This is my Mystic Gohan Theory.
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This is my Mystic Gohan Theory.
KUDOS TO MYSELF! I HAVE MADE MY FIRST THREAD!
Okay, this is my thoughts. When you train, only the level that you train in gets leveled up:
Lets say that 1 year training puts you power up90,000 point.
Before Training:
Normal-70, 000
Super Saiyan-130,000
Super Saiyan 2- 200,000
Super Saiyan 3-300,000
These are not real power lvls!
now lets say you train the entire time in Normal- You go from 70, 000 to 160, 000. See? Your normal stage is now more powerful than your SSJ . Therefore, you no longer need it.(Unless it is only for you to show off with.)
That is why Gohan never had to transform. He powered up his normal stage instead of his Super Saiyan stages, and his normal got stronger than them.(I am sure his power up was a lot bigger than the one I am showing here!)
Okay, this is my thoughts. When you train, only the level that you train in gets leveled up:
Lets say that 1 year training puts you power up90,000 point.
Before Training:
Normal-70, 000
Super Saiyan-130,000
Super Saiyan 2- 200,000
Super Saiyan 3-300,000
These are not real power lvls!
now lets say you train the entire time in Normal- You go from 70, 000 to 160, 000. See? Your normal stage is now more powerful than your SSJ . Therefore, you no longer need it.(Unless it is only for you to show off with.)
That is why Gohan never had to transform. He powered up his normal stage instead of his Super Saiyan stages, and his normal got stronger than them.(I am sure his power up was a lot bigger than the one I am showing here!)
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I'm a tad confused at what your getting at here...
If this was the case than wouldn't the other Saiya-Jins have similar abilities? Maybe not. But I don't think I'm getting the drift of this thread.
If this was the case than wouldn't the other Saiya-Jins have similar abilities? Maybe not. But I don't think I'm getting the drift of this thread.
Just remember, everytime something bad is happening to you. Something even worse is happening to someone else.
Big Momma, you've got part of the concept down right, but not quite all of it.
What Old Kaio's ritual did was take all the power Gohan had in SSj1 and SSj2, and focused them within his normal stage. So it's not that he didn't need to transform, it's that he couldn't transform anymore. He now had power to rival or surpass Goku's at SSj3, without any transformations.
Congrats on the first thread thing, tho'.
What Old Kaio's ritual did was take all the power Gohan had in SSj1 and SSj2, and focused them within his normal stage. So it's not that he didn't need to transform, it's that he couldn't transform anymore. He now had power to rival or surpass Goku's at SSj3, without any transformations.
Congrats on the first thread thing, tho'.
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That's not it at all. It takes all the latent strength/potential within a person, ALL OF IT, releases it to its max, and adds even more. In other words, he's stronger than he'll ever be able to become. I'm sure if he got angry enough he COULD transform, but other than make his hair blond, his eyes green and stress him out, the SSJ stages would do absolutely nothing.SSj Kaboom wrote:Big Momma, you've got part of the concept down right, but not quite all of it.
What Old Kaio's ritual did was take all the power Gohan had in SSj1 and SSj2, and focused them within his normal stage. So it's not that he didn't need to transform, it's that he couldn't transform anymore. He now had power to rival or surpass Goku's at SSj3, without any transformations.
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Dayspring wrote: That's not it at all. It takes all the latent strength/potential within a person, ALL OF IT, releases it to its max, and adds even more. In other words, he's stronger than he'll ever be able to become. I'm sure if he got angry enough he COULD transform, but other than make his hair blond, his eyes green and stress him out, the SSJ stages would do absolutely nothing.
-_0;
I ain't arguing...
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Which is exactly why he was sealed in the Z Sword. Friggin' Godmodder.Pedro The Hutt wrote:Pft, who needs years of dedication and training, just let ol' Kaio power you up to your utmost potential within a second! Brilliance!... he should make a business out of that.
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Thanks guys for clearing that up, I just thought that what I said was the case. I'd love to see it happen to Pan. Imagine...
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transformations really dont matter later on in the series....Heck if Gohan could power up to SSJ5.876 in Gt he would still be useless.
sry.... I just rewatched the Super 17 fight if you could call it that and I'm still really bitter about what they did to Gohan, Goten, UBuu and Vegeta.
sry.... I just rewatched the Super 17 fight if you could call it that and I'm still really bitter about what they did to Gohan, Goten, UBuu and Vegeta.
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Yeah, I hate how they are dealt with there.(Sorry about vague details, I didn't just get done watching it.)
Anyway, here is another one of my goofy theories(I know it is incorrect!)
Remember USSJ1 and 2? Well those are forms inbetween SSJ1 and 2, right? Well Mystic is kinda like that. There is a thick line between SSJ levels, and they only work if you get right in the middle:
SSJ--------------------*middle*--------------------SSJ2
USSJ USSJ2
See? They failed(being slow and all.)because you have to get it just right.
This is where mystic is:
SSJ3--------------------*middle*--------------------SSJ4
Mystic
Mystic hits right in the middle, so it turns out very strong. You can tell Mystic is inbetween SSJ3 and 4 because he keeps the same hair color(SSJ4)and he keeps the same strength(SSJ3).
I know you guys think I am crazy with my wacky theories, buy I know they are false and obsolete, I just figured I'd share them with you for a good laugh . If you have any crazy theories, post them, so we can laugh together!(and I don't sound like an idiot!)
Anyway, here is another one of my goofy theories(I know it is incorrect!)
Remember USSJ1 and 2? Well those are forms inbetween SSJ1 and 2, right? Well Mystic is kinda like that. There is a thick line between SSJ levels, and they only work if you get right in the middle:
SSJ--------------------*middle*--------------------SSJ2
USSJ USSJ2
See? They failed(being slow and all.)because you have to get it just right.
This is where mystic is:
SSJ3--------------------*middle*--------------------SSJ4
Mystic
Mystic hits right in the middle, so it turns out very strong. You can tell Mystic is inbetween SSJ3 and 4 because he keeps the same hair color(SSJ4)and he keeps the same strength(SSJ3).
I know you guys think I am crazy with my wacky theories, buy I know they are false and obsolete, I just figured I'd share them with you for a good laugh . If you have any crazy theories, post them, so we can laugh together!(and I don't sound like an idiot!)
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I disagree.
The mystic power is not a transformation of the Super Saiyan, a transformation beyond the Super Saiyan, or anywere in between. It is not a "transformation" in those terms. It was an unlocking Gohan's potential and it gave him a type of energy. He was not used to the energy at first and was not able to incorporate it into his Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 forms.
By DragonballGT, he had trained with the power unlocked and was able to transform into a Super Saiyan with the mystic energy inside his body, and that made his SS and SS2 more effective.
That is why he never became a Super Saiyan 3, he trained with the old Kai to unlock the mystic energy instead.
The mystic power is not a transformation of the Super Saiyan, a transformation beyond the Super Saiyan, or anywere in between. It is not a "transformation" in those terms. It was an unlocking Gohan's potential and it gave him a type of energy. He was not used to the energy at first and was not able to incorporate it into his Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 forms.
By DragonballGT, he had trained with the power unlocked and was able to transform into a Super Saiyan with the mystic energy inside his body, and that made his SS and SS2 more effective.
That is why he never became a Super Saiyan 3, he trained with the old Kai to unlock the mystic energy instead.
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Yeah, congrats for making your first topic. And I hope you accept my first post AND first reply in this forum. (Ironically, they use the same format as the forum I moderate.) But anyway, while I appreciate the fact you have put out a well though theory, I also have to make a disagreement on this.
Two factor's actually. One being the handling of the Super Saiyan forms, as well as the Mystic form. So starting with the Super Saiyan forms, I will be basing them on what Toei approved for the Dragon Ball Z RPG (the Frieza Saga book) and what Wikipedia says. And I will skip the non-canon stuff.
Saiyan Rage: This is not a form, but it is needed to achieve the Super Saiyan forms. It gives the Saiyan a x2 modifier, and needs to be both achieved and maintained.
Super Saiyan: This form, as detailed in the Frieza Saga book, this form give a power enhancement of x2.5, and this form needs to be in check. This means when a Saiyan hits that 5 million mark, and has the requirements, their power level will enhance to 12.5 million.
[Please note that all modifiers beyond this point will be based on the descriptions of each form. Also, it will be simplified by using the power level 5 million aspect.]
Super Saiyan 2nd Grade/Ascended Super Saiyan: This form allows the Saiyan to have more control by adding more power. The main aspect of this is the fact is the additional bulk the form develops, namely to compensate for the extra power they are able to control. There is a possability that this form boosts an additional x1.5 (atop of the previous x2.5).
Super Saiyan 3rd Grade/Ultra Super Saiyan: This form is the final stage, per say. Again, allowing the Saiyan to control more power by adding more bulk. But the bulk causes the Saiyan to slow down. Beyond that, it is no different than the previous form. There is a possability that this form boosts an additional x1.5 (atop of the previous x1.5).
Super Saiyan, Full-Power: This is the true version of a controlled Super Saiyan form. While they do not get more power that the previous two forms, this form is needed to achieve Super Saiyan 2.
Super Saiyan 2: Atop of the additional x2.5 (atop of the first x2.5), the possability of Saiyan Rage may be what needs to be controlled. This was first shown when Gohan had an attitude change against Cell. [Note: The Saiyan Rage could have been a minor set-back with Gohan, based on his nature at that time.]
Super Saiyan 3: Atop of the additional x2.5 (atop of the second x2.5), this was said to be a Super Saiyan form that taps into that hidden power reserve that all Saiyans have. Plus, it is believed that it can be achieved in a world like the "Chamber of Spirit and Time" (and the Afterlife). But due to extreme power boots, it is believed that this power not only restricts how much power a Saiyan can power up, but it also uses up power to reduce all strain that the Saiyan's body takes. [Note: This will also explain why Gotenks only achieves the form in 15 minutes, opposed to 30.]
Now there is the "Mystic" form (aka the "Ultimate" form). And please note that I am basing this on what Wikipedia says.
The form is the Saiyan's full potential that is pushed to it's maximum. This causes all Super Saiyan forms to become obsolete. This means that it could be the power that seperates Super Saiyan 2 from Super Saiyan 3. This could mean... Super Saiyan + Super Saiyan 2 + Saiyan Rage. Plus, this would explain why this form is easilly controlled and Gohan shows a lesser version of the "Saiyan Agression" that was shown when he achieved Super Saiyan 2.
In this case, it may go like this. And I hope this helps...
Saiyan: 5,000,000
Saiyan, with Saiyan Rage: 10,000,000
Saiyan: 5,000,000
Super Saiyan (x2.5): 12,500,000
Ascended Super Saiyan (x1.5): 18,750,000
Ultra Super Saiyan (x1.5): 28,125,000
Saiyan: 5,000,000
Super Saiyan, Full-Power (x2.5): 12,500,000
Super Saiyan 2 (x2.5): 31,250,000
Super Saiyan 3 (x2.5): 78,125,000
Saiyan: 5,000,000
Super Saiyan, Full-Power (x2.5): 12,500,000
Super Saiyan 2 (x2.5): 31,250,000
Mystic/Ultimate (x2): 62,500,000
[Note: If this is true, the form would not rival Super Saiyan 3 in power. But since it's a truely controlled form, it rivals that form due to the fact it has no duration.]
Also, rumor has it that Gohan had lost this power when he was absorbed by Super Buu. This may explain the changes that Toei had made when they had him go Super Saiyan in DBGT.
And as I said, I will not beyond the canon stuff. But if you do need a chart, Wikipedia has supplied one.
Giji Super Saiyan (Non-Canon) ->
Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2nd Grade/Ascended Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 3rd Grade/Ultra Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan, Full-Power ->
-> Legendary Super Saiyan (Non-Canon)
-> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3
-> Super Oozaru -> Super Saiyan 4 (Non-Canon)
So basically, I hope that helps you with your theory. I am not saying you are wrong, just that I am disagreeing with you. So i hope that by mean saying this, in the manner I said it, will cause problems.
And Hero 004, he never trained to achieve this form (Supreme Kai was training him to become more powerful). Elder Kai just did what Guru did in the Namek Saga... but at a greater degree. Namely, all he did was unlock the "level restrictions" that the forms had, as well as his "hidden power" (or Saiyan Rage). That part makes me wonder if Akira Toriyama wanted it to be Saiyan Rage, or Akira Toriyama forgot about the Namek part of his manga (he was corrected by a fan during the first or second "chapter" of his manga series. Also, there is a chance he was able to go Super Saiyan again, because of the fact he lost this power.
Two factor's actually. One being the handling of the Super Saiyan forms, as well as the Mystic form. So starting with the Super Saiyan forms, I will be basing them on what Toei approved for the Dragon Ball Z RPG (the Frieza Saga book) and what Wikipedia says. And I will skip the non-canon stuff.
Saiyan Rage: This is not a form, but it is needed to achieve the Super Saiyan forms. It gives the Saiyan a x2 modifier, and needs to be both achieved and maintained.
Super Saiyan: This form, as detailed in the Frieza Saga book, this form give a power enhancement of x2.5, and this form needs to be in check. This means when a Saiyan hits that 5 million mark, and has the requirements, their power level will enhance to 12.5 million.
[Please note that all modifiers beyond this point will be based on the descriptions of each form. Also, it will be simplified by using the power level 5 million aspect.]
Super Saiyan 2nd Grade/Ascended Super Saiyan: This form allows the Saiyan to have more control by adding more power. The main aspect of this is the fact is the additional bulk the form develops, namely to compensate for the extra power they are able to control. There is a possability that this form boosts an additional x1.5 (atop of the previous x2.5).
Super Saiyan 3rd Grade/Ultra Super Saiyan: This form is the final stage, per say. Again, allowing the Saiyan to control more power by adding more bulk. But the bulk causes the Saiyan to slow down. Beyond that, it is no different than the previous form. There is a possability that this form boosts an additional x1.5 (atop of the previous x1.5).
Super Saiyan, Full-Power: This is the true version of a controlled Super Saiyan form. While they do not get more power that the previous two forms, this form is needed to achieve Super Saiyan 2.
Super Saiyan 2: Atop of the additional x2.5 (atop of the first x2.5), the possability of Saiyan Rage may be what needs to be controlled. This was first shown when Gohan had an attitude change against Cell. [Note: The Saiyan Rage could have been a minor set-back with Gohan, based on his nature at that time.]
Super Saiyan 3: Atop of the additional x2.5 (atop of the second x2.5), this was said to be a Super Saiyan form that taps into that hidden power reserve that all Saiyans have. Plus, it is believed that it can be achieved in a world like the "Chamber of Spirit and Time" (and the Afterlife). But due to extreme power boots, it is believed that this power not only restricts how much power a Saiyan can power up, but it also uses up power to reduce all strain that the Saiyan's body takes. [Note: This will also explain why Gotenks only achieves the form in 15 minutes, opposed to 30.]
Now there is the "Mystic" form (aka the "Ultimate" form). And please note that I am basing this on what Wikipedia says.
The form is the Saiyan's full potential that is pushed to it's maximum. This causes all Super Saiyan forms to become obsolete. This means that it could be the power that seperates Super Saiyan 2 from Super Saiyan 3. This could mean... Super Saiyan + Super Saiyan 2 + Saiyan Rage. Plus, this would explain why this form is easilly controlled and Gohan shows a lesser version of the "Saiyan Agression" that was shown when he achieved Super Saiyan 2.
In this case, it may go like this. And I hope this helps...
Saiyan: 5,000,000
Saiyan, with Saiyan Rage: 10,000,000
Saiyan: 5,000,000
Super Saiyan (x2.5): 12,500,000
Ascended Super Saiyan (x1.5): 18,750,000
Ultra Super Saiyan (x1.5): 28,125,000
Saiyan: 5,000,000
Super Saiyan, Full-Power (x2.5): 12,500,000
Super Saiyan 2 (x2.5): 31,250,000
Super Saiyan 3 (x2.5): 78,125,000
Saiyan: 5,000,000
Super Saiyan, Full-Power (x2.5): 12,500,000
Super Saiyan 2 (x2.5): 31,250,000
Mystic/Ultimate (x2): 62,500,000
[Note: If this is true, the form would not rival Super Saiyan 3 in power. But since it's a truely controlled form, it rivals that form due to the fact it has no duration.]
Also, rumor has it that Gohan had lost this power when he was absorbed by Super Buu. This may explain the changes that Toei had made when they had him go Super Saiyan in DBGT.
And as I said, I will not beyond the canon stuff. But if you do need a chart, Wikipedia has supplied one.
Giji Super Saiyan (Non-Canon) ->
Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2nd Grade/Ascended Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 3rd Grade/Ultra Super Saiyan
Super Saiyan, Full-Power ->
-> Legendary Super Saiyan (Non-Canon)
-> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3
-> Super Oozaru -> Super Saiyan 4 (Non-Canon)
So basically, I hope that helps you with your theory. I am not saying you are wrong, just that I am disagreeing with you. So i hope that by mean saying this, in the manner I said it, will cause problems.
And Hero 004, he never trained to achieve this form (Supreme Kai was training him to become more powerful). Elder Kai just did what Guru did in the Namek Saga... but at a greater degree. Namely, all he did was unlock the "level restrictions" that the forms had, as well as his "hidden power" (or Saiyan Rage). That part makes me wonder if Akira Toriyama wanted it to be Saiyan Rage, or Akira Toriyama forgot about the Namek part of his manga (he was corrected by a fan during the first or second "chapter" of his manga series. Also, there is a chance he was able to go Super Saiyan again, because of the fact he lost this power.
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It is my personal outlook that GT is non-canon (just like the Garlic Jr. Saga and the movies). Because of this, Gohan's transforming in Dragonball GT makes no sense whatsoever.
However, in order to make sense of it all, I would say that in order to keep the Ultimate upgrade one would probably have to keep training. Gohan didn't keep training and his power slipped down just like between the Cell Game and the Buu Saga. So, in order to have a fighting chance he had to transform.
However, in order to make sense of it all, I would say that in order to keep the Ultimate upgrade one would probably have to keep training. Gohan didn't keep training and his power slipped down just like between the Cell Game and the Buu Saga. So, in order to have a fighting chance he had to transform.
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I agree. It's why I try avoiding adding non-canon-based facts with canon-based facts. They tend to contradict each other, and can even cause problems. Besides, I consder DBGT to be tied with the movie-based time line... as a lot of factors are better fixed with that.Kendamu wrote:It is my personal outlook that GT is non-canon (just like the Garlic Jr. Saga and the movies). Because of this, Gohan's transforming in Dragonball GT makes no sense whatsoever.
I was thinking that as well, when I typed that. But then I looked at Vegito/Vegetto. His power was undone the moment he was absorbed by Super Buu. And since that "Fusion Power" was at par with Gohan's "Mystic Upgrade," I assumed that it's power suffered the same fate.Kendamu wrote:However, in order to make sense of it all, I would say that in order to keep the Ultimate upgrade one would probably have to keep training. Gohan didn't keep training and his power slipped down just like between the Cell Game and the Buu Saga. So, in order to have a fighting chance he had to transform.
But yeah, that is also something even I should not rule out.
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I've always gone with the fact that Gohan lost his Mystic abilities between the Buu Saga and Dragonball GT (which I consider canon) because of his lack of training.
And yeah, Mystic isn't a Saiyajin form necessarily, it's just a power-up that releases hidden powers, like Guru's unlcoking of Krillin and Gohan's potential on Nameksei.
And yeah, Mystic isn't a Saiyajin form necessarily, it's just a power-up that releases hidden powers, like Guru's unlcoking of Krillin and Gohan's potential on Nameksei.
I really, really need to get back into the habit of posting.
Actually, the two effects were different. The Great Elder awoke power that Gohan and Kuririn already had within them and made it accessable, yes...but Rou Kaioshin did that and then unnaturally enhanced Gohan's powers beyond even that.And yeah, Mystic isn't a Saiyajin form necessarily, it's just a power-up that releases hidden powers, like Guru's unlcoking of Krillin and Gohan's potential on Nameksei.
I didn't say that he trained to unlock the power. I said that he trained afterward to get used to it and incorporate the energy into his Super Saiyan levals.Ninja Poe Bear wrote:And Hero 004, he never trained to achieve this form (Supreme Kai was training him to become more powerful). Elder Kai just did what Guru did in the Namek Saga... but at a greater degree. Namely, all he did was unlock the "level restrictions" that the forms had, as well as his "hidden power" (or Saiyan Rage). That part makes me wonder if Akira Toriyama wanted it to be Saiyan Rage, or Akira Toriyama forgot about the Namek part of his manga (he was corrected by a fan during the first or second "chapter" of his manga series. Also, there is a chance he was able to go Super Saiyan again, because of the fact he lost this power.
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