Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc?

Post by precita » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:12 pm

Goku completely fails in stopping Vegeta. In fact Goku loses the fight to Vegeta. He is completely immobilized when he transforms into an ape and then thrown to the ground where he lays and does nothing until Vegeta is defeated besides giving advice. While you can arguably say Goku might have beaten Vegeta had he not decided to transform into an ape, we still don't know that for sure.

It was the combined efforts of Gohan (fighting Vegeta and transforming into an ape), Krillin (throwing the spirt bomb at Vegeta, with Gohan bouncing it back), and Yajirobe (cutting off Vegeta's tail and slashing through his armor), that stopped him.

Goku was only the end-game victor of two sagas, the Freeza saga and the Buu saga, where he's the one who stops both villains. The Saiyan saga and Cell saga are won by Gohan and other characters.

So why do people tend to forget Goku wasn't the victor or hero of the Saiyan arc? Its like people overlook the fact that this saga is already where Toriyama was trying to pass the torch from Goku to Gohan.

User avatar
Gyt Kaliba
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8761
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:38 am
Location: Arkansas
Contact:

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:15 pm

I think at least a small part of it seems to be that Vegeta himself almost seems to forget that he technically won their first (and really their second fight later on during the Boo arc) fight. For a small portion of the Namek arc, he talks about wanting to get revenge on 'Kakarot and those earthlings', but his focus seems to switch very quickly to solely 'Kakarot' for whatever reason.
My Writing Endeavors - Twitter
"There are two kinds of folks who sit around thinking about how to kill people. Psychopaths, and mystery writers. I'm the kind that pays better." - Richard Castle, 'Castle'

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 16069
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:26 pm

It was the combined efforts of Gohan (fighting Vegeta and transforming into an ape), Krillin (throwing the spirt bomb at Vegeta, with Gohan bouncing it back), and Yajirobe (cutting off Vegeta's tail and slashing through his armor), that stopped him.
And Goku's Genki Dama, give credit where it's due. Let's not forget that it was Goku that told Gohan to bounce it back

I think Goku, more than the others, screwed with his worldview which is basically a caste system. Goku was a lower class, he shouldn't have gotten as far as he did.
Last edited by ABED on Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
LightBing
I Live Here
Posts: 3468
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:47 am

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by LightBing » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:30 pm

Gyt Kaliba wrote:I think at least a small part of it seems to be that Vegeta himself almost seems to forget that he technically won their first (and really their second fight later on during the Boo arc) fight. For a small portion of the Namek arc, he talks about wanting to get revenge on 'Kakarot and those earthlings', but his focus seems to switch very quickly to solely 'Kakarot' for whatever reason.
He's focused on Goku since he reached Super Saiyan(And beyond) first, which should be his privilege as the Elite he thinks he is.

Regarding the topic, is it a popular opinion? I always thought it was the best example of teamwork the series so desperately tries to avoid. Vegeta lost to the Earthlings not to Goku.

User avatar
Soppa Saia People
I Live Here
Posts: 2605
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:26 pm
Location: minnesota
Contact:

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Soppa Saia People » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:34 pm

Because he didn't lose.
they/them pronouns
my twitter
14 year old me didn't know how to spell "Saiya"......

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by precita » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:47 pm

Goku did lose. Had Gohan and Krillin not decided to return to the battlefield (remember they were flying back to Roshi's Island), there's no way Goku would have won. Even if Yajirobe had cut off Vegeta's tail, Vegeta was still battle-ready.

Gohan fought Vegeta a ton and it was Krillin/Gohan hitting him with the Spirit Bomb that caused Vegeta to almost lose, and then Gohan falling on him as an ape did him in.

s841
Newbie
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:20 pm

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by s841 » Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:51 pm

I guess because Goku was the one that made the spirit bomb?

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5695
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:44 pm

Goku also needed Tien's help to defeat King Piccolo. And the help of Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo to defeat Freeza. And the help of Vegeta, Mr. Buu, and Mr. Satan to defeat Kid Buu.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5473
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Cipher » Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:45 pm

Goku still manages to play a large role in saving the world there, as without his wearing Vegeta down with the Kaioken and later the Genki Dama, no one would have had a chance in hell of winning.

But yes, he does lose to Vegeta, and Vegeta loses only to the tenacity and teamwork of all four of the remaining Earth fighters at that point.

Also, the everybody vs. Vegeta portion of the fight is one of the best parts of the series. So good.

User avatar
TripleRach
Moderator
Posts: 2656
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:08 pm
Location: Ohio, USA
Contact:

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by TripleRach » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:07 pm

precita wrote:Goku was only the end-game victor of two sagas, the Freeza saga and the Buu saga, where he's the one who stops both villains. The Saiyan saga and Cell saga are won by Gohan and other characters.
Don't forget he also defeated the Red Ribbon Army and both Piccolos. He also beat more independent opponents (Oolong, Yamcha, Rabbits, Pilaf Machines, etc) than anyone, and was probably the most successful tournament competitor in the series after Mr. Satan. Never mind enemies unique to the anime (especially GT) and the movies... I'm probably nitpicking the obvious, but I didn't see "Z" specified anywhere, and I've seen a lot of people do this lately. So it bugs me.

Anyway, I imagine people are just simplifying things rather than ignoring or forgetting the others. Or maybe they're viewing it like a wrestling match: it started out as a one-on-one fight between Gokuu and Vegeta, but Gokuu's allies interfered and Vegeta lost because it was no DQ. In comparison, Raditz was more of a handicap match from the start, and Nappa was sort of a gauntlet match.

Plus, when people think of the Vegeta battle in the Saiyan arc, the stances on the cliffs and Kamehameha vs Galick Gun are some of the most iconic moments in the entire series. Oozaru Gohan or Kuririn tossing the Genkidama, not so much.
-Rachel

User avatar
nickzambuto
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:53 pm

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by nickzambuto » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:41 pm

Goku WAS the victor, more specifically he was one of the victors. But he was on that team so the victory is his, and Vegeta was the ultimate loser.

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5467
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by precita » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:52 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Goku also needed Tenshinhan's help to defeat King Piccolo.
Tien did nothing against King Piccolo. Or rather, after using the evil containment wave he did nothing else and lost to Drum. Goku beat King Piccolo all by himself.
And the help of Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo to defeat Freeza. And the help of Vegeta, Mr. Buu, and Mr. Satan to defeat Kid Buu.
This I see differently, because Freeza wasn't "worn down" by the fights with the previous characters he just had to transform. Had Goku arrived at Freeza's first form there would have been no difference because he would have had to transform the same way.

With the Vegeta fight it was clearly a team effort to bring him down. Vegeta never recovered.

User avatar
Soppa Saia People
I Live Here
Posts: 2605
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:26 pm
Location: minnesota
Contact:

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:03 am

precita wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:Goku also needed Tenshinhan's help to defeat King Piccolo.
Tenshinhan did nothing against King Piccolo. Or rather, after using the evil containment wave he did nothing else and lost to Drum.Gokubeat King Piccolo all by himself.
And the help of Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo to defeat Freeza. And the help of Vegeta, Mr. Buu, and Mr. Satan to defeat Kid Buu.
This I see differently, because Freeza wasn't "worn down" by the fights with the previous characters he just had to transform. Had Goku arrived at Freeza's first form there would have been no difference because he would have had to transform the same way.

With the Vegeta fight it was clearly a team effort to bring him down. Vegeta never recovered.
Wrong! Without Ten, Goku would have been killed as he saves form Piccolo in the fight.
Last edited by Soppa Saia People on Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
they/them pronouns
my twitter
14 year old me didn't know how to spell "Saiya"......

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by sintzu » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:14 am

precita wrote:While you can arguably say Goku might have beaten Vegeta had he not decided to transform into an ape, we still don't know that for sure.
After their beam struggle Goku couldn't take a simple slap from Yajerobe so Vegeta would've won easily.

In terms of the overall battle,Vegeta won the battle against Goku but lost the war against earth.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
TheGreatness25
I Live Here
Posts: 4157
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:36 am

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:36 am

I think that it was the simple fact that Goku was more powerful than Vegeta and made Vegeta to resort to using his Great Ape form. Vegeta couldn't use it again, so technically, he didn't have that trick up his sleeve anymore. Gohan and the others weren't more powerful than Vegeta, they essentially just got lucky. Vegeta's true beef is with Goku because he was the only one that could surpass him.

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5695
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:38 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:I think that it was the simple fact that Goku was more powerful than Vegeta and made Vegeta to resort to using his Great Ape form. Vegeta couldn't use it again, so technically, he didn't have that trick up his sleeve anymore. Gohan and the others weren't more powerful than Vegeta, they essentially just got lucky. Vegeta's true beef is with Goku because he was the only one that could surpass him.
Except for all of the other people he already knew were stronger than him...
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
fadeddreams5
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5137
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:53 pm
Location: New York

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:39 am

Goku got the best of Vegeta before he opted to transform into an Oozaru. Goku, a low class saiyan, overpowered him, and that's what Vegeta considers a loss.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

User avatar
DBZAOTA482
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6381
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:20 am

fadeddreams5 wrote:Goku got the best of Vegeta before he opted to transform into an Oozaru. Goku, a low class saiyan, overpowered him, and that's what Vegeta considers a loss.
This.

But Vegeta still won...
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=31207&p=969551#p969545

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by sintzu » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:45 am

TheGreatness25 wrote: Goku was more powerful than Vegeta and made Vegeta to resort to using his Great Ape form.

Gohan and the others essentially just got lucky.
Vegeta made Goku use the Kaioken so doesn't that mean he's more powerful ?

Yeah cause if he got out of Gohan's way after cutting off his tail they would've been finished.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
ZombieVito
I Live Here
Posts: 4142
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:10 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:Goku got the best of Vegeta before he opted to transform into an Oozaru. Goku, a low class saiyan, overpowered him, and that's what Vegeta considers a loss.
This.

But Vegeta still won...
Vegeta? Won? How?

Not only did he retreat and got humiliated but he didn't kill a single person he fought against.

Post Reply