Could Gohan really carry the series.

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Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:20 pm

At the end of the Cell arc, its pretty clear that Toriyama intended for Gohan to take his father's place as main character. We all know how that turned out. Goku came back to life, beat Boo, and has now literally become a god while Gohan is reduced into an ever wimpier side character. People complain about Gohan not getting the focus he deserves, but is he really an interesting enough character to carry the series without Goku? Would the Boo arc and now Dragonball Super be better if Goku really stayed dead? Can someone who doesn't like fighting be the main Character of a fighting anime?!

Personally I don't think he has what it takes. It may sound harsh, but he's a nerd. His only serious fight was with Cell, and he went from being a wimp that needed someone to die so he could get it though his head that he needed to kill Cell, to being an arrogant jerk, then back to being a wimp that needed Goku to yell at him from the grave to even try and fight back once things went bad! He isn't as charismatic nor as intimidating as Goku and most importantly, doesn't have the same drive to fight and get stronger which is the whole point of the series!!!

Anyone think differently? anyone think Gohan can work in a lead role for extended amounts of time?

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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by Mystic Tien » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:35 pm

The guy doesn't have the gut to train and become a savior. He did it only once, and even then he was forced. He doesn't want to train and fight, this is simply it. He is no Goku and will never become like him. At this point even Vegeta fits being an savior much more than Gohan. So I don't think that Gohan could or can really care the series. Through all these years he still didn't get what is required to become a savior or a hero in general. He won't change, if he still didn't after all these years.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by Cipher » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:38 pm

I think he could, as I really enjoyed his spotlight during the early Boo arc, particularly what the anime did with it.

However, it would be a very different type of series were it to have continued following Gohan, for all the reasons you pointed out.

Re: above: Goku doesn't train to become a savior either, unless he's given immediate reason to do so. He trains because he's a battle maniac. Gohan's actually much more interested in helping people than Goku, hence his superhero getup. He just doesn't enjoy getting stronger for its own sake.
Last edited by Cipher on Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:39 pm

Gohan forcing himself to get stronger to protect the Earth and his family alone would make his position as the lead something unique for DBZ. Goku for all the good hes done has caused way to many screw ups due to his punching junkie nature. A lead with some sense of the bigger picture would be very refreshing since no one fucking has that amongst the main cast a lot of the time and I'm beyond sick of it after 20 fucking consecutive years.
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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:43 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Gohan forcing himself to get stronger to protect the Earth and his family alone would make his position as the lead something unique for DBZ. Goku for all the good hes done has caused way to many screw ups due to his punching junkie nature. A lead with some sense of the bigger picture would be very refreshing since no one fucking has that amongst the main cast a lot of the time and I'm beyond sick of it after 20 fucking consecutive years.
If Gohan is forcing himself then he's not having fun. And if the main character isn't enjoying what he does, how are we supposed to?

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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by Insertclevername » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:44 pm

Yes, since he was already going to but then he fell a victim of circumstance and was replaced. Gokuu died in the Cell arc so once his torch was passed, him getting it back makes for incredibly awkward writing. I think Gohan carried the series fine in the beginning of the Boo arc and while you mentioned that he isn't really cut out for the hero role, I will argue that that's his appeal. Plus, the end of the Boo arc could have marked development in his character that you could change him into a more ideal protagonist.

However, these thoughts only really apply to the Boo arc as now his shot as protagonist is squandered.
Mystic Tien wrote: He won't change, if he still didn't after all these years.
Sure, but he's an adult now, as opposed to being a kid. Is it really fair to judge someone as an adult on their mistakes as a kid?
RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:If Gohan is forcing himself then he's not having fun. And if the main character isn't enjoying what he does, how are we supposed to?
There's lots of series where the protagonist isn't having fun doing what he/she's doing and it's still fun. Their sense of fun and the reader's sense of fun isn't mutual.
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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:50 pm

Insertclevername wrote: There's lots of series where the protagonist isn't having fun doing what he/she's doing and it's still fun. Their sense of fun and the reader's sense of fun isn't mutual.
any examples? unless its a gag manga making fun of a miserable protag I can't think of a series where the main doesn't want to be doing what their doing.

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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by Mystic Tien » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:51 pm

Cipher wrote:I think he could, as I really enjoyed his spotlight during the early Boo arc, particularly what the anime did with it.

However, it would be a very different type of series were it to have continued following Gohan, for all the reasons you pointed out.

Re: above: Goku doesn't train to become a savior either, unless he's given immediate reason to do so. He trains because he's a battle maniac. Gohan's actually much more interested in helping people than Goku, hence his superhero getup. He just doesn't enjoy getting stronger for its own sake.
Goku trains for both. He both wants to be prepared for a new threat to be able to save the Earth, and be ready to have a nice challenge. Goku actually wants to be savior, while Gohan doesn't. Gohan cares about people, but he doesn't care enough to train, it seems.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:51 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Gohan forcing himself to get stronger to protect the Earth and his family alone would make his position as the lead something unique for DBZ. Goku for all the good hes done has caused way to many screw ups due to his punching junkie nature. A lead with some sense of the bigger picture would be very refreshing since no one fucking has that amongst the main cast a lot of the time and I'm beyond sick of it after 20 fucking consecutive years.
If Gohan is forcing himself then he's not having fun. And if the main character isn't enjoying what he does, how are we supposed to?
Firstly, not everyone would immediately tune out of the series just because Gohan is doing it out of obligation & duty rather then getting his training hard on eased up for the day. Plenty of heroes in fiction and even manga have done things not out of enjoyment but out of a sense of duty and its worked with a good writer onboard. Secondly, it makes his training a lot more important I feel. Like I said, Goku doesn't train to protect anyone, he does it to get off on fights and usually him saving the planet is a byproduct of this, not his main focus. Seeing a DBZ character where his focus is less on getting a cheap thrill out of battle but acttively protecting the planet both works and fits with the whole superhero angle the Saiyaman stuff is based on.
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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by Mystic Tien » Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:52 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Gohan forcing himself to get stronger to protect the Earth and his family alone would make his position as the lead something unique for DBZ. Goku for all the good hes done has caused way to many screw ups due to his punching junkie nature. A lead with some sense of the bigger picture would be very refreshing since no one fucking has that amongst the main cast a lot of the time and I'm beyond sick of it after 20 fucking consecutive years.
I wanted this, this didn't happen though, and most likely won't happen either with Gohan's type of personality.

I agree with you, but to be fair, current Vegeta (I mean Battle of Gods) is much better suited for being a main hero than Goku, or especially Gohan.
Insertclevername wrote: Sure, but he's an adult now, as opposed to being a kid. Is it really fair to judge someone as an adult on their mistakes as a kid?
Well, I judge him on the current mistakes as well. Beerus arrived, beat the heck out of him and all his friends. A year passed, Gohan not only didn't train, but thought that he lost the ability to turn SSJ, and didn't even bother to hold the hands with his friends for a couple of minutes to be able to achieve SSJ God... He is hopeless.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by voltlunok » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:07 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:
Insertclevername wrote: There's lots of series where the protagonist isn't having fun doing what he/she's doing and it's still fun. Their sense of fun and the reader's sense of fun isn't mutual.
any examples? unless its a gag manga making fun of a miserable protag I can't think of a series where the main doesn't want to be doing what their doing.
The current Archie Megaman comics are a fine example. In the megaman 1 arc, Megaman hates the fact he has to fight and 'kill' other robots and this doesn't really change over the course of the comic.

Another example would be a large chunk of UC era Gundam, Amuro didn't like being force to be the gundam pilot, Kamille hated being forced to fight, Judau didn't like being forced to fight.

Hell look at Tekkaman Blade, he fights knowing full well his powers may end up killing him, hell he risks this further by taking a power upgrade to become Blaster Tekkaman.

There are plenty of series where the hero is often forced to do things they don't want to do either by others or the urge to do what's right. I like the latter in that, yeah they don't wanna fight but it's needed to protect the world and that honestly is one of my favorite character archetypes, the kind soul forced to fight for his/her loved ones and the world, not because someone forced them to or anything but because it's the right thing to do.

I think if Gohan became the main character for DBZ then he'd fall into this archetype of character, the kind soul forced to shoulder the world at the sacrifice of himself.
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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by Mystic Tien » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:07 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:
Insertclevername wrote: There's lots of series where the protagonist isn't having fun doing what he/she's doing and it's still fun. Their sense of fun and the reader's sense of fun isn't mutual.
any examples? unless its a gag manga making fun of a miserable protag I can't think of a series where the main doesn't want to be doing what their doing.
Well, Bleach. Detective Conan. Though it isn't like he doesn't like to solve crimes, he doesn't like to solve them the way he does. Ruroini Kenshin, I guess, as Kenshin stopped wanting to kill people. And wanted to live peacefully, or something. Inuyasha, he really didn't want to hang out with all of these people, or collecting shards of Shinkoin Jewel, he just wanted to become a demon. Katekyo Hitman Reborn. Tsunayoshi Sawada doesn't care about all of this shit concerning mafia, he just wants to makes friends, and all. Sailor Moon (sorry, that it is not a shonen example) She just wants to be a simple schoolgirl, she doesn't want to be a superhero, she doesn't want to have all this responsibility, she just wants to lead a normal life. Eyeshield 21. He was basically forced in this, yet he started to like american football with time. Magic Knight Rayearth (sorry, another maho shoujo), they clearly didn't want to found themselves in a different world, with different kind of rules, where they could die every possible moment. Saint Seiya. All of them were forced to do this shit, and they hated it. Shiryu (in Saint Seiya: Next Dimension) even dropped this and settled down with his friend Shunrei. Hyoga was ready to give up twice, because he didn't like to do what he was forced to. Shun HATES fighting, and especially killing, yet he is forced to. Phoenix Ikki doesn't give a damn, and appears only in important moments, or if Shun is in danger. Seiya himself just wants to find his long lost sister, that's all. Yu-Gi-Oh (first series, first part of manga, or whatever else), kid really hates his life, and even more he hates what his dark part does, when he is not here, he is continually disgusted with it, yet he is forced to go with it, until much later. Fate Stay Night. The guy is forced to participate in the game he hates. He doesn't even want to get Holy Grail, let alone fight with anyone, or kill them. Konjiki no Gash Bell. Similarly to above-mentioned. Both don't want to fight, but both have to win - to make a world better place, they are even forced to defeat and separate people that they treasure with.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:08 pm

Mystic Tien wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Gohan forcing himself to get stronger to protect the Earth and his family alone would make his position as the lead something unique for DBZ. Goku for all the good hes done has caused way to many screw ups due to his punching junkie nature. A lead with some sense of the bigger picture would be very refreshing since no one fucking has that amongst the main cast a lot of the time and I'm beyond sick of it after 20 fucking consecutive years.
I wanted this, this didn't happen though, and most likely won't happen either with Gohan's type of personality.

I agree with you, but to be fair, current Vegeta (I mean Battle of Gods) is much better suited for being a main hero than Goku, or especially Gohan.
Insertclevername wrote: Sure, but he's an adult now, as opposed to being a kid. Is it really fair to judge someone as an adult on their mistakes as a kid?
Well, I judge him on the current mistakes as well. Beerus arrived, beat the heck out of him and all his friends. A year passed, Gohan not only didn't train, but thought that he lost the ability to turn SSJ, and didn't even bother to hold the hands with his friends for a couple of minutes to be able to achieve SSJ God... He is hopeless.
exactly, with SSJG being a free, easy, and quick power up, the fact that he didn't bother shows that he has no interest in being the hero of the story, or even a worthwhile sidekick to Goku.

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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by Insertclevername » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:11 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:
Insertclevername wrote: There's lots of series where the protagonist isn't having fun doing what he/she's doing and it's still fun. Their sense of fun and the reader's sense of fun isn't mutual.
any examples? unless its a gag manga making fun of a miserable protag I can't think of a series where the main doesn't want to be doing what their doing.
They don't necessarily have to be miserable, just not a happy go lucky as Gokuu is during training or battle. Doing what you have to do inspire of not enjoying shows discipline, which is an admirable and cool trait with a protagonist of an action series.
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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:15 pm

True, basically everyone in Saint Seiya is forced to fight, but that's kind of the point. They are honor and duty bound Knights who pledge there lives for some goddess chick. And if you notice, the tone of Saint Seiya is way more depressing and serious than Dragonball. I don't think the archetype of tortured and tragic hero fits in a series like Dragonball.

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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:18 pm

Honestly, no. Given Gohan's personality, he really couldn't be the main character and carry the franchise because he ultimately don't have the immense drive or gets great happiness in getting stronger like Goku does. Gohan may likes training, but only if Toriyama reminds him to do it.
Last edited by Lord Beerus on Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by Mystic Tien » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:19 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:
Mystic Tenshinhan wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Gohan forcing himself to get stronger to protect the Earth and his family alone would make his position as the lead something unique for DBZ. Goku for all the good hes done has caused way to many screw ups due to his punching junkie nature. A lead with some sense of the bigger picture would be very refreshing since no one fucking has that amongst the main cast a lot of the time and I'm beyond sick of it after 20 fucking consecutive years.
I wanted this, this didn't happen though, and most likely won't happen either with Gohan's type of personality.

I agree with you, but to be fair, current Vegeta (I mean Battle of Gods) is much better suited for being a main hero than Goku, or especially Gohan.
Insertclevername wrote: Sure, but he's an adult now, as opposed to being a kid. Is it really fair to judge someone as an adult on their mistakes as a kid?
Well, I judge him on the current mistakes as well. Beerus arrived, beat the heck out of him and all his friends. A year passed, Gohan not only didn't train, but thought that he lost the ability to turn SSJ, and didn't even bother to hold the hands with his friends for a couple of minutes to be able to achieve SSJ God... He is hopeless.
exactly, with SSJG being a free, easy, and quick power up, the fact that he didn't bother shows that he has no interest in being the hero of the story, or even a worthwhile sidekick to Goku.
Yeah, it is obvious after RoF, that Gohan won't change. Under any circumstances. Even with him having a wife and daughter, who need to be protected. He is just that bad... I guess.
RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:True, basically everyone in Saint Seiya is forced to fight, but that's kind of the point. They are honor and duty bound Knights who pledge there lives for some goddess chick. And if you notice, the tone of Saint Seiya is way more depressing and serious than Dragonball. I don't think the archetype of tortured and tragic hero fits in a series like Dragonball.
Well, what I meant was that Saint Seiya is also shounen. It is for the same demographics, and it was even printed in the same time as Dragon Ball. Other anime series which I mentioned (or most of them, because of Inuyasha and Fate Stay Night) are much more light hearted than Saint Seiya. Saint Seiya is one of the most dramatic shounen series I've ever watched.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
He almost got Videl killed in Battle of Gods tho.

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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:24 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:True, basically everyone in Saint Seiya is forced to fight, but that's kind of the point. They are honor and duty bound Knights who pledge there lives for some goddess chick. And if you notice, the tone of Saint Seiya is way more depressing and serious than Dragonball. I don't think the archetype of tortured and tragic hero fits in a series like Dragonball.
Gohan doesnt have to brood on top of a gargoyle in a rainstorm just because his reasoning for fighting and training goes deeper than his own personnel thrill seeking. Sure his desire to protect others might make him more cliche than Goku in comparison but for a DB character it would be practically unheard of.
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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by fadeddreams5 » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:30 pm

He definitely could. However, his personality would draw many parallels to modern day shonen protagonists (self-righteous, heroic types), which isn't necessarily a bad thing, given that there weren't THAT many of those at the time the Cell saga ended (I'm probably horrifically wrong...). He could have easily kept his goofy, awkward personality from his teen self, only change into a strong and serious no-nonsense persona the minute things got dire, exactly how Future Trunks was against Mecha Frieza. Who wouldn't want that? IMHO, this Gohan brings much more to the table than modern Goku. Also, there should have been a transitional arc between the Cell saga and Buu one (a year after Goku's death), starring Kid Gohan. But that's just me.

And mind you, just because I would have preferred this does NOT mean I want Goku written off. I feel there's this misconception that people who want Goku dead want him to be brushed aside and never heard of again. I WANT Goku to be a prominent character. It simply wouldn't be Dragon Ball if he wasn't. But I love the notion of him having adventures in the after life, while Gohan is in charge in the living world. Think Fusion Reborn, or the Other World saga.
Personally I don't think he has what it takes. It may sound harsh, but he's a nerd. His only serious fight was with Cell, and he went from being a wimp that needed someone to die so he could get it though his head that he needed to kill Cell, to being an arrogant jerk, then back to being a wimp that needed Goku to yell at him from the grave to even try and fight back once things went bad! He isn't as charismatic nor as intimidating as Goku and most importantly, doesn't have the same drive to fight and get stronger which is the whole point of the series!!!
Well, then, don't make him a dedicated nerd. Problem solved. They could have developed his character a different way after the Cell saga. Same personality, only, again, a no non-sense attitude and desire to train to protect his friends and family, rather than for the love of it.
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Re: Could Gohan really carry the series.

Post by sbk » Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:39 pm

I don't know about the whole series but he could've easily carried the Buu arc

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