Refering to the Japanese version as a "dub"

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Re: Refering to the Japanese version as a "dub"

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:47 pm

That's American animation in general vs. Japanese animation is general. It's not specific to Dragon Ball.
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Re: Refering to the Japanese version as a "dub"

Post by ABED » Fri Oct 02, 2015 12:57 pm

VegettoEX wrote:That's American animation in general vs. Japanese animation is general. It's not specific to Dragon Ball.
I figured, do you have an idea of why that is?
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Re: Refering to the Japanese version as a "dub"

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:16 pm

ABED wrote:
VegettoEX wrote:That's American animation in general vs. Japanese animation is general. It's not specific to Dragon Ball.
I figured, do you have an idea of why that is?
Tony Oliver explained it this way, and it makes sense to me, but if others feel there's a different explanation, feel free to say so. As he explained it though, the reason that anime isn't as concerned with accurate lip flaps as American animation is because Japan is used to receiving a lot of animation (and for that matter, live-action movies and TV shows) from other countries, and so they're accustomed to seeing Japanese dubs where the lip movements aren't 100% accurate. They've just seen that often enough that they're used to it, and it doesn't bother them. As such, it led to a general cultural understanding in Japan that...that's just how cartoons look. The lip movements don't always match, and they don't consider it a big deal.

So it's not distracting to Japanese audiences given how much of it they've seen. However, America is not quite as accustomed to importing other shows. Quite the contrary, we're probably the biggest exporter of shows in the world. So we're used to seeing shows and cartoons where the lip movements do match. When the lip movements don't match, it can become distracting to the point of being famous. I mean, when I mention the word "dub" in casual conversation to people who don't watch dubbed shows or movies, the general reaction I get is, "Oh, isn't that, like...like the Godzilla thing where the lips don't match?" So, since we notice it more, it's a higher priority for us to have accurate lip movements, both in our domestic productions and in our dubs.

Now of course, I don't mean to pin that on America. It's distracting for other cultures too. In French dubs, for example, when the dialogue is adapted into French, the dialogue adapters take a great deal of time to try and not only be accurate with the script, but also to come up with revised dialogue that matches the lip movements pretty damn precisely, to the point that somebody wouldn't notice that the lip movements don't match exactly unless they're actively looking for it. As such, between that and France's rhythmo-band dubbing method, French dubs are known for having exceptionally good lip-syncing in their dubs.

So, that's the long version. The short version is this: lip movements that aren't 100% accurate doesn't bother Japanese audiences because they're just used to it as a culture.
Last edited by TheBlackPaladin on Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Refering to the Japanese version as a "dub"

Post by ABED » Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:36 pm

That makes sense to me, thanks.
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Re: Refering to the Japanese version as a "dub"

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:33 pm

ABED wrote:
the original Japanese version of Dragon Ball had issues with these two things.
Is it me or does the American version make it a point to match the mouth flaps much moreso than the Japanese do?
In general, I'd say that most of the dubs of the DB series have better sync than the Japanese version.
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Re: Refering to the Japanese version as a "dub"

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:10 pm

ABED wrote: It's not bending over backwards, the performance is going to carry the show. Why should a performance suffer just so he can match the animation? What if he feels the line should have more energy, or should be more subdued? Tough noogies since he's locked into matching to the animation. And this is hardly bending over backwards. I don't even know where you got that idea from. And it makes less sense for the actors to match the animation.
Voice actors still have room to experiment in post-lay, they're simply not dictating the tone and energy of a line of dialogue, the director, storyboard artist, and key animators are. Pre-lay for the sake of pre-lay means filtering their expressions through voice actors who want their opinions to be considered over many others', others who have already spent countless hours breaking down and deciding on what they want to express and how they want to express.
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Re: Refering to the Japanese version as a "dub"

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:49 pm

It's a ways off, but personally, I think the future of dubbing lies in something called "alternate lip-sync dubbing."

This is not common at all right now, but on select rare occasions, there are companies who have said that they are willing to re-animate the lip movements of the characters on screen to match the lip movements of the English dubbing actors...but only the lip movements. So it's still dubbing in the sense that the actors still have to match the overall speed of the scene as well as the body motions of the characters on screen, but it's like pre-lay in the sense that they don't have to match the lip movements, which will be re-animated later according to how the revised English dialogue is delivered (and they put cameras in the recording booths, zoomed in on the actor's lips, so the animators have something to reference).

Again, though, this is pretty rare. Animation does cost money, after all, and right now alternate lip-sync dubs are not very affordable. They have been done, though. One such example that I can think of is the English dub of Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core. If you'll notice, all of the CGI scenes have the lip movements re-animated to match the English dialogue.

-The scene in the original Japanese version
-The scene in the alternate lip-sync English dub

Here's hoping they do this more often!
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Re: Refering to the Japanese version as a "dub"

Post by Puto » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:55 am

They could do what KaiserNeko does with DBZ Abridged and just have the dub studio edit the lipflaps.
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Re: Refering to the Japanese version as a "dub"

Post by Footlong Shoe » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:45 pm

Puto wrote:They could do what KaiserNeko does with DBZ Abridged and just have the dub studio edit the lipflaps.
When they do that, it's less marketable for sub fans buying their DVDs. I wouldn't want to watch it in Japanese if I'm not even watching the same animation.
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Re: Refering to the Japanese version as a "dub"

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:17 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Voice actors still have room to experiment in post-lay, they're simply not dictating the tone and energy of a line of dialogue, the director, storyboard artist, and key animators are. Pre-lay for the sake of pre-lay means filtering their expressions through voice actors who want their opinions to be considered over many others', others who have already spent countless hours breaking down and deciding on what they want to express and how they want to express.
You make it sound as if pre-lay VAs just stepped into a recording booth and did whatever they wanted. Pre-lay or post-lay, there's still a director guiding the actors.
The difference between them, for instance, is glaringly clear in Super's Kaio.
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