Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by The Patrolman » Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:42 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:While his ultimate sacrifice is poignant, and the idea of a Vegeta getting fed up with life on earth is good on paper... yeah, I agree with FoolsGil. For me it's the point I throw up my hands and go, "This guy is the biggest whiner and most useless load the series has ever produced!" Once again, Vegeta screws everyone over and ruins countless lives for his own selfish desires. And, hey, I'm all for character conflict. I'm all for inner turmoil. But I cannot find anything even remotely sympathetic about a guy whose childish temper tantrum is to murder hundreds of people and let an eldritch abomination take over the world just so he can pick a fight with Goku. And, by the way, I find nothing special, exciting, or even remotely interesting about their rematch. And that's even before it turns out that Goku was just screwing around. But you know Vegeta's in a bad place where I can honestly say Chaozu is more useful than him. Because while Chaozu is left at home contributing nothing, he's at least not actively making things worse!

Majin Vegeta is the moment Vegeta definitively proves he's a more dangerous threat to the earth than the villains are. I can't stand it, and I can't stand him.
I really really want to agree with you but I cant. Vegeta at this point is suffering a mid life crisis. Realising that Goku is still stronger than him he went into panic mode and was literally desparate to do this. Cell Saga Vegeta would have never done this but this a more broken Vegeta. Even he said that hated the fact that he had to do this. Goku even said that this is something that Vegeta would have never ever done and here comes the main reason Majin Vegeta works so well. "I was the perfect warrior; Cold & ruthless. I live by my strength alone. Uninhibited by foolish emotion! But slowly...over the years...I became one of you. My quest for greatless giving way to this life of mediocrity. I awake one day to find that I had settled down; formed a family." This a fallen warrior who is trying to reclaim the shell of his former self. Onto the Majin Buu fight, Vegeta realises his selfish ways to the point where he doesnt even give a fuck that he doesnt get to keep his body. He is literally accepting death because he realises all the mistakes he has done and he realises he was a dick and the only way to repay all of his sins was the sacrifice. You're right Chaozu added nothing to the story at all neither did his sacrifice.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by B » Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:01 pm

I'm not sure you can have it both ways, Patrolman. Either Vegeta is a sympathetic figure because he never got to be stronger than Goku and surrendered his soul to gain his competitive edge back(dear lord, does anybody think this?), or he's a self-centered, whining brat who realizes too late what the right thing to do is. Really, that's the clincher. Vegeta's isn't cowardly making polite, empty gestures to get into Heaven. He's actually changed(or, at least willing to try to change, and perhaps that is enough as far as Shenlong is concerned, and why he was deemed "good" enough to be wished back to life?). It's part of why I like the way the Kanzenban ends; it's still toying with your perception of Vegeta and doesn't paint him in a black-and-white "time to be a good guy now!" light. Nobody changes that easily.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Kuririn Fan » Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:16 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Wow, i didn't know that my Master hates Vegeta :O

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Fionordequester » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:53 pm

B wrote:I'm not sure you can have it both ways, Patrolman. Either Vegeta is a sympathetic figure because he never got to be stronger than Goku and surrendered his soul to gain his competitive edge back(dear lord, does anybody think this?), or he's a self-centered, whining brat who realizes too late what the right thing to do is. Really, that's the clincher. Vegeta's isn't cowardly making polite, empty gestures to get into Heaven. He's actually changed(or, at least willing to try to change, and perhaps that is enough as far as Shenlong is concerned, and why he was deemed "good" enough to be wished back to life?). It's part of why I like the way the Kanzenban ends; it's still toying with your perception of Vegeta and doesn't paint him in a black-and-white "time to be a good guy now!" light. Nobody changes that easily.
Actually, you CAN have it both ways, and I hope everyone comes to realize that with people in general. For example, the drunkard who's hit rock bottom, and whose marriage has failed and all that because he let his drinking get out of control. Now, obviously I know that that wasn't the right thing to do, and I know that he definitely needs to turn his life around, but that doesn't mean I can't sympathize with how he got there.

For example, the guy could have had an abusive, alcoholic dad, who lied about the fact that he was still drinking. And then by the time said person realizes how harmful alcoholism was, he's already addicted, and he's already met the woman of his dreams. Plus, work starts to get challenging, and it turns out your kid was born autistic, and man, abstinence seems like it's a really hard thing to do...

And you get the general idea from there. Now, back to the drunkard, it's still his fault that his marriage failed, and I'm still going to tell him "dude, you need to get into an Anonymous program, NOW!". But that does NOT mean that I can't sympathize with how hard life got for him, now does it? I just don't believe you can look at people as just one thing, and still claim that you fully understand them. People are too dynamic and complicated for that. That's part of what makes all of us so wonderful.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:12 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:He should have stayed dead.
Then we wouldn't get Vegeta admitting Goku is better than him, which was the perfect conclusion for his character arc.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Doctor. » Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:50 pm

I love it. It's whiny, bitchy, self-centered Vegeta at his best, causing trouble to everyone around him to fulfill his own selfish desires. His character development during and after this part of his life was great.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Wizard Sesame » Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:43 pm

I would have enjoyed it more if he was legitimately taken over, rather than giving in. If he was taken over due to the lingering evil in his heart, which grew because of his desperate desire to fight Goku, but then was able to summon the strength to defeat Babidi's magic due to realizing that Buu may be a threat to Bulma and Trunks, it would have made for a good story. As it is now, however, it just seems like he's a childish punk that had a temper tantrum.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Doctor. » Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:57 pm

Wizard Sesame wrote:As it is now, however, it just seems like he's a childish punk that had a temper tantrum.
That's what makes it a good story. It's a legitimate character flaw that took over him and he (eventually) tried to fight back.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:12 pm

Doctor. wrote:I love it. It's whiny, bitchy, self-centered Vegeta at his best, causing trouble to everyone around him to fulfill his own selfish desires. His character development during and after this part of his life was great.
If it wasn't for the great character development that Vegeta went through during his Majin phase, I'd say that Majin Vegeta would be no better than Android/Cell arc Vegeta, who was equally whiny, bitchy, self-centred and caused way more problems than solved.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:27 pm

Android/Cell Vegeta is a bit easier to overlook for the way he acts since he's not really there to help the good guys. He's looking for a fight and all this other stuff is just a warm up for his inevitable battle with Goku. He's only a "good guys" by virtue of not being interested in murdering (most) of the good guys and wanting to kill the bad guys.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by SaiyanZ » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:50 am

In terms of what it meant for his character, I didn't like it during the heat of the moment. Vegeta at that point in the series wasn't really one of my favorite characters and him going Majin didn't do anything to make me like him more. I appreciated him for sure though since he brought that ruthless side to main cast. However, after he KO's Goku and he slowly becomes a better person, thats when he ultimately became my 2nd fav in the series overall.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Vynak » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:43 pm

As someone else has said, this was a crossroads for Vegeta. Whether you like the character or not, it was definitely the most well done villain turned good transformation done in the show. We’ve had quite a few and most of them were lazy (Piccolo in particular could have been done way better IMO). Vegeta’s was realistic and happened gradually over the course of the series. If you look at things from Vegeta’s perspective, the majin arc makes sense. He’d been basically going through a mid life crisis since the Cell saga. The majin arc highlights his internal struggle between the (undesired) changes he was going through (family ties/relaxed earth life) and his obsession with surpassing Goku/being the strongest/reclaiming his damaged pride. This was really the first time (arguably in his life) he’s ever experienced any sort of emotional ties so it’s not surprising that he would view it as a weakness. Majin Vegeta was a last ditch effort to reclaim how he used to be by severing those ties. I think it was necessary for him to ultimately make his choice and rearrange his priorities.

However, the fight itself could have been done a bit better. Mostly addressing the huge plothole with Goku being able to go SS3 but choosing not to. But overall I think his sacrifice was very well done and a great conclusion to his character arc.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:49 pm

I never can quite swallow the "mid-life crisis" comparison. That just comes off as so weird to me. Now maybe I've lived a sheltered existence. Maybe I come from an odd part of the world. But when I think of mid-life crisis, I think of dudes buying a sports car, getting hair plugs, taking unnecessary risks. If we're going to be less sympathetic, maybe trading in his wife for some young, buxom ne'er-do-well. However, we can relate because everyone gets old, everyone feels like they've missed out on things, everyone feels regret and fear. So people engaging in somewhat erratic behavior is understandable. I do not, however, associate "mid-life crisis" with "slaughtering hundreds of people," and I find it extremely odd that so many other people seem to equate the two things. Has anyone's dad ever gone on a killing spree because he's upset at the way his life has turned out? And if so, did you then say, "Oh, he's just going through a mid-life crisis, but he felt really bad afterwards, and it ultimately turned him into a better person," as a justification?
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Doctor. » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:54 pm

No, but this is Dragon Ball we're talking about. And this is Vegeta we're talking about, someone who murdered people for fun not too long ago without any thought about any possible repercussion. When some of the Gods in the universe later on in the arc basically say "this individual is now good", we're supposed to believe that he did turn into a better person and redeemed himself in the DB universe.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:19 pm

It's the best he's ever been since the Saiyan Saga. Just perfect... perfect set-up to conclude a character arc.

But fucking Goku ruined it... with his SSJ3 bullshit. :problem:
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by baneofdemon22 » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:38 pm

I love Majin Vegeta! Thankfully the Funimation dub version is great because it's what's readily available on youtube, so I can watch it over and over again. And I do! I've listened to his speeches an insane amount of times, and I'm still not bored of them! He's such a pitiful jerk in those scenes, but I can't help but feel for him. The guy really is in such a poor state of mind, and it's sad to witness his struggle to get over his massive ego. To me, it seemed like a realistic development for Vegeta. He's one of the few characters that I actually buy the transition from evil to good. Maybe it's because he didn't have much dimension to his character initially, so that's why it was easily to accept...kind of like the Grinch who stole Christmas. I'm going to be positive and give Toriyama more credit!

It's a really tough thing for a writer to pull off. Good to evil transitions are much easier to write because everyone has inclinations towards evil, and we all know how easy it is to fall from grace. It's extremely difficult for people to turn away from temptations when things seem to be really going well for you. Vegeta's transition wasn't a simple case of receiving kindness for the first time in his life and changing. He needed to be broken down consistently to get over his pride. Heck, he only really started to accept his flaws when he fought with Goku against Kid Boo, and he is still wrestling with them in the new material. I just think it was really well done.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:57 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:It's the best he's ever been since the Saiyan Saga. Just perfect... perfect set-up to conclude a character arc.

But fucking Goku ruined it... with his SSJ3 bullshit. :problem:
Actually, if it wasn't for SSJ3, Vegeta would never gotten his epiphany when Goku fought Kid Boo, we wouldn't have got the fantastic "Goku is No.1" speech, and his character arc would have been left unconcluded. Whether you like it or not, Vegeta finally coming to terms with why Goku was always seemingly one step ahead and accepting him as his superior was an immensely significant moment in his character arc. It was at that moment when Vegeta's resentment, bitterness and outright hatred towards Goku for always seemingly being a step ahead of him turn into admiration and respect.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:43 pm

And, hey, I'm all for character conflict. I'm all for inner turmoil. But I cannot find anything even remotely sympathetic about a guy whose childish temper tantrum is to murder hundreds of people and let an eldritch abomination take over the world just so he can pick a fight with Goku. And, by the way, I find nothing special, exciting, or even remotely interesting about their rematch. And that's even before it turns out that Goku was just screwing around. But you know Vegeta's in a bad place where I can honestly say Chaozu is more useful than him. Because while Chaozu is left at home contributing nothing, he's at least not actively making things worse!
It really doesn't matter to me if he is an asshole and reprehensible, as long as he's interesting. In this moment he most definitely is. What I like about the moment is Vegeta is such an evil bastard that he made quite a few strides and improved that I think him desperately trying to convince himself that he wants to be what he used to be felt real and natural. In the end, he's lying to himself. Sure, he's still evil, but he does have people who matter to him a great deal. So, no, I do also don't see it as a mid-life crisis, but I do feel it is an interesting and natural part of his progression.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:59 pm

I don't necessarily mind if a character is a reprehensible asshole either. I love Vegeta in the Freeza arc. But there at least he's useful. It makes sense to join forces with him. He's not whiny and annoying. Here he's basically an emo, mass-murdering version of every character Chris Farley played in his movies: he's this incompetent bumbler who does more to thwart the heroes than the villains do, and yet the heroes are all, "Ehhhhhhhhhhh... Try not to do that again, please. It upsets my allergies."
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by andrewtuell1991 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:37 am

He's nothing more than a plot device to wake up the main villain of the arc. That's all he and the 2nd fight with Goku are, which is why the fight is thankfully so short in the manga.

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