The utter failure that is Revival of F.

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The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by Lord Exor » Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:03 am

I must admit I spoiled myself on the film as soon as it saw release in Japan, leading to a jaded perspective right off the bat. As a result, I deferred watching the movie for quite some time. Needless to say, with its Blu-Ray release, I have since viewed it in full.

In an effort to be as concise as possible, I'm going to eschew enumerating the movie's positive points. Merely assume that if I don't present it here as a negative aspect, it was either passable or superbly executed. I will now begin listing off what I perceive to be critical flaws.

1. The entire plot loses all gravitas the moment Beerus and Whis participate. Beerus and Whis are terrible, terrible characters, especially within the context of this particular plot. I don't mind mentor figures for the protagonists; I especially don't mind newer mentor figures as Goku's journey progresses. What I do take umbrage with is in how they're portrayed. In particular, their power levels are presented as excessive to the point of being able to easily thwart the story's primary antagonist. They don't even have to actively engage Frieza; the damage to the plot is done with their very presence, couched on the mere possibility that they could act at any point to stop him. And despite the affectation of neutrality, they ultimately intervene when Whis activates his Deus ex Machina. It was telegraphed as an important plot point early on, and deprives the characters of any sense of danger.

2. Frieza makes the same mistake... again. In his haste to exact retribution, he fails to sufficiently master his full power, and ends up puttering out after a brief upper hand. Déjà vu anyone? I thought both Toriyama (and even FUNimation) were trying to sell us on just how erudite and clever Frieza is. If he's so intelligent, then why didn't he rectify his former Achilles heel? And this segues into my next point, which is concerned with the dub.

3. Chris Ayres and Frieza as a whole. While not a bad actor by any means (as a fan of Linda Young, even I admit that Ayres could do a fantastic job in her stead given a proper script), his portrayal is far from ideal. FUNimation went out of its way to feed Chris as many overwrought and clearly-prepared sentences as possible, anticipating that he would deliver them with his usual swiftness. This isn't a flaw inherent to Revival of F, as it carries over from their efforts on Kai. Needless to say, Frieza's sesquipedalianism and brisk delivery does the character no favors. It's meant to convey a certain degree of genius and sophistication, yet his actions and violent outbursts of indignation signal something completely different: that he's a spoiled aristocratic brat. And that's all he comes off as, especially in this movie. The unrepentant mass murderer; the sick and twisted psychopath--these personality traits are almost wholly absent from both the script and Chris's performance. There are a few instances of sardonic, mocking wit as he addresses Gohan, but it seems he'd sooner lecture his minion on the definition of salubrious than wallow in the suffering he causes. It takes more than big words to signify brainpower, it also takes smart action. See: Palpatine/Darth Sidious from Star Wars.

Once Goku and Vegeta arrive, Frieza loses all control, and the threat is exiguous to the point of begging the question of precisely why I'm interested in the first place. If his defeat is a flagrantly foregone conclusion, then why am I bothering to invest myself? His pathetically obsequious interaction with Beerus is yet another knock at the tyrant's screen presence, reducing him to a plaything for the saiyans. Yes, he destroys the Earth in desperation (déjà vu once more, nothing new to see here), but even that small advance in menace is quickly erased with Whis's absurd time-travel power.

In summation, Toriyama himself undermines the entire point of Revival of F, further cementing my view that the man should let someone else take the helm. And that's rather ironic coming me me, an unabashed fan of George Lucas and detractor of everything The Force Awakens.

If this the direction Super is heading in, then count me out. I don't even want that series localized.
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—Frieza

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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by Cipher » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:37 am

Post-drinking Halloween response goooooooo:
Lord Exor wrote:1. The entire plot loses all gravitas the moment Beerus and Whis participate. Beerus and Whis are terrible, terrible characters, especially within the context of this particular plot. I don't mind mentor figures for the protagonists; I especially don't mind newer mentor figures as Goku's journey progresses. What I do take umbrage with is in how they're portrayed. In particular, their power levels are presented as excessive to the point of being able to easily thwart the story's primary antagonist. They don't even have to actively engage Freeza; the damage to the plot is done with their very presence, couched on the mere possibility that they could act at any point to stop him. And despite the affectation of neutrality, they ultimately intervene when Whis activates his Deus ex Machina. It was telegraphed as an important plot point early on, and deprives the characters of any sense of danger.
It's act two of three, which even the movie makes clear. If Freeza were presented as a major threat within the movie's own tonal contract, I'd agree with you, but from square one he's presented as an obstacle for Goku and Vegeta to move past, which works with both its own second-act placement and as a subversion of arcs to come before.
2. Freeza makes the same mistake... again. In his haste to exact retribution, he fails to sufficiently master his full power, and ends up puttering out after a brief upper hand. Déjà vu anyone? I thought both Toriyama (and even FUNimation) were trying to sell us on just how erudite and clever Freeza is. If he's so intelligent, then why didn't he rectify his former Achilles heel? And this segues into my next point, which is concerned with the dub.

3. Chris Ayres and Freeza as a whole. While not a bad actor by any means (as a fan of Linda Young, even I admit that Ayres could do a fantastic job in her stead given a proper script), his portrayal is far from ideal. FUNimation went out of its way to feed Chris as many overwrought and clearly-prepared sentences as possible, anticipating that he would deliver them with his usual swiftness. This isn't a flaw inherent to Revival of F, as it carries over from their efforts on Kai. Needless to say, Freeza's sesquipedalianism and brisk delivery does the character no favors. It's meant to convey a certain degree of genius and sophistication, yet his actions and violent outbursts of indignation signal something completely different: that he's a spoiled aristocratic brat. And that's all he comes off as, especially in this movie. The unrepentant mass murderer; the sick and twisted psychopath--these personality traits are almost wholly absent from both the script and Chris's performance. There are a few instances of sardonic, mocking wit as he addresses Gohan, but it seems he'd sooner lecture his minion on the definition of salubrious than wallow in the suffering he causes. It takes more than big words to signify brainpower, it also takes smart action. See: Palpatine/Darth Sidious from Star Wars.

Once Goku and Vegeta arrive, Freeza loses all control, and the threat is exiguous to the point of begging the question of precisely why I'm interested in the first place. If his defeat is a flagrantly foregone conclusion, then why am I bothering to invest myself? His pathetically obsequious interaction with Beerus is yet another knock at the tyrant's screen presence, reducing him to a plaything for the saiyans. Yes, he destroys the Earth in desperation (déjà vu once more, nothing new to see here), but even that small advance in menace is quickly erased with Whis's absurd time-travel power.

This is consistent with the manga's Freeza. He was always a tyrant whose veneer came down as soon as he was against the wall. Ayres' performance doesn't change that. While I enjoy the hell out of the fact that the endlessly charismatic Freeza is now one of the strongest mortals ever to exist, I don't think any points are missed in portraying his revival slightly toungue-in-cheek, especially within a 90-minute movie format.

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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by Lord Exor » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:09 am

Except Frieza has no precedent as being a subject of whimsy, and pushing the character into that mold to suit the needs of some action-packed burlesque show is ludicrous. I understand Toriyama needed an interim obstacle for his alleged three-part story, and being short on time in a 90 minute movie, culled one from his repertoire of existing enemies. In this fashion, he didn't have to expend any effort setting up the background or motivation of the character. That's all well and good, but it does the same disservice to Frieza that the Trunks arc and Fusion Reborn both did--resurrecting a character only to quickly dispose of said character is a waste of everyone's time.

There are plenty of ways this film could have been "Battle of the Gods 2" without the drawback of mistreating an iconic villain.
This is consistent with the manga's Freeza. He was always a tyrant whose veneer came down as soon as he was against the wall. Ayres' performance doesn't change that.
Except I never disputed that particular facet of the character, I instead criticized his posh inflection and overwritten script as exaggerated to the point of being a caricature. That this element was emphasized over the cruel sadistic overlord is a shame.
"My dear friend, how can I make this even more painful for you? I could crush your hands, rip off both of your ears, or maybe I'll just smash in your tiny little cranium. Ehehehehehehehe."
—Frieza

"Superb, really! A very rare power indeed! But I go on and on. I am Lord of the Universe, nothing can stop me! Nothing, see? I remain untouched. You, them, you crumble, you die, but I--I live on!"
—Frieza

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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by Kid Buu » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:33 am

Lord Slug was better.
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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:29 am

Kid Buu wrote:Lord Slug was better.
Why do you say that? Please actually provide some worthwhile conversation here.
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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by sintzu » Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:50 am

Getting to see Vegeta kick Freeza's sorry behind makes up for whatever the movie got wrong.
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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by coola » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:00 am

Like it's been said in "Mr. Toriyama returns to his roots" topic, days of dark and kinda serious plot of King Piccolo - Cell period are gone, Mr. Toriyama/Toei clearly returned to early DB/Dr. Slump days of comedy, where plots doesn't take itself seriously.
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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:04 am

A deus ex machine is when something intervenes that contradicts the internal logic of the story. Whis's time rewind is set up earlier in the film. It's an easy fix, but it is set up, unlike Superman: The Movie where it wasn't even hinted that he has that power and ruins any drama. Whis interjects to save Earth, not defeat Freeza.
instead criticized his posh inflection and overwritten script as exaggerated to the point of being a caricature. That this element was emphasized over the cruel sadistic overlord is a shame.
Freeza is posh. He sees himself as a gentleman and refined.

My biggest gripes are the lack of logic of the battle powers. Roshi is taking out guys left and right, but Piccolo has trouble against one of Freeza's minions who is only around Zarbon's level. That took me completely out of the movie.
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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:06 am

sintzu wrote:Getting to see Vegeta kick Freeza's sorry behind makes up for whatever the movie got wrong.
Not only that, what the movie lacks in plot more than makes up for it through action and humour. I knew what to expect with Resurrection 'F', a great blend of action and humour that also features the return of an iconic villain.

When it comes to Dragon Ball, I'm not looking for an engrossing story that captivates the viewer, I look for great characters with awesome interactions, some badass moments, fantastic fighting and humour sprinkled all over it. Resurrection 'F' gave me that and I absolutely loved it. It's my favourite Dragon Ball movie.

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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by NitroEX » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:50 am

Your first point was pretty much my initial reaction after seeing it recently. I absolutely hated that the tension was sapped from the film due to Whis and Beerus. As soon as that time travel ability was mentioned early on you just knew it was going to be used later. I was left feeling very annoyed throughout the final fight because I knew all of it was pointless in the end. We already have so many safety nets in this universe with Dragonballs and senzu beans, we really don't need more.

As for Ayres' performance, I actually really enjoyed it overall and thought it was one of the few redeeming qualities of the film. His lines are over the top for sure but I personally never found it to be out of character or something that took me out of the experience. Ayers definitely outshined both Sabat and Schemmel in this film but performance aside, I genuinely thought Freeza's story arc in RoF made him an oddly more compelling character than either of the two main leads. This is partly because of the performance and the fact that we spend so much time with him but it's also because he's a character who's been resurrected and killed so many times before that I can't help but see him as anything but a tragic figure now. It doesn't help that Goku and Vegeta are so OP going in that it essentially makes Freeza an underdog by default.

I just feel that this whole story could have been handled better so as to give us a reason to root for the main heroes because as it stands I didn't care about their tired rivalry or the fact that they had these new transformations, their characters feel aimless at this point and because of the constant safety nets I have less and less reason to care about either of them succeeding or even failing.

Also, one minor gripe I had with Freeza is that they kept him in his first form throughout most of the film. I thought this was a poor choice as I find it harder to take him seriously in that form. His more iconic final form would have made more sense since that's more of less the form he died in but that's just my opinion.

Overall the whole thing was poorly executed fanservice and a film I could have done without.

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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:07 am

Your first point was pretty much my initial reaction after seeing it recently. I absolutely hated that the tension was sapped from the film due to Whis and Beerus. As soon as that time travel ability was mentioned early on you just knew it was going to be used later. I was left feeling very annoyed throughout the final fight because I knew all of it was pointless in the end. We already have so many safety nets in this universe with Dragonballs and senzu beans, we really don't need more.
Well, it's good that there's a payoff to the set up, and at least the rewind only goes back so far. Was the lesson learned that Goku and Vegeta shouldn't spare their enemies or go to easy on them? If that's the case then the redo doesn't bother me as much than if it had just been an easy out.
I didn't care about their tired rivalry
Their rivalry is very different than it used to be. Vegeta was a lot more destructive because of it. It now feels like a much healthier rivalry where they push each other to get better without all the destructive animosity.
their characters feel aimless at this point
You don't consider training with Whis to become stronger an aim?
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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:29 pm

The movie was full of faults,a lot of em. But the pros far outway the cons which is why this is a good movie to me. entertaining to watch,you just have to take things with a grain of salt like piccolo struggling with a base form zarbon level character.
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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by Kid Buu » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:55 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Kid Buu wrote:Lord Slug was better.
Why do you say that? Please actually provide some worthwhile conversation here.
I compared it to Lord Slug since I generally see that viewed as the token "bad" DBZ film, and expressing that I would rather watch Lord Slug.

Here's my reasoning too:
-I like the city feel of the movie, I get tired of the wastelands Toriyama uses.
-I feel Blue SSJ is aesthetically unpleasing, but I think Lord Slug's SSJ transformation is well done.
-I like how teamwork is used to beat the big bad, instead of reducing the side characters to just a mook battle.
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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:59 pm

Chris Ayres immediately won being Freeza just by saying "All hail Vegeta, prince of no one."
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by precita » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:48 pm

I cannot understand people complaining about Freeza being cocky and making stupid decisions. He's ALWAYS been like that. Its what leads to his downfall time and time again.

Freeza thinks he's above everyone else but the moment someone equals or surpasses him in power he gets desperate and frustrated. We saw it happen the way he toyed around on Namek in his second and third forms with Vegeta/Krillin/Gohan instead of finishing them off quickly, then was surprised at how strong Gohan and Piccolo were. In his final form he also toys around with Goku until the Spirit Bomb hits him. Then once he becomes Super Saiyan, Freeza goes nuts.

Freeza rushing to Earth in a new form is the same thing he did as a cyborg in the early Cell saga. Revenge is always on Freeza's mind, that's why he always rushes back to exterminate those beneath him without preparing first.

Hell Freeza could have blown up the entire Earth from space (in both the Cell saga and in Return of F), rather than ever landing on the planet. But he's so cocky he wants to show his superiority to everyone.

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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:50 pm

precita wrote:I cannot understand people complaining about Freeza being cocky and making stupid decisions. He's ALWAYS been like that. Its what leads to his downfall time and time again.

Freeza thinks he's above everyone else but the moment someone equals or surpasses him in power he gets desperate and frustrated. We saw it happen the way he toyed around on Namek in his second and third forms with Vegeta/Krillin/Gohan instead of finishing them off quickly, then was surprised at how strong Gohan and Piccolo were. In his final form he also toys around with Goku until the Spirit Bomb hits him. Then once he becomes Super Saiyan, Freeza goes nuts.

Freeza rushing to Earth in a new form is the same thing he did as a cyborg in the early Cell saga. Revenge is always on Freeza's mind, that's why he always rushes back to exterminate those beneath him without preparing first.

Hell Freeza could have blown up the entire Earth from space (in both the Cell saga and in Return of F), rather than ever landing on the planet. But he's so cocky he wants to show his superiority to everyone.
You gotta admit it's kinda weird how he was like "well I trained for 4 months, I'm now stronger then majin buu!...I can't sense buu and never met him,but I just KNOW I'm above the man who killed him. But at the same time I just assume I'm below Beerus." I mean, plot convenience much?
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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:12 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
precita wrote:I cannot understand people complaining about Freeza being cocky and making stupid decisions. He's ALWAYS been like that. Its what leads to his downfall time and time again.

Freeza thinks he's above everyone else but the moment someone equals or surpasses him in power he gets desperate and frustrated. We saw it happen the way he toyed around on Namek in his second and third forms with Vegeta/Krillin/Gohan instead of finishing them off quickly, then was surprised at how strong Gohan and Piccolo were. In his final form he also toys around with Goku until the Spirit Bomb hits him. Then once he becomes Super Saiyan, Freeza goes nuts.

Freeza rushing to Earth in a new form is the same thing he did as a cyborg in the early Cell saga. Revenge is always on Freeza's mind, that's why he always rushes back to exterminate those beneath him without preparing first.

Hell Freeza could have blown up the entire Earth from space (in both the Cell saga and in Return of F), rather than ever landing on the planet. But he's so cocky he wants to show his superiority to everyone.
You gotta admit it's kinda weird how he was like "well I trained for 4 months, I'm now stronger then majin buu!...I can't sense buu and never met him,but I just KNOW I'm above the man who killed him. But at the same time I just assume I'm below Beerus." I mean, plot convenience much?
Freeza never said he was stronger than Buu. He achieved a new form and bolted to Earth thinking that is good enough, and Goku didn't exactly beat Buu the Spirit Bomb did, that probably played a factor. And of course Freeza having never trained before probably thought that achieving a new evolution meant that training must be over not to mention how impatient he is probably ultimately lead to the decision to go to Earth. As for Beerus he met him and probably knows Beerus' power is unprecedented and will never be matched no matter what he does. In the case of Goku. Freeza was creaming him before he went SS and thus Freeza knows that if he trains or whatnot he can rival Goku again but in Beerus' case if he can't land a single hit on him he knows he is no match like with Goku preSSG no matter how hard they train they'll know they'll never be strong as or er as Beerus.

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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by NitroEX » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:42 pm

ABED wrote:Was the lesson learned that Goku and Vegeta shouldn't spare their enemies or go to easy on them? If that's the case then the redo doesn't bother me as much than if it had just been an easy out.
IIRC the message (for Goku at least) was to not be overconfident but regardless of what it was, I don't think any of those messages are worth revolving a whole film around tbh. I would have just assumed Goku and Vegeta had learnt their lesson already from the events of the previous arcs. Freeza already came back once before because of Goku and Vegeta definitely regretted sparing Cell.

Even if it's absolutely necessary for a message like that to be included (let's say they plan to call back to it in a sequel) I'm sure there's got to be a better way to do it than Whis literally reversing time and giving them a verbal finger wagging. I know Dragonball is still supposed to be for kids but it really feels like they were talking down to their audience there.
ABED wrote:You don't consider training with Whis to become stronger an aim?
But where does it end? I feel like it's aimless because they're already stronger than practically 99% of the DB universe. Beerus and Whis are the only real threats but they seem to be on good terms with Earth's fighters now. It's not as if they're training to prepare for an incoming threat so it does feel kind of pointless to me.

Maybe they've got big plans for future movies but judging from what I've seen so far I don't have high hopes.

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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:42 pm

Define utter failure. Because looking to the facts and what matters €€€, is too far from that.
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Re: The utter failure that is Revival of F.

Post by Zephyr » Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:42 pm

Lord Exor wrote:2. Freeza makes the same mistake... again. In his haste to exact retribution, he fails to sufficiently master his full power, and ends up puttering out after a brief upper hand. Déjà vu anyone? I thought both Toriyama (and even FUNimation) were trying to sell us on just how erudite and clever Freeza is. If he's so intelligent, then why didn't he rectify his former Achilles heel? And this segues into my next point, which is concerned with the dub.
I think it worked well enough to demonstrate that Freeza was willing to learn from his mistakes, but not patient enough to succeed in doing so. He made an earnest effort to improve himself, unlike last time. The problem was that he's never dealt with getting an obscene growth in strength of his own sweat and toil; he's never had to temper the amount of excitement that he was probably feeling; so his emotional craving for revenge overpowered the common sense to master the new transformation. It's not his brightest move, but I'm fine with that. Sometimes people have to learn from one mistake at a time, but Freeza unfortunately is deprived of the opportunity to rectify them due to his own dysfunctional behavior. I really like that about him.
Lord Exor wrote:Yes, he destroys the Earth in desperation (déjà vu once more, nothing new to see here), but even that small advance in menace is quickly erased with Whis's absurd time-travel power.
I honestly thought it was nice that he actually managed to destroy the planet immediately, rather than it taking "five minutes".
Kid Buu wrote:the token "bad" DBZ film
No way, man. That's Bio Broly.
Kid Buu wrote:-I like how teamwork is used to beat the big bad, instead of reducing the side characters to just a mook battle.
To be fair, Freeza was sort of defeated by teamwork between Goku and Whis. :P
NitroEX wrote:But where does it end? I feel like it's aimless because they're already stronger than practically 99% of the DB universe. Beerus and Whis are the only real threats but they seem to be on good terms with Earth's fighters now. It's not as if they're training to prepare for an incoming threat so it does feel kind of pointless to me.
With Goku and Vegeta, they could be stronger than 100% of every other possible being in existence, and they would probably still want to become stronger. That's just who they are. The fact that they've introduced multiple universes helps add further purpose to this, the same way adding in space helped add to that once Goku became the strongest fighter on the planet.

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