragging it out until it finally ended.

Buu arc was sure a major let down for me. The 1st part is great, simply awesome. But the 2nd part on the other hand... And it shows. With all of the new material. At this point story and everything else becomes only worse. Maybe it was because Toriyama didn't really want to work on Dragon Ball anymore, maybe he got out of ideas. I dunno.

[Basaku]

I honestly think the Saiyan arc and Majin Boo arc had more character development than the Android arc did. The only character I remembered getting developed in the Android arc was #16, which was quite well done, I will admit to that.

#16, Krillin & #18, Gohan, Vegeta with Bulma and Trunks/Future Trunks (subtle, but profound), heck even remnants of Goku developement. Many characters were nicely utilized, not just Saiyans, many surprising and fresh concepts. Buu wasn't "OMG TERRIBLE", it had its good stuff too. But Toriyama desperately insisted on reintroducing slapstick and didn't do anything with most characters. Vegeta & maybe Gohan are the only 2 from the old cast who grow, rest was Buu/Videl/Satan, new characters that by default are bound to develop in some way.

And then of course was the fact that the conflict with Buu just dragged. Way less engaging and unpredictable than the race for the Dragon Balls on Namek or the Android conflict that transforms into Cell arc and then a DBZ rendition of the tournaments.

[Lord Beerus]

I honestly think the Saiyan arc and Majin Boo arc had more character development than the Android arc did. The only character I remembered getting developed in the Android arc was #16, which was quite well done, I will admit to that.

#16, Krillin & #18, Gohan, Vegeta with Bulma and Trunks/Future Trunks (subtle, but profound), heck even remnants of Goku developement. Many characters were nicely utilized, not just Saiyans, many surprising and fresh concepts. Buu wasn't "OMG TERRIBLE", it had its good stuff too. But Toriyama desperately insisted on reintroducing slapstick and didn't do anything with most characters. Vegeta & maybe Gohan are the only 2 from the old cast who grow, rest was Buu/Videl/Satan, new characters that by default are bound to develop in some way.

And then of course was the fact that the conflict with Buu just dragged. Way less engaging and unpredictable than the race for the Dragon Balls on Namek or the Android conflict that transforms into Cell arc and then a DBZ rendition of the tournaments.

Krillin didn't get any development. He just wanted a chance to bone #18 so he kept her alive. #18 also never showed any signs of changing, even after she got brought back to life, she didn't even show any gratitude. She just gave Krillin a vague response and left. All of the development #18 ever got happened off-screen after the Android arc. And Vegeta, fuck me, he nearly let Bulma and his infant son die and he showed zero regret about it and flat admitted to it to Future Trunks' face. And even when Future Trunks got killed, he wanted get revenge out of pride. He didn't start give a shit about Bulma or Trunks until the Majin Boo arc. As for Goku, his character development stopped after the Freeza arc.