Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:21 am

BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Very different opinions here, and they have me really considering mine. I like the concept, but the execution really does leave Toriyama looking as if he skipped a step in his story and Vegeta looking like a plot device.

I've always had a problem with Toriyama's telling us to take his word for Vegeta's settling down. We see very small bits and pieces of it; an episode of his trying to figure out how to relate Trunks, his being more relaxed at the 28th tournament. But its just too fast for me. He tells us he eventually enjoyed the family life, but we haven't seen him struggle with it, we haven't seen him tell himself that for all the embarrassment it will bring him that this is the right thing to do, and make an inevitably clumsy effort. You need something like Episode 2 of Super, at the very least, before you can take Vegeta down the violent reactionary path like that. The whole thing is played far too seriously to just drop on us. His desperation to fight Goku for the last time in his mortal life is fine trigger, but triggers need something to ignite.

And Goku. Wow, the things that ordeal brought out in Goku. The disbelieving betrayal. Not an emotion you associate with him. Too bad Goku and Vegeta's relationship is astoundingly undercooked. Had Piccolo let himself go under- not to stir that old hypothetical- it would have been spot-on. But Vegeta? What had Vegeta done to earn Goku's confidence?
This is a problem a lot of the so-called "character development" has in the series: its really under developed. Now, Piccolo and Gohan bonding is fixed with the Z anime actually showing us how they train and interact more where as the manga just skips over most of this along with Kai. Piccolo's sacrifice isn't earned at aaaaaalllllll. But like I said, at least the Z version of the anime expanded things to make it a bit easier to swallow.

Vegeta, sadly, never got this treatment anywhere and all we have is characters saying he cares without showing anything to prove the point. You also make a good point for why Majin Piccolo would've worked a lot better as an adversary than Vegeta. Piccolo and Goku actually respect one another as do Piccolo and Gohan so him going bad again would've meant something. With Vegeta, its just same old same old with a coat of barely existing paint telling us "No guys! He's totally not super evil anymore! Even though he's done exactly jack and shit to prove this!".
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Avery » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:42 am

^^ Yeah, and all of that is a result of Toriyama not wanting to include scenes that "move people" or "don't move the plot forward". That's one of the reasons why I think he is not really good at writing serious stories. I was upset when I found out many of the beautifully done scenes were anime-only.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by ABED » Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:15 am

I get what you guys are saying, but I don't have a problem with them not showing Vegeta slipping into domesticity. It would be one thing if Vegeta became this great humanitarian, but he's not. He's still an asshole, just not homicidal until he has the impetus (i.e., Goku in the living world for a day). We've seen hints of it over time already. He wasn't as homicidal after the Freeza arc, Bulma felt safe enought to sleep with the guy and have his child, he went bonkers after Cell murdered Trunks, and he lost the will to fight after Goku died. In the 7 years since then, he lived at Capsule Corp., so it's not like it didn't come out of nowhere. It's different than Piccolo who did a complete 180.
the pitiful rematch we got certainly didn't.
I disagree, I don't think it was pitiful, it was hard hitting, fast paced, and dramatic.
I like his development but it often seems inconsistent. Like saying he'll never fight again after the Cell Games, but showing no signs of retirement when we see him again.
He was retired. He still trained, but training in solitude isn't fighting, and when he came out of retirement, it was because the reason for it was back, albeit temporarily. Maybe i'm iffy on the details, but that's how i remember it. I could be wrong and he was willing to enter the tournament when he heard Gohan was entering.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by SaiyanZ » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:33 am

I actually think their 2nd fight was better as well
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:06 pm

ABED wrote:
I like his development but it often seems inconsistent. Like saying he'll never fight again after the Cell Games, but showing no signs of retirement when we see him again.
He was retired. He still trained, but training in solitude isn't fighting, and when he came out of retirement, it was because the reason for it was back, albeit temporarily. Maybe i'm iffy on the details, but that's how i remember it. I could be wrong and he was willing to enter the tournament when he heard Gohan was entering.
Wasn't he already planning on entering to fight Gohan, even before he knew Goku was entering? Or am I misremembering?

Either way, I like to pretend that once Vegeta had his meltdown and finally got home, he thought to himself, "wait, what am I gonna do now?" :lol:
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:25 pm

Kid Buu wrote:
ABED wrote:
I like his development but it often seems inconsistent. Like saying he'll never fight again after the Cell Games, but showing no signs of retirement when we see him again.
He was retired. He still trained, but training in solitude isn't fighting, and when he came out of retirement, it was because the reason for it was back, albeit temporarily. Maybe i'm iffy on the details, but that's how i remember it. I could be wrong and he was willing to enter the tournament when he heard Gohan was entering.
Wasn't he already planning on entering to fight Gohan, even before he knew Goku was entering? Or am I misremembering?

Either way, I like to pretend that once Vegeta had his meltdown and finally got home, he thought to himself, "wait, what am I gonna do now?" :lol:
I think Trunks reaching training-appropriate age got him back in the game.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by ABED » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:35 pm

It wouldn't be the first time someone retired and then came back. Terry Funk did it a lot.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:10 pm

What do you think of his comment in the revised ending of the manga, despite admitting Goku was #1 in the Buu arc?
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by DanielSSJ » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:51 am

In my opinion, Androids/Cell Arc Vegeta is Vegeta at his worst. Aside from his fight with 19, he's more of a hinderance than anything else. Mind you, almost everyone seems to have taken a beating from the idiot stick in this arc. Freeza Arc Vegeta may be an evil asshole, but at least he's not constantly f*cking over everyone. Majin Vegeta is more of the same as Android/Cell Vegeta, but he gets better after he's brought back to fight Boo. Seeing him partner up with Goku is great, and their interactions together really sell them as being kind-of-but-not-really friends. Three scenes that come to mind are Vegeta's "Goku is Number 1" speech, Goku and Vegeta arguing over whose wife should be sexually harassed by the old Kaioshin, and Vegeta and Goku giving each other thumbs ups after Boo is beaten. I'm kind of annoyed that BoG, RF, and Dragon Ball Super have gone backwards with Vegeta's "I must beat Kakarotto!" complex.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by precita » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:30 am

One thing I find funny about this is Vegeta never seemed under Babidi's spell so he killed those people on his own choice. When he's ordered to kill the Supreme Kai he refuses.

Likewise once Buu is hatched Vegeta immediately realizes he's better off stopping him then continuing to fight with Goku. His speech and hugging Trunks, all while still having the "M" on his forehead...really makes it seem like he was never under Babidi's spell in the first place.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by TKA » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:54 am

BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:"What do you mean you tried to be a family man, Vegeta? You blew up dozens of people to coerce me into fighting you!" I do not think we had the chance to "buy" the reformed Vegeta before Toriyama shattered it with the narrative baseball bat.
I disagree. We'd seen the beginnings of Vegeta's change when Cell shot Trunks. Vegeta went in guns blazing, knowing he was weaker than Cell in an attempt to avenge his son's death. That's a profound change in the character that was Emperor Kuzco incarnate ("it's all about me"). It's not unreasonable to think that 7 years raising that same kid could change him further. The early stages of the Buu arc even have Vegeta interacting with the rest of the cast without incident and everyone was treating him like a part of the gang.

The change in him was shown well before his Majin form took over. If you were expecting scenes of Vegeta mowing the lawn in dad clothes, you're thinking of the wrong character.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Michsi » Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:46 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
precita wrote:Goku Vs. Majin Vegeta was the rematch we all wanted since the Saiyan saga.
I hear people say this a lot, but I never had any yearning desire for a rematch between them. Their first fight was great and could never really be topped anyway, and the pitiful rematch we got certainly didn't.
To be honest, I think it was bound to happen and in a way it's good that it did. Unlike every other enemy turned friend in the series Vegeta held on to his animosity towards Goku for far longer and with a lot more vehemence . It would have been weird to have all that grudge either wither away or continue on endlessly with no resolution. At least it allowed the character to move on and "mature" in a way. (he still makes some bad, ego-induced decisions later, but still....)
Having said that, the way it happened, the way it was handled , how it really does resemble a temper tantrum and how it really seemed pointless and far less meaningful once Goku showed SSJ3 .....yeah, didn't really like it. I guess my biggest gripe with the whole thing is that I felt Vegeta's willing betrayal deserved a bigger backlash from the rest of the characters, sacrifice or not.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:01 am

Having said that, the way it happened, the way it was handled , how it really does resemble a temper tantrum and how it really seemed pointless.
How would you have liked to seen it handled? He's a bad guy, so giving them petty reasons for their actions is a great idea. It makes them unlikable.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Michsi » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:23 pm

ABED wrote:
Having said that, the way it happened, the way it was handled , how it really does resemble a temper tantrum and how it really seemed pointless.
How would you have liked to seen it handled? He's a bad guy, so giving them petty reasons for their actions is a great idea. It makes them unlikable.
"Bad guy" doesn't have to be mean "unlikable character". As many pointed out, Vegeta was at his most interesting during the Namek arc and he was a full fledged bad guy then. I could go on and list a few ways how the whole rematch idea could have happened, but I don't see the point. Bottom line is that I'm not a fan of what and how it actually happened in the story. I guess a lot of it has to do with him eventually returning, making his so called big moment lose a great deal of emotional significance.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by ABED » Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:47 pm

"Bad guy" doesn't have to be mean "unlikable character".
It doesn't exclude it either. Unfortunately, lots of people's ideas of writing a great bad guy is to make them more interesting or almost more sympathetic than the good guy
making his so called big moment lose a great deal of emotional significance.
the fact that he failed doesn't make it any less meaningful for his character. Him winning isn't the point, it's why he's doing it that's important. I would argue that even after that moment, there's still more to go with his development. HIm getting over his issues with Goku is the biggest step.
As many pointed out, Vegeta was at his most interesting during the Namek arc
That's not a fact. What about his so called "temper tantrum" wasn't interesting?
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Michsi » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:16 pm

ABED wrote: It doesn't exclude it either. Unfortunately, lots of people's ideas of writing a great bad guy is to make them more interesting or almost more sympathetic than the good guy
I don't see why it's unfortunately. The "bad guy" is still a character and and having a character be interesting, regardless of what his role is in the story, is generally seen as a good thing. Evil for the sake of evil just seems lazy to me.
the fact that he failed doesn't make it any less meaningful for his character. Him winning isn't the point, it's why he's doing it that's important. I would argue that even after that moment, there's still more to go with his development. HIm getting over his issues with Goku is the biggest step.
It's not him not winning that makes is less meaningful, it's him being brought back to the story after his great dramatic sacrifice. That was what I meant.

That's not a fact. What about his so called "temper tantrum" wasn't interesting?
No, it's not a fact, but it's an opinion many share. Temper tantrum are preceived as childich and I prefer cunning characters over childish characters....usually....

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by voltlunok » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:53 pm

ABED wrote: That's not a fact. What about his so called "temper tantrum" wasn't interesting?
Because its been done before. Vegeta throws temper tantrums often, he is driven by his ego and pride to do incredibly stupid things. To play a little of both sides, I liked the idea that Vegeta achieved super saiyan by dropping his ego and pride for just a second, its a common and very interesting thing about him. He often makes great leaps when he lets his pride go. However in the case of Majin Vegeta, its just his pride causing him to make a truly stupid decision, a decision that I really think should have slapped him a lot harder. But it doesn't, its just treated like another one of Vegeta's trademark temper tantrum that ultimately equates to nothing...Vegeta doesn't learn anything from what arguably is his greatest mistake.

I honestly believe during his majin rampage, Vegeta should have accidentally killed Bulma and I honestly believe in the hands of any other writer, thats what would have happened. It would snap him out of his ego fueled rampage and open his eyes to the fact that his pride is his most self destructive and self impeding trait. I think Vegeta's sacrifice should have also been permanent, sure do the return for a day thing, have the moment with Goku about their race, unleash Vegetto and all that but don't let him revive. Don't give Vegeta a free pass, don't sweep all the stuff he did as Majin Vegeta under the rug and pretend it didn't happen, because that takes the teeth from the Majin Vegeta arc out, the drama is there, the chance for true character growth is there, but its wasted by the fact that the buu saga as a whole just forgets that this all happened.

Not only that but the question for all this arises too "Why?" Why is Vegeta going through all of this? Why does he wanna throw everything aside for the sake of his ego? What does he gain from this rampage and fighting Goku? He has everything he could ever want with Bulma and even a son to pass his knowledge down to. But nope, his need to be better then Kakarot is more important! This is also one of the big things about Vegeta's character I kinda don't like...it all focuses and revolves around his rivalry with Goku and in some ways...that is his whole character and the Majin Vegeta arc amplifies this notion to such eye rolling degrees. Like I said before, I agree with Kaioshin, Vegeta's need to be the better is meaningless cause without Goku, he's nothing.

Ultimately to answer the question of what makes the Majin Vegeta stuff so uninteresting, is the fact that the series treats it as uninteresting. Its swept under the rug and never brought up again. The whole of the arc feels POINTLESS because it has no repercussions for the parties involved. Nothing comes from this arc outside of a couple good lines and a mediocre fight. The Majin Vegeta stuff is cool the first time through the series, when you don't know its just gonna be ignored. But the second time...its boring. Cause it doesn't do anything. Its uninteresting because it flat out doesn't accomplish anything to advance Vegeta's character, Goku's character or even Trunks' character. Its like a speed bump, ya feel it for a second when ya go over it but then forget its ever there as you leave it behind.
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