What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by KaiserNeko » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:29 pm

Sabat's rendition come Kai is a much, much more appropriate take on Vegeta than anything Drummond even approached.

Drummond's take was snake-like, over the top, and a bit one dimensional. While he certainly killed the evil, intense side of the character, I never felt like he was believable all around. I love his more intense scenes and it's certainly an effective take on the character, but come the Cell and Buu sagas, I honestly felt like he never even came close to effectively portraying the whole character. Which is not exactly his fault, as I blame a rushed production schedule (which has been confirmed by several actors), constantly changing directors, and a lack of solid direction because I honestly do not believe anyone really cared about creating a solid Ocean dub post-Freeza.

Sabat on the other hand has been that character the longest, gotten to know him, get a real feel for him, and now has a much more well-rounded, natural delivery that gets the character better than any English voice actor for him has even come close to. Sure, his rasp is unnatural, but once you look past that you find the real soul of the character being delivered and that, I think, is the most important part.

It's like Scott McNeil with Piccolo: While I feel his performances in the first three movies were the best Piccolo has ever had in English, his performance in the series was still too over-the-top and, for the lack of a better word, "Cartoonish" and worse, absolutely suffered post-Freeza. Meanwhile, despite how "generic" people seem to think Sabat's portrayal is, he captures the stoic nature of Piccolo while also capturing his darker qualities as well. I don't believe the Namekians were ever supposed to sound non-human (the Japanese side certainly never, ever made that attempt) and his natural, deep delivery brings out a great presence from the character.

Do I think they're perfect? Naw, I think they still have some shortcomings. But nowadays, Sabat's got the core of the characters down and is delivering wonderfully on them both.

... now Recoome on the other hand...

Edit: Oh, and the whole "pained grunt" "confused grunt" thing in the Vegeta's Wrath compilation? Yeah, they're the exact same thing, despite the slight difference in delivery. Pained and Confused often go hand in hand. You can prefer one or the other, but trying to say one is better than the other in that scene is kind of silly. Not to mention, considering it's underwater, it can be said that the noise there was to help match the location, where a gasp would have been... well, problematic to say the last. This comes from someone who's directed professionals, been directed by professionals, worked as a professional, and has 8 years of training and experience. As far as the acting underwater goes, Sabat's delivery in Kai is at least on par with Drummond's. Also, yes, Drummond kills the screams there. His intensity is out of this world. But that doesn't count for all of Vegeta's character.
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by gohann » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:03 pm

ABED wrote:
I could have used multiple other scenes, that one was just the perfect example.
You don't think there are numerous conterexamples? Or examples of bad direction or acting from the Ocean dub?

Yes, Drummond's scream is amazing, but the direction was fine in Kai, he does get sufficiently angrier, it's not underplayed. If anything Drummond is a tad melodramatic. It's great, but a tad over the top with the delivery. Are you sure you're not listening to the redub?
You haven't listed any to debunk my argument.

There might be a slight increase in anger, but not by much. I can't disagree more with the "over the top" part, especially taking into account the context of that scene. The uncut version is almost basically the same as Remastered but with reverb and a better voice, though the Nicktoons Kai version at least sounds decent.

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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by ABED » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:46 pm

You gave one example, and not a great one. It's hardly characteristic of Kai as a whole nor of the Ocean dub as a whole. You want a great example of how much better Kai is to Ocean dub, watch the scene where Goku implores Kuririn to not kill Vegeta. It's not nearly as well done in the Ocean dub.
I can't disagree more with the "over the top" part,
"You won't escape... my WRATH!" The dramatic pause between escape and my is over the top and a tad melodramatic.

Sabat's performance isn't nearly as flat as the remastered version, and yes, that's a big increase in anger.
Sure, his rasp is unnatural
You think so? It sounds natural to me.
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by KaiserNeko » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:15 pm

ABED wrote:You gave one example, and not a great one. It's hardly characteristic of Kai as a whole nor of the Ocean dub as a whole. You want a great example of how much better Kai is to Ocean dub, watch the scene where Goku implores Kuririn to not kill Vegeta. It's not nearly as well done in the Ocean dub.
I can't disagree more with the "over the top" part,
"You won't escape... my WRATH!" The dramatic pause between escape and my is over the top and a tad melodramatic.

Sabat's performance isn't nearly as flat as the remastered version, and yes, that's a big increase in anger.
Sure, his rasp is unnatural
You think so? It sounds natural to me.
I haven't heard a single person his age, demeanor, height, etc. that sounds anything like that.

So... yeah, unnatural. But don't let that one part distract you from everything else I said! I still love his performance.
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:35 pm

KaiserNeko wrote:
ABED wrote:You gave one example, and not a great one. It's hardly characteristic of Kai as a whole nor of the Ocean dub as a whole. You want a great example of how much better Kai is to Ocean dub, watch the scene where Goku implores Kuririn to not kill Vegeta. It's not nearly as well done in the Ocean dub.
I can't disagree more with the "over the top" part,
"You won't escape... my WRATH!" The dramatic pause between escape and my is over the top and a tad melodramatic.

Sabat's performance isn't nearly as flat as the remastered version, and yes, that's a big increase in anger.
Sure, his rasp is unnatural
You think so? It sounds natural to me.
I haven't heard a single person his age, demeanor, height, etc. that sounds anything like that.

So... yeah, unnatural. But don't let that one part distract you from everything else I said! I still love his performance.
Well, interestingly enough, I like the unnatural rasp and feel that it works if we're specifically talking about Sabat's Vegeta.

Here's what I mean. If we're defining "natural" as what a human voice might sound like, then no, it doesn't really sound that natural. However, Vegeta is a saiyan. In fact, he's not only a saiyan, but he's the...well...the everybody-on-this-forum-should-know-by-this-point...of all saiyans. Unless their tails are cut off of course, saiyans can transform into oozarus, which are essentially savage beasts of war and combat. The rasp that Sabat uses with his voice for Vegeta gives his voice this beast-like quality that I've always thought was appropriate for the prince of a race of beings who can transform into beasts. So the voice works for me because of how it hints at the beast within him that lies dormant. Every time he speaks, it almost feels like there's a subtle feeling of a beast growling the words.

For that matter, that's just the voice. As far as his acting is concerned? I agree, he's completely nailing the character as of Kai. That's not meant as an anti-Drummond statement of course, I'm sure he could probably nail the character too...which, again, is one of the biggest reasons I've wanted to see the Ocean dub of Kai.

*PS: By the way, I have an admittedly weird, off-topic grammar question for anyone who wants to answer...I'm still confused to this day over whether or not "saiyan" or "oozaru" should be capitalized. Should they be? The word "human" is not capitalized, so on the one hand it seems consistent to not capitalize either "saiyan" or "oozaru," and yet I can't help but feel odd about not capitalizing those two words.
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by gohann » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:56 pm

ABED wrote:You gave one example, and not a great one. It's hardly characteristic of Kai as a whole nor of the Ocean dub as a whole. You want a great example of how much better Kai is to Ocean dub, watch the scene where Goku implores Kuririn to not kill Vegeta. It's not nearly as well done in the Ocean dub.
I can't disagree more with the "over the top" part,
"You won't escape... my WRATH!" The dramatic pause between escape and my is over the top and a tad melodramatic.

Sabat's performance isn't nearly as flat as the remastered version, and yes, that's a big increase in anger.
I was never saying the entire dub was better directed, just Vegeta in particular.That would be a great example if not for the fact that Ian Corlett sounds more genuine as the character. Everything else is better, so I'll give you that one.

Again, he was denied immortality and tricked.

The acting and voice are better, but the build-up is underwhelming, especially when compared to how Brian Drummond did it. "Filthy double-crossers!" sounds almost the same as the last lines, hence it falls flat to an extent.

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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Super Sonic » Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:21 pm

Haven't read much of the rest of this, but will say I thought his Vegeta had one of the all-time great cartoon villain voices up there. I'd put it up with Dr. Claw, Skeletor, Megatron, and Cobra Commander as one of those ones that really stick out and you recognize. (I also can say this shows that I'm old with who I'm referencing). If he was able to get away with talking about killing bluntly like Sabat was, could've been more sinister.

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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Fionordequester » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:14 pm

During the Ocean dub, when he first started, Brian Drummond's voice was simply too snake-like and exaggerated to be believable...but the Westwood dub came, and that's when something interesting happened. Apparently, doing Vegeta that way was starting to become murder on his lungs during that period, so his bosses actually allowed him to lower the pitch of his character. And I have to say, he sounded so much better as a result of it. I mean, it was still exaggerated and over-the-top, but it was still a lot more believable than what he had been doing before.

So, I think he was just kind of eh during the Ocean dub, but actually became pretty good in the Westwood dub. Not great mind you, but he still improved due to being able to use a voice that was closer to his actual one. Which is weird, because pretty much everyone else sounded so much worse there!
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by ABED » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:23 am

"Filthy double-crossers!" sounds almost the same as the last lines, hence it falls flat to an extent.
That's a factor of the writing not direction.
Again, he was denied immortality and tricked.
Yes... but the dramatic pause for emphasis.
I haven't heard a single person his age, demeanor, height, etc. that sounds anything like that.
It's natural within a certain context. No one sounds like Freeza, but they're both plausible. And I get ya, it's one minor issue you have with an otherwise solid performance, just askin'. I have heard people with plenty of rasp in their voice. Trunks' voice has unnatural rasp, whereas Sabat's sounds much less of a work.
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by NitroEX » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:17 am

ABEDr wrote:
I can't disagree more with the "over the top" part,
"You won't escape... my WRATH!" The dramatic pause between escape and my is over the top and a tad melodramatic.
It's perfectly fitting within the context of Dragon Ball Z though and more importantly, that scene. Most of the time DBZ is melodramatic and unrealistic (the animation often hints at this) so I don't see the problem with Drummond's delivery here. In comparison I find all of Sabat's deliveries to be underwhelming. Just because he's saying the line in a more realistic fashion doesn't make it more emotionally effective than Drummond's.

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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by ABED » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:43 am

It's perfectly fitting within the context of Dragon Ball Z though and more importantly, that scene. Most of the time DBZ is melodramatic and unrealistic (the animation often hints at this) so I don't see the problem with Drummond's delivery here.
I wouldn't consider that scene melodramatic. Vegeta's rightfully pissed (not rightfully in a moral sense), but does it call for an over the top melodramatic pause? No. I love the delivery, but it's very showy. Sabat's is very loud in Kai and has plenty of energy, but the delivery isn't melodramatic. It's not just the pause. Listen to how he builds and elongates the "you won't escape".
Just because he's saying the line in a more realistic fashion doesn't make it more emotionally effective than Drummond's.
Emotionally effective in what way?
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by NitroEX » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:51 pm

ABED wrote:
It's perfectly fitting within the context of Dragon Ball Z though and more importantly, that scene. Most of the time DBZ is melodramatic and unrealistic (the animation often hints at this) so I don't see the problem with Drummond's delivery here.
I wouldn't consider that scene melodramatic. Vegeta's rightfully pissed (not rightfully in a moral sense), but does it call for an over the top melodramatic pause? No.
The same can be said of the animation, does Vegeta need to have white pupils, red blood vessels in his eyes, veins popping out of his head and an exaggeratedly long mouth to convey that he's berserk? No, but they did it anyway to make the scene more dramatic. I think the visuals here are very over the top and flashy and IMO that calls for a larger than life vocal delivery.
ABED wrote:I love the delivery, but it's very showy. Sabat's is very loud in Kai and has plenty of energy, but the delivery isn't melodramatic. It's not just the pause. Listen to how he builds and elongates the "you won't escape".
This is just part of the artistry behind voice acting though. Think of it like singing a song lyric, the singer's going to deliver it in a way that's pleasing to the ear and Drummond is doing the same thing by building to a crescendo in order to to make "MY WRATH!" sound more effective. All this shows is that he put intelligent thought into his delivery instead of just shouting wildly at the top of his lungs throughout the whole thing.

I think the issue is that you want a realistic delivery whereas someone like myself feels that type of acting doesn't always compliment the anime's visuals.
ABED wrote:
Just because he's saying the line in a more realistic fashion doesn't make it more emotionally effective than Drummond's.
Emotionally effective in what way?
Emotionally effective in that it both conveys Vegeta's fury as well as creating the right audience reaction. His delivery in that scene is convincing enough to have you feeling apprehensive for the heroes because you know sh*t's about to go down. I don't feel the same watching the other versions but that's partly because I've seen the show many times and I've already been spoiled with Drummond's delivery.

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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:25 pm

kaiserneko wrote:... now Recoome on the other hand...
...was one of his best works! =D
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by ABED » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:35 pm

Emotionally effective in that it both conveys Vegeta's fury as well as creating the right audience reaction. His delivery in that scene is convincing enough to have you feeling apprehensive for the heroes because you know sh*t's about to go down. I don't feel the same watching the other versions but that's partly because I've seen the show many times and I've already been spoiled with Drummond's delivery.
I don't think that's true. I think most people were just taken aback by how awesome that yell was. I don't think there was as much of an emotional "our heroes are screwed". It's impossible to tell who's right, but all I recall reading was how awesome the scream was, not the emotional impact of the performance. The time I did feel like shit was about to go down was when Drummond's Vegeta was powering up to fight Reacoom.

This is just part of the artistry behind voice acting though. Think of it like singing a song lyric, the singer's going to deliver it in a way that's pleasing to the ear and Drummond is doing the same thing by building to a crescendo in order to to make "MY WRATH!" sound more effective. All this shows is that he put intelligent thought into his delivery instead of just shouting wildly at the top of his lungs throughout the whole thing.
I think the issue is that you want a realistic delivery whereas someone like myself feels that type of acting doesn't always compliment the anime's visuals.
It's more akin to a talented singer needlessly embellish Happy Birthday. I'm sorry if I'm not explaining it well enough, I'm not a musician. I'm not arguing for just straight up realistic delivery, I want it to match the visuals, which Sabat's did, it just didn't gild the lily.
No, but they did it anyway to make the scene more dramatic. I think the visuals here are very over the top and flashy and IMO that calls for a larger than life vocal delivery.
But that's not drama, that's melodrama, the visuals call for something big, but not necessarily showy. It's too showy. It's certainly cool and amazing, but calls unnecessary attention to itself and oversells the moment. I don't think it says "our heroes are in trouble" it says "this scream is amazing".
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Son Gohan 1995 » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:03 pm

I like him. Probably more than chris sabat to be honnest.

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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Singh is King » Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:30 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:
kaiserneko wrote:... now Recoome on the other hand...
...was one of his best works! =D
10/10 trolling, man. :mrgreen:
Sayo-chan wrote:I'd take Drummond over Sabat any day. I may have grown up with Drummond playing Vegeta, but that doesn't make my opinion's shortsighted or blinded by nostalgia. People (see: YouTube) seem to have this misconception that liking a portrayal of a certain character gives them merit in saying you're a fan of a dub as a whole. This couldn't be further from the truth.
While I prefer Sabat over Drummond for Vegeta myself, I agree that the "nostalgia" claims don't really have any logic behind them most of the time, seeing as most of those people don't actually give reasoning for why they have their preferences altogether (YouTube really is one of the worst sites about this nowadays).

Also, Sabat's imitation voice of Drummond that you mentioned (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByBvcHT3QW0) really was plain awful, I get where you're coming from there. I think Sabat has come a long way, though, from that abysmal take on Vegeta myself.

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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by ABED » Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:39 pm

He has come a long way, but let's keep in mind that he was told to imitate another actor.
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by Sayo-chan » Fri Sep 11, 2015 11:40 pm

gohann wrote: Also, might I mention that the uncut scenes sound notably worse than the Nicktoons versions?
I pointed this out in my first post. I believe this is due to the filter added.
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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by NitroEX » Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:32 am

ABED wrote:I don't think that's true. I think most people were just taken aback by how awesome that yell was. I don't think there was as much of an emotional "our heroes are screwed". It's impossible to tell who's right, but all I recall reading was how awesome the scream was, not the emotional impact of the performance. The time I did feel like shit was about to go down was when Drummond's Vegeta was powering up to fight Reacoom.
Don't know what to tell ya, I felt the exact opposite. I was impressed by the yell against Recoome and felt more apprehensive during the "my wrath" scene.
ABED wrote:It's more akin to a talented singer needlessly embellish Happy Birthday. I'm sorry if I'm not explaining it well enough, I'm not a musician. I'm not arguing for just straight up realistic delivery, I want it to match the visuals, which Sabat's did, it just didn't gild the lily.
But that's not drama, that's melodrama, the visuals call for something big, but not necessarily showy. It's too showy. It's certainly cool and amazing, but calls unnecessary attention to itself and oversells the moment. I don't think it says "our heroes are in trouble" it says "this scream is amazing".
Again I'm gonna have to disagree on this. The anime is melodramatic, the visuals in this scene are very "showy" and the performance reflects that. You keep using melodrama as if it's always an inherently bad thing but I don't see what's so bad about it. To my understanding it's actually a popular form of acting/storytelling outside the west and it works just fine for the anime in my opinion. Drummond has stated that he had a background in theatre and typically those type of actors have to give a showy or larger than life portrayal. It's only when they switch to something like live action TV that they have to give a more subtle/natural acting style but again, this is DBZ we're talking about, it's a perfect fit for grand theatrical styled performances.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand the need for subtlety in certain scenes, it shouldn't always be over the top, but this is a moment that clearly doesn't call for subtlety in any way.
If anything's at fault in this scene it's the writing, "I'll get you for this, you won't escape... my wrath!" isn't all that great on it's own but Drummond managed to turn it into gold with his delivery, it's a testament to how good of an actor he actually is. In my opinion you're finding fault were there really is none, Drummond nailed it first try, Sabat... not so much.
Sayo-chan wrote:Horikawa overall does a good job, but he's not at all perfect. He sounds bored half the time in Kai, kind of how Drummond often sounds bored or lackluster in the Boo saga and GT.
Brian Drummond didn't dub Vegeta in GT, that was Roger Rhodes from the Blue Water cast. Also I personally don't think he sounded bored in the Boo saga. He often acted with more passion and energy than Sabat, even when compared to the remastered Z dub.

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Re: What do you guys think of Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:20 am

Theater has to be showy to reach everyone in the audience. It's practical more than anything else.

I'm by no means asking for subtlety, just the right amount of anger and a delivery that comes across as fake. Where did I ever say I want something subtle?
If anything's at fault in this scene it's the writing, "I'll get you for this, you won't escape... my wrath!" isn't all that great on it's own but Drummond managed to turn it into gold with his delivery, it's a testament to how good of an actor he actually is. In my opinion you're finding fault were there really is none, Drummond nailed it first try, Sabat... not so much.
Who cares if Sabat did in on the first try? What matters is he got it. And you seem to put the blame on the remastered version on Sabat, but Drummond you give what little fault it has on the writing. Or maybe not, but that's how it comes across. Again, that wasn't what I was arguing, I merely said that I think Sabat's acting in Kai is great and my preferred take on the scene, though I wouldn't trade that for Drummond's take. I'm glad Drummond's exists, but it's not my preference for what the scene should be.

I'm finding fault with the execution of the scene in the Ocean dub. Regardless of whether it's the writing, directing (which is where this diversion began in the first place), or acting, I have no idea. I simply find it too over the top. It's fun and Drummond is amazing, but it's not what that scene should be doing. The scene should be about eliciting an emotion of concern of the well being of the heroes, not "this is so cool, that scream is amazing!"
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