Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc?

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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by sintzu » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:33 am

Zombie wrote:
Vegeta? Won? How?
He broke every bone in Goku's body.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by irreality » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:50 am

I think utlimately, it is because Vegeta was alive only by Goku's grace, and Vegeta can't say the same. So he lost. Vegeta was undoubtedly stronger overall, but he ended up being subject to the mercy of someone he considers beneath him.
Last edited by irreality on Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:59 am

Goku lost the fight, but he gave a heavy hit to Vegeta's pride. He surpassed base Vegeta in their one-on-one fight, and Vegeta was forced to use Oozaru against a low-class scum.
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Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by LuckyCat » Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:20 am

Like Kaioshin says in BoG, one of Goku's strengths is being able to gain allies to fight with him. Krillin, Yajirobe, and Gohan (via Chichi) are all strong fighters that Goku had as allies, while Vegeta did not. Thus, Goku's character won the fight over Vegeta's.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:59 pm

This isn't even a case of Goku losing the battle but winning the war against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc. He lost the battle and the war. Vegeta crippled him to the point where he couldn't fight back and then had to spend a extended period of time in a hospital. And even after all was said and done, Vegeta still lived and escaped Earth.

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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:04 pm

No one won against Vegeta. Vegeta left Earth and the rest of the Z fighters didn't have much power to finish him off. Goku also lost to Radditz since he give up his life just to kill him.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by ABED » Fri Oct 23, 2015 6:52 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:No one won against Vegeta. Vegeta left Earth and the rest of the Z fighters didn't have much power to finish him off. Goku also lost to Radditz since he give up his life just to kill him.
Vegeta fled, he didn't just leave. Kuririn would've killed him, but Goku stopped him. Goku didn't lose to Raditz, he and Piccolo won. You have an odd interpretation of these battles.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:21 pm

Piccolo kill Radditz, not Goku. That's why some people view Goku's battle against Radditz as a lost since he didn't beat him.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by ABED » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:41 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:Piccolo kill Radditz, not Goku. That's why some people view Goku's battle against Radditz as a lost since he didn't beat him.
And they'd be wrong. Piccolo and Goku fought together. Piccolo's attack wouldn't have worked unless his teammate (i.e., Goku) didn't do his job by holding Raditz in place.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by TheBigBoy » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:39 am

What was Goku's goal? To stop the Saiyans from getting the Dragon Balls and wiping all life off the planet. There were casualties and a city blown off the map...but he and the others ultimately succeeded.

What was Vegeta's goal? To get the Dragon Balls and wish for eternal life and kill(or possibly recruit) Goku. He failed at both ends. I would say Goku won.

Speaking of Vegeta...he is such a tough bastard during this fight. Gets roughed up by a Kaio-Ken powered Goku, gets blasted into the stratosphere by a Kamehameha, gets his eye blown out, gets punked by Yajirobe TWICE, gets his with a Genki Dama and then gets crushed by Oozaru Gohan. Then in the next arc, Zarbon only takes like 5 minutes to beat him.

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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Fionordequester » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:06 pm

Here's the thing with Vegeta, and I think this is important to understanding why he believes he lost to Goku. He didn't know that Goku's Kaioken had drawbacks! As far as he could tell, Goku's power just exploded all of a sudden, and then he was forced to turn into an Oozaru after getting his butt stomped into the ground repeatedly. He probably thought that Goku was just naturally that strong.

And then yes, he pulls the Oozaru card, but that's basically cheating, at least from Vegeta's perspective. It would be like if I fought a UFC match with someone, got the snot kicked out of me for 2-3 minutes, and then I "won" by pulling a shotgun out of my trunks and blasting the guy. Ok, great, I guess I "won" that match, but I still haven't proven that I was a better martial artist than the other guy. In fact, I've proven just the opposite. I've proven that I had to cheat in order to win.

And that was the position Vegeta thought he was in. He thought that Goku's Kaioken was just his natural power. He didn't know about all the drawbacks that came with it.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:31 pm

He didn't know that Goku's Kaioken had drawbacks!
I don't think Vegeta would've cared either way. I truely think his beef was Goku disproving his world view. Before the fight even began Vegeta said something akin to "Your power was tested when you were younger, you are a lower class fighter and lower class fighters can never beat an elite"
To which Goku replied "I might just show you that if even a lower class fighter works hard enough they might be able to defeat even an elite."

No, Goku didn't win, but he beat the hell out of Vegeta, way more than Vegeta ever thought possible, not to mention, Goku crippled Nappa.

I don't think the transformation is cheating either. If that was the case, Goku cheated against Freeza and Gohan cheated against Cell. It was a life and death battle and turning Great Ape was a natural technique for him. It's a part of who he is.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by sintzu » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:35 pm

Fionordequester wrote:Here's the thing with Vegeta, and I think this is important to understanding why he believes he lost to Goku. He didn't know that Goku's Kaioken had drawbacks! As far as he could tell, Goku's power just exploded all of a sudden, and then he was forced to turn into an Oozaru after getting his butt stomped into the ground repeatedly. He probably thought that Goku was just naturally that strong.
You'd think Goku would've told him by now to make his life a bit easier.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:02 pm

Of course we also have the inaccurate dub line of Vegeta being familiar with similar techniques to Kaio-ken.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Travis Touchdown » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:12 pm

While we the reader/viewer know that after that beam struggle Goku was out of steam, Vegeta didn't know that. From his point of view, Goku bested him in hand to hand combat to the point where Vegeta made it a battle of ki, and Goku bested him there as well. As far as Vegeta is concerned, Goku had proven himself to be superior in every way. WE know that Goku was so battered, beaten, and sore from the Kaio-Ken X4, that all Vegeta had to do was sneeze in his general direction to defeat him, but Vegeta didn't know that.

Vegeta laments on his frustration at having to go Oozaru because he knows it's cheap and unfair, but he was determined to win so he did it anyway. In the aftermath, Vegeta suffers from self-humiliation at the fact he went Oozaru and desires to defeat Goku in a fair fight.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Sandubadear » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:34 pm

The battle wasn't just Goku x Vegeta, it's Earth vs. Saiyans. Half of both teams were killed, but it's fair to say that Earth won the battle.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Gmez9 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:55 am

I say goku lost, but I think people don't like to admit he lost.

He barely managed to stop vegitas wrath with the help of gohan, yajirobe, and krillin.

Also, goku made vegita resort to changing into oozaru form which vegita was probably insulted by being an elite and all. It wasn't a one sided fight but vegita had the upper hand. Some vegita fans act like it was worse than brolli legendary ssj when he massacres everyone (1st movie).

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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by Rory » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:42 pm

They both lost, which is what makes it an interesting result.
Gokuh's loss is more blatant, having every bone in his body broken, and knowing full well he didn't stand a chance without Kaio-ken (which he couldn't beat Vegeta with regardless).
Vegeta, as others have said already, had to lower himself to the level of a lower class. He might not have lost the battle with Kakarrot, but he lost something far more important, his dignity as the elite warrior prince. He didn't need to lose in a one-on-one fight with Gokuh to lose that.

I think people just take the fight at face value (cause it's a show for kids, so you're obviously gonna get a lot of simple evaluations), when really there's more going on than that, some would say more important things going on, especially from a character perspective.

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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by FortuneSSJ » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:03 pm

Goku never won once agaisnt Vegeta. Its not even a opinion. Its a fact.

1º fight - Goku ends up with all his bones broken. Can't even crawl. Vegeta still stands up against Gohan, Krillin and Yajirobe.
2º fight - Knock out. Doesn't matter if it was dick move or the fact that Goku could have used ssj3, he was knocked out. Knock out = Lost.
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Re: Why do people consider Goku the victor in the Saiyan arc

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:22 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:Goku never won once agaisnt Vegeta. Its not even a opinion. Its a fact.

2º fight - Knock out. Doesn't matter if it was dick move or the fact that Goku could have used ssj3, he was knocked out. Knock out = Lost.
The fight was called off, that doesn't count.
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