What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Ree » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:26 am

I still say Chris is more 1 dimensional he doesn't voice him as really anything other than some big burly blowhard
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:21 am

Vegeta is a blowhard, but how does Chris make him sound burly?

And how is Drummond any more dimensional?
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Ree » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:29 am

In Kai when he abandons Goku to fight Ginyu by himself he says "have fun Kakarot" and he could not sound more like a burly wrestler if he tried

He actually FITS the character, he can actually act and stay in character, and his take has more personality but with Chris Vegeta its nothing more than what I said before. I get more out of Brian Vegeta
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:39 am

Ree wrote:In Kai when he abandons Goku to fight Ginyu by himself he says "have fun Kakarot" and he could not sound more like a burly wrestler if he tried

He actually FITS the character, he can actually act and stay in character, and his take has more personality but with Chris Vegeta its nothing more than what I said before. I get more out of Brian Vegeta
And what do burly wrestlers sound like? And how does that one perfectly fine line delivery not work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb88Er9gG1o

Sabat doesn't have a problem staying in character, and Drummond's take just screams "EVIL" when Vegeta has more layers than that. What is Vegeta's character?
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Ree » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:47 am

The way he put emphasis on certain syllables made him sound OOC to say the least. I meant stereotype mockery of burly wrestlers.

Sounding like anything i described him as is NOT staying in character
And Chris take just screams "Look how tough I am!"
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:53 am

Ree wrote:The way he put emphasis on certain syllables made him sound OOC to say the least. I meant stereotype mockery of burly wrestlers.<br abp="686"><br abp="687">Sounding like anything i described him as is NOT staying in character<br abp="688">And Chris take just screams "Look how tough I am!"
This isn't even nitpicking, you are desperately looking for reasons to not like him to the point where you will make stuff up. His yell simply sounds like a guy mocking someone he hates.

Be specific, what is Vegeta's character?
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Ree » Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:58 am

Because you totally didn't make up reasons to why Brian's Vegeta isn't the best!
For example, everything you said to sayo-chan gohann and NitroEX
You even nitpick "You won't escape... MY WRATH!"

You can look it up on the DB Wiki for his character page
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:04 am

Ree wrote:Because you totally didn't make up reasons to why Brian's Vegeta isn't the best!
For example, everything you said to sayo-chan gohann and NitroEX
You even nitpick "You won't escape... MY WRATH!"

You can look it up on the DB Wiki for his character page
That's not a made up reason, it's a voice that says "I'm evil!" with flashing neon lights, standing on stilts. I like Bryan, but not later on when Vegeta begins showing layers. I never said he was bad, just that I don't think it's better than Sabat's especially as the series progresses. I didn't nitpick either, I pointed out that it's melodramatic performance which even NitroEX agrees. He simply says that it fits the moment. You completely missed the point of that discussion. It was about the direction and whether Kai's was better than Ocean's.

I'm not interested in what the wiki says, I know Vegeta, I'm interested in your interpretation. It's important to the discussion.
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by NitroEX » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:14 am

ABED wrote:Theater has to be showy to reach everyone in the audience. It's practical more than anything else.
So you're saying that style of acting has no place in Dragonball or any other form of media? Come on..
ABED wrote:I'm by no means asking for subtlety, just the right amount of anger and a delivery that comes across as fake. Where did I ever say I want something subtle?
You implied it by saying Drummond's delivery is too showy and that the scream oversold the moment. The opposite of a grand or theatrical performance is something more subtle and natural or realistic. It's clear that you don't prefer Drummond's delivery in that scene and instead want a "less is more" approach, that's what I meant by more subtle.
ABED wrote:Who cares if Sabat did in on the first try? What matters is he got it. And you seem to put the blame on the remastered version on Sabat, but Drummond you give what little fault it has on the writing.
What? I merely acknowledged that the Ocean version wasn't entirely perfect and that it had it's own flaws, namely the writing. The actual acting and delivery of the line itself are (IMO) spot on and work in spite of the way the line was written. I separated the two elements (acting and writing) to prove that despite a questionably written line Drummond still shines, it's not to give him a handicap in any way.

While we're on the subject of favouritism though I can't help but notice the double standard here. You call me out for acknowledging that Drummond was given a poorly written line (which he still succeeded in spite of) and yet I'm not allowed to criticize Sabat's remastered performance or mention the fact that it took him multiple tries to even come close to Drummond's take?

The remastered Z dub isn't going anywhere and thanks to the dvd and Blu ray releases it will remain the default dub of the show. It's perfectly valid for me to criticise it just as much as Kai regardless of how green Sabat might have been at the time, that fact is largely irrelevant when judging performances.
ABED wrote:Again, that wasn't what I was arguing, I merely said that I think Sabat's acting in Kai is great and my preferred take on the scene, though I wouldn't trade that for Drummond's take. I'm glad Drummond's exists, but it's not my preference for what the scene should be.
Fair enough but your reasons for disliking the performance in the first place were questionable from my perspective and I think I've already explained why. I don't think Drummond's delivery is objectively wrong, it's just a different acting style which I happen to prefer for this particular anime.
ABED wrote:The scene should be about eliciting an emotion of concern of the well being of the heroes, not "this is so cool, that scream is amazing!"
I personally think it does both. I certainly had that type of reaction when seeing it the first time and like I've mentioned before, this anime oftentimes is melodramatic and over the top. In my mind it's acceptable to have over the top performances in Z. At least when the scene calls for it.

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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Sayo-chan » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:19 am

NitroEX wrote:
Sayo-chan wrote:Horikawa overall does a good job, but he's not at all perfect. He sounds bored half the time in Kai, kind of how Drummond often sounds bored or lackluster in the Boo saga and GT.
Brian Drummond didn't dub Vegeta in GT, that was Roger Rhodes from the Blue Water cast. Also I personally don't think he sounded bored in the Boo saga. He often acted with more passion and energy than Sabat, even when compared to the remastered Z dub.
So he didn't. They sounded similar, I guess. I haven't really watched GT in anything but Japanese. There were times where his performance in the Boo saga just wasn't up to the bar he set, but scenes like this show the edge he had over Sabat.
NitroEX wrote:I personally think it does both. I certainly had that type of reaction when seeing it the first time and like I've mentioned before, this anime oftentimes is melodramatic and over the top. In my mind it's acceptable to have over the top performances in Z. At least when the scene calls for it.
Not to mention that the art and animation in that sequence is over the top. It does fit.
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:28 am

DB definitely has it's fair share of over the top moments, but I don't think this one qualifies. Given how strongly Vegeta desires the DB's, it's justified that he be pissed off. However, moments like Goku getting scared when he sees needles requires an over the top performance.
You implied it by saying Drummond's delivery is too showy and that the scream oversold the moment.
No, you inferred that, and falsely I might add. Sabat's scream isn't subtle. Shouting isn't a subtle act, I merely believe that it should be about conveying an emotion instead of showing off the performance. It isn't even the scream, it was the way his voice rises as he says "you won't escape" as he builds to the crescendo, then pauses for dramatic effect before yelling "MY WRATH". Vegeta's not a theatrical character, whereas I think someone like Freeza is. Have you guys never heard someone completely blow their top in real life?
The actual acting and delivery of the line itself are (IMO) spot on and work in spite of the way the line was written
Sure, given the way it was written, then it's appropriate, but the moment isn't written well, leading to an over the top performance.
Drummond still shines
Never at issue.
I'm not allowed to criticize Sabat's remastered performance or mention the fact that it took him multiple tries to even come close to Drummond's take?
I didn't say you couldn't criticize Sabat. The whole issue started with you saying the Ocean dub was better directed than Kai, or at least in certain moments. Therefore I don't think Sabat's performance in another dub is relevant. I agree that his performance in the redub was weak and too subdued for that moment.
I personally think it does both.
It's too showy for Vegeta in that moment.
Not to mention that the art and animation in that sequence is over the top. It does fit.
Most animation is exaggerated because it's diificult to convey subtle emotions, but I don't think the moment calls for Vegeta to be theatrical in his reaction. He's pissed, he's not showing off.
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Sayo-chan » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:17 am

ABED wrote:Most animation is exaggerated because it's diificult to convey subtle emotions, but I don't think the moment calls for Vegeta to be theatrical in his reaction. He's pissed, he's not showing off.
You can't prove that. Regardless, there's plenty examples of Vegeta being angry/pissed off but the animation and art not being this over the top. It fits for what it is.
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Ree » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:23 pm

you mean like Chris voice which says "Look how tough I am!"?
Okay but I dont think its melodramatic and melodramatic is better than subdued when talking about Vegeta
I get the point but theres nothing I can add

Why does it make a difference what I say about him vs. an official wiki?
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:25 pm

Ree wrote: Why does it make a difference what I say about him vs. an official wiki?
Whoawhoawhoa

"Official" Wiki? Did I miss something?
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Ree » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:26 pm

Official meaning the DB wiki.
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:27 pm

Ree wrote:Official meaning the DB wiki.
The DB Wiki is a joke. I wouldn't recommend using anything from there, aside from basic "Goku is a Saiyan," "Bulma lives in West City," "Bubbles is a monkey," stuff.
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Ree » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:30 pm

Which one would you recommend?
the current discussion is about Vegita's personality so DB wiki should be no problem there right?
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:32 pm

Ree wrote:Which one would you recommend?
the current discussion is about Vegita's personality so DB wiki should be no problem there right?
Don't use a Wiki. That's my recommendation. The DB wiki has extremely low standards, and staff that actively resist improvement.

You don't need an encyclopedia to talk about a character's personality.
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Ree » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:34 pm

Okay thanks for the advice Kamiccolo9!
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:06 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Ree wrote:Which one would you recommend?
the current discussion is about Vegita's personality so DB wiki should be no problem there right?
Don't use a Wiki. That's my recommendation. The DB wiki has extremely low standards, and staff that actively resist improvement.

You don't need an encyclopedia to talk about a character's personality.
I second this. It's also a very dub-centric wiki, which is problematic in the case of Dragon Ball characters, because it wasn't really until Kai (well, OK, maybe a few video games before Kai) that the majority of those involved with the dub had a consistent, accurate understanding of who the characters are...and that's just in my opinion, there are a few here who feel that the improvements made in Kai and onward still aren't enough. I'm not one of them, but those people are certainly entitled to their opinion, and they do exist.

In any event, since the dub altered the character's personalities to varying degrees, the wiki, which revolves around the dub, is not a good source to go to for truly accurate descriptions of the characters. To give you an idea, a now-deleted section of Freeza's entry at one point had a sentence in the main body of the article which read, "Freeza has been described as a 'badass motherf***er'-type villain."
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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