End of Dragon Ball

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Super Sonic
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End of Dragon Ball

Post by Super Sonic » Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:03 am

Although I love DBZ, after watching the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai saga again, I realize that DB's ending was pretty good and didn't have to continue. It was dramatic and tied things up. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

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Post by Adamant » Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:29 am

Piccolo was still a threat.

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Post by Jakez04 » Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:28 pm

Why stop it so early when it was a best seller make another part and hope it makes you more money. ^_^
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Post by SonGohan-san » Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:20 pm

You make a good point, here. The thing that I like so much about Dragon Ball as opposed to DBZ (epecially later DBZ) was the adventure aspect of it. I know I'm in the minority on this probably, but I much prefer the old style DB/ early DBZ animation over the late DBZ (and GT) styles. I don't care how dated it looks, the early animation is just so damned beautiful and seemingly has a timeless feel to it.
To actually answer your question on how I feel:
The thing about ending it after the 23rd TB is that Goku is still just a mysterious boy with an amazing ability to persevere (which is neat, b/c that's half of what makes him so charming). With the beginning of DBZ, this whole premise is blown out of the water b/c instead of him having this seemingly divine ability, it's just his genes. (Of course, later in DBZ we see that he was still exceptional the entire time, but it's a bit different.) Ultimately, I'd do the no-brainer and side with the 99.99999% of fans by saying, I'm glad it continued.
I've said it before, but I think that the Cell ending was the best. But I do think the 23rd TB was also a good spot to end it. The Buu saga just felt like one big DBZ movie to me, which isn't so good.

A bit off topic here (I'm a bit bored so I'll just keep thinking out loud here): Are there any others here that absolutely love the training era between Raditz and Vegita? Though they are training (and many seem to find this material boring compared to the fights), it's one of the longest peaceful eras of the entire DB series. Gohan exploring the island, meeting the robot, befriending the sabertooth and the dinosaur and later the orphans. Then you have Goku with Princess Snake, Yamucha playing baseball, the whole Ten/Lunch thing. It's just a really peaceful viewing experience, I think. And even though a lot of it was filler, I think it's all perfect.

Anyways, sorry for creating a huge rift in the flow of the conversation, I had just been watching these episodes lately, and I forgot how fun they were.

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Post by Jerseymilk » Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:58 pm

You're not the only one that loves those episodes in between Raditz and Vegita. They're some of my most favourites! I really love the first episode of all with Gohan lost in the woods too. :) And the Princess Snake episode I think is still one of the funniest ones ever, along with that darn driving school episode! :D I just love the Saiyajin saga! I really think it stays so close to DB in it's atmosphere and "the old gang" is there Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, Yamucha, even Yajirobe plus, plenty of screen time of my little Gohan. :wink: And I also like DB and early DBZ animation style more than later Buu saga DBZ.

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Post by Dayspring » Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:30 pm

I personally would have ended it after Trunks killed Cell. There was some minor lack of closure after the 23rd TB since Piccolo+Goku were so equally matched and Piccolo was still evil. After the Namek saga, when Goku goes SSJ, there's a HUGE lack of closure as the strongest person after Goku is Vegeta, who was still evil (what if he blew up the world? The only reason he didn't was because he was waiting for Goku) and everybody wants to know more about SSJ.

Since Freeza was the strongest in the universe, it made sense to make only his dad stronger than him (same family). They get killed off and we're introduced to a plausable list of baddies all stronger than the strongest baddies in all the universe. We're exposed to SSJ2 and SSJ3 (or at least they'd be considered that had it not been for the Boo saga) and then the PERFECT combattant who ends up being stronger than even all that. Gohan, because of his half-human side, ends up achieving a final, superior SSJ stage unique to only him (and possibly attainable by Trunks, but not needed) in order to defeat Cell. Goku explains how he's happy being dead and doesn't need to come back. Gohan, like Toriyama wanted, is the protector of Earth.

Then the Boo fiasco comes along? BAH!
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Post by Zackarotto » Sat Mar 27, 2004 10:17 pm

Cell might have been my favorite major villain, but there was too many good times in the Buu saga to just give it up. Personally, I wouldn't give up any saga. I'd change things, sure, but there is NO WAY I'd give up the Buu saga.

For the comments about between Raditz and Vegeta: I hated those things. Yes, perhaps some great things occurred there, but as for most of the things you mentioned? I loathe them.

...Radditz rules.

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Post by laserkid » Sun Mar 28, 2004 1:00 am

I'd also keep all of the sagas the Buu saga just had some nice stuff about adult Gohan and it saw the changing of Vegeta in full, it just really feels necessary to the story. If I changed anything it'd be the stupid power level concept.

At any rate yeah DBs got a much more mystical feeling to it (and thats what attracted me to the series I was a DB fan before I was a Z fan), and I do like it better than Z, but Z's got its own charm too.
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Post by Jerseymilk » Sun Mar 28, 2004 5:49 am

Zackarotto wrote:Cell might have been my favorite major villain, but there was too many good times in the Buu saga to just give it up. Personally, I wouldn't give up any saga. I'd change things, sure, but there is NO WAY I'd give up the Buu saga.

For the comments about between Raditz and Vegeta: I hated those things. Yes, perhaps some great things occurred there, but as for most of the things you mentioned? I loathe them.

...Radditz rules.
Zacko, you only loathe them because there isn't enough violence and bloodshed, you sicko you! :D

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Post by Adamant » Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:27 am

Since Freeza's supposed to be the strongest in the universe, shouldn't like all the villains in the Buu saga (excluding Buu, and perhaps Dabura) be way weaker than him? It's not like the Majin powerup multiplies your power by a million.

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Post by Neon Z » Sun Mar 28, 2004 8:21 am

Hum... The sayans were supposed to be the strongests in the universe... but Freeza was stronger than them. Also Dabura comes from another dimension, as does Kaioshin and Kibito. And it's been a long while since Freza's Saga, so people likew Puipui could have gotten stronger than he was.

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Post by Zackarotto » Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:47 am

SonGohan-san wrote:Gohan exploring the island, meeting the robot, befriending the sabertooth and the dinosaur and later the orphans. Then you have Goku with Princess Snake, Yamucha playing baseball, the whole Ten/Lunch thing.
Don't get me wrong, I love filler, but the majority of those were just annoying... the majority.

And Jerseymilk, if I only loved the bloodshed, I would have never gotten into the dubbed version, would I? I guess there are just certain moments that give me a rush, and a great deal of these don't have any violence at all.

To post on-topic, I'll just say that a lot of those rushes come from the Buu saga. I would never get rid of it. NEVER EVER.

Freeza was not the strongest in the universe. But you know how freaking far he'd have to travel to find someone stronger? Let's just say you could list all the characters stronger than him in one paragraph. Last time I checked, that's not very many when you're looking at the entire universe, with billions of people on single planets.

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Post by Jerseymilk » Sun Mar 28, 2004 11:55 am

Hey there's a good spin-off! Join Freeza as he searches the galaxies on a neverending search to see if there is anyone stronger. And like the universe, this series will be infinite! :D

Zacko: I just wanted to mention that I was joking eh, about the "bloodshed" comment. You didn't have to explain yourself or anything. 8)

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Post by Zackarotto » Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:03 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:Hey there's a good spin-off! Join Freeza as he searches the galaxies on a neverending search to see if there is anyone stronger. And like the universe, this series will be infinite! :D

Zacko: I just wanted to mention that I was joking eh, about the "bloodshed" comment. You didn't have to explain yourself or anything. 8)
It wouldn't be infinite, because he'd eventually find somebody and get his killed. Heh... That would actually sound pretty cool if it didn't get the same dub Freeza... imagine "Frieza" being the main character. *shudder*

I think the emoticon explained that for you, but at least it opened the way for me to get to my next point...

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Post by Jerseymilk » Sun Mar 28, 2004 12:08 pm

I just wanted to make sure you knew is all. Actual, that Freeza program could be like some kind of wrestling event. Like the next reality T.V. show. Stupid viewers from all over the universe actually enter to fight Freeza one on one and we get to watch them get smothered, but the show will be like WWF-style cage fighting and Freeza has to wear tight spandex leotards! :mrgreen:

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Post by SonGohan-san » Sun Mar 28, 2004 5:01 pm

I always assumed Freeza was stronger than Pui Pui and Yakon or whatever their names were. Same with Supopobitchie or whatever his name was. It seems to me that some people assume that Videl and every character in the Buu saga is automatically stronger than Freeza, which I find funny. The only characters outside the Z Senshi to be stronger than Freeza during the Buu saga were Kaioushin (a God existing outside of Freeza's galaxy), possibly Kibito and the Old Kaioushin, Buu (creation that presumeably was the same), and Dabura (who was from another dimension). So, despite the fact that the Buu arc creates horrible, horrible plotholes/inconsistencies, I don't think this (regarding Freeza being the strongest) can be considered one of them.
The thing about the Sayians supposedly being the strongest doesn't really bother me b/c it was all done for hype anyways.
Last edited by SonGohan-san on Sun Mar 28, 2004 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Super Sonic » Sun Mar 28, 2004 5:26 pm

Another thing that I like about DB and DBZ up to the Frieza saga was that the Dragon Balls were an actual big plot point. Other than the Budokai breaks, pretty much everything had to do with them. After the Frieza saga, they're just used to undo the damage the bad guys did. They could have had more of a role in at least the Androids/Cell saga too. Gero and Cell both knew about the existance of the dragon Balls, yet they didn't try to utilize them.

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Post by PsyLiam » Sun Mar 28, 2004 8:11 pm

Dayspring wrote:I personally would have ended it after Trunks killed Cell. There was some minor lack of closure after the 23rd TB since Piccolo+Goku were so equally matched and Piccolo was still evil. After the Namek saga, when Goku goes SSJ, there's a HUGE lack of closure as the strongest person after Goku is Vegeta, who was still evil (what if he blew up the world? The only reason he didn't was because he was waiting for Goku) and everybody wants to know more about SSJ.
You don't have to tie up every loose end when finishing a series.

It doesn't matter that Goku and Piccolo were evenly matched. Goku defeated him once, and would no doubt do it again.

And I always assumed that if Toriyama had ended things after the Namek saga, Vegeta would have stayed dead. Or he'd have refuesed to have believed that Goku was dead, and departed on an endless quest for him, leaving Piccolo (the former arch-enemy) and Gohan (the little boy with amazing untapped powers who doesn't want to fight) as the protectors of Earth.

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Post by Jerseymilk » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:37 am

I still think that would have made a very interesting ending. Someone should interview Toriyama about what he would have done with everything had he ended it after Freeza.

Interviewer: Toriyama-san, if you had ended DBZ after the Freeza saga like you had originally planned, would you have left Vegita dead?

Toriyama: Who's Vegita?

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Post by Zackarotto » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:48 am

Too much of an exaggeration, Jersey. I think the most important character he's ever forgotten was Tao. Even then, he didn't exactly forget him. :lol:

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