Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by MajinMan » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:17 am

Talking shit about arcs that are a part of the same story isn't really going to help anyones case.
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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:18 am

Why does the villain have to start out with some connection to the hero? Buu might not have originally had a connection with Goku, but, by the end of the arc, Goku had been partially responsible for reviving him, and Buu had killed Goku's entire family, not to mention his planet. What more of a connection is needed?
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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by MozillaVulpix » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:29 am

If we use the same standards to judge the original series as we judge Super, the entire series ends up faring poorly, not just Buu or the Androids. Not just 'the arc you think is crap'.

My answer is because they haven't tried to introduce new characters or to develop old ones. Battle of Gods is great because it introduces Beerus, who adds a lot and actually has room to change as a character. GT tried to develop Pan, but it didn't end up amounting to anything. She doesn't help fight against Baby. And in the Evil Dragons, she's more of a hindrance than a help.

As for Resurrection 'F', no one really changed, but at least there's room for potential arcs for Goku and Vegeta there.

They also seem terrified to change the status quo (eg Goten and Trunks's appearance, making Goku an adult for SSJ4). In Dragon Ball, at least you felt like it was a story that was progressing and changing. Some of the newer material has a lack of consequences, which makes it feel like unnecessary side-stories.
I could have gotten into anything...and yet I chose the story aimed at young Japanese boys about martial arts, and later about super-powerful aliens punching each other really hard.

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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by Ashelia » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:35 am

Maybe because the series is too much of a hodgepodge to get everything 100% right. Tie that in with whats marketable/profitable (Goku, Vegeta, Super Saiyans) and you just get fluctuating mediocrity which to me is what Dragon Ball is post the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. There just isn't much left to do with anyone and even when attempts are made we go right back to Goku and Vegeta because of profit and the insane power gap as god forbid the focus be on anyone who isn't the strongest.

Even Bardock had to get a SS transformation to justify another special. Not exploring his or Saiyan origins via time travel or their rule under Freeza no just another SS fighting another Freeza because money. Still I commend GT more for attempting to do things slightly differently rather than just outright running with Goku and Vegeta as things do now. I'd rather see something try and fail then largely play it safe.

What exactly would you want in a series though and more importantly do you think it'd be successful?

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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by precita » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:06 am

The Buu saga is very fun. The episodes Goku and Vegeta are inside Buu's body fighting Buu coming out of the walls as well as "clones" of Gohan and the others is fun to watch. I know most of those scenes are filler but its still good.

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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by Khin » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:15 am

The Boo is good and the Cell Saga is definitely one if not the worst Saga in the series,i think majority of people who dislikes Boo Saga are Gohan fans and the majority who likes Cell Saga are also Gohan fans.About Xenoverse,the game have a really unique story compared to other games,i dont understand the hate towards it and Gohan was never a time patrol in Xenoverse.Minus is descent,unless you hate Superman,if you hate him,then your gonna hate Minus too.Battle of Gods is the best DBZ movie and Revival of 'F' is not as good as BOG,it was still descent and I have mixed opinions for Super so far.

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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by Black_Anime_Fan » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:44 am

That's funny because I think the majority of people who like the Boo arc are Goku fanboys and the majority of those who hated the Cell arc just hate Gohan. Call the Cell arc bad writing all you want, but the Boo arc is worse. But it gets a pass because its fun? All that moving forward with his writing Toriyama established from the end of Part 1 to Cell went out the window with the Boo arc and even though it wasn't quite executed well in Cell, I appreciate it since he tried. With Boo, he got lazy and didn't try. The writing (and drawing too) clearly shows since both took a big hit.
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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:46 am

Black_Anime_Fan wrote:That's funny because I think the majority of people who like the Boo arc are Goku fanboys and the ones who majority of those who hated the Cell arc just hate Gohan. Call the Cell arc writing all you want, but the Boo arc is worse. But it gets a pass because its fun? All that moving forward with his writing Toriyama established from the end of Part 1 to Cell went out the window with the Boo arc and even though it wasn't quite executed well in Cell, I appreciate it since he tried. With Boo, he got lazy and didn't try. The writing (and drawing too) clearly shows since both took a big hit.
I've never liked Goku, the Buu Arc is far better written than the Cell Arc, and kid Gohan was an excellent character prior to the Cell Games.

And as far as "getting a pass because it's fun" goes.....well, the primary goal of the series is entertainment. "Fun" seems to be the name of the game here.
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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by Khin » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:51 am

Black_Anime_Fan wrote:That's funny because I think the majority of people who like the Boo arc are Goku fanboys and the majority of those who hated the Cell arc just hate Gohan. Call the Cell arc bad writing all you want, but the Boo arc is worse. But it gets a pass because its fun? All that moving forward with his writing Toriyama established from the end of Part 1 to Cell went out the window with the Boo arc and even though it wasn't quite executed well in Cell, I appreciate it since he tried. With Boo, he got lazy and didn't try. The writing (and drawing too) clearly shows since both took a big hit.
I'm not even a Goku fan but i like Buu Saga,most people who love Buu Saga are Vegeta/Goku/Goten/Kid Trunks fans and most people who dislike it are Piccolo and Gohan fans.And about Cell Saga,Gohan is one of the fav character before but the Cell Saga made me hate him.In Freeza Saga,he was willing to fight (See the scene right before Piccolo appears) and suddenly in the Cell Games.He suddenly dont want to fight ? Even in Saiyan Saga,Gohan is willing to fight Vegeta when Goku goes down.

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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by HourglassIndigo » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:13 am

Black_Anime_Fan wrote:That's funny because I think the majority of people who like the Boo arc are Goku fanboys and the majority of those who hated the Cell arc just hate Gohan. Call the Cell arc bad writing all you want, but the Boo arc is worse. But it gets a pass because its fun? All that moving forward with his writing Toriyama established from the end of Part 1 to Cell went out the window with the Boo arc and even though it wasn't quite executed well in Cell, I appreciate it since he tried. With Boo, he got lazy and didn't try. The writing (and drawing too) clearly shows since both took a big hit.
This may be an odd statement, but I don't like the Buu Saga because of Goku. I like it because of Gohan. We get a break from goku at the beginning of the arc with the Sayiaman content which is my favorite part of the saga. I looove the content where Gohan trains Goten and Videl (despite how short it is). Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo are fun to watch while training. Then we get some epic battles with Vegeto, Mystic Gohan, and Goku. It doesn't have to be super serious to be good. Hell, look at Toriyama's earlier work in Dragon Ball. The first few arcs had major elements of fun and comedy, while still having serious moments. And those were all great sagas. So yeah, I stand by my opinion. The Buu Saga is good.

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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by precita » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:16 am

I love the world building in the Buu saga. The 7 year time skip did wonders to refresh the franchise. Can you imagine if we never had older Gohan, no Videl, no Goten or Kid Trunks, no older family oriented Vegeta, no Saiyaman, no Goku being dead for 7 years, no Mr. Satan as a hero once more, etc.

And as I said before, expanding the universe with the Kai's and how the Otherworld is structured is something they never delved into before the Buu arc.

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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:29 am

SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:
Black_Anime_Fan wrote:That's funny because I think the majority of people who like the Boo arc are Goku fanboys and the majority of those who hated the Cell arc just hate Gohan. Call the Cell arc bad writing all you want, but the Boo arc is worse. But it gets a pass because its fun? All that moving forward with his writing Toriyama established from the end of Part 1 to Cell went out the window with the Boo arc and even though it wasn't quite executed well in Cell, I appreciate it since he tried. With Boo, he got lazy and didn't try. The writing (and drawing too) clearly shows since both took a big hit.
I'm not even a Goku fan but i like Buu Saga,most people who love Buu Saga are Vegeta/Goku/Goten/Kid Trunks fans and most people who dislike it are Piccolo and Gohan fans.And about Cell Saga,Gohan is one of the fav character before but the Cell Saga made me hate him.In Freeza Saga,he was willing to fight (See the scene right before Piccolo appears) and suddenly in the Cell Games.He suddenly dont want to fight ? Even in Saiyan Saga,Gohan is willing to fight Vegeta when Goku goes down.
Goku wasn't exactly at his most likable during the Boo Saga and Gohan was afraid of his powers.

I'm expected a another "buu saga is good cuz it like db but cell saga sux cuz it too srs" would escalate.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by Khin » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:37 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote:I'm expected a another "buu saga is good cuz it like db but cell saga sux cuz it too srs" would escalate.
I think people dislike Cell Saga because how dumb the main characters act.
Goku wasn't exactly at his most likable during the Boo Saga
Maybe,but I'm pretty sure 99% of Goku fans like it when he turned SSj3 the first time or when Vegetto happened.

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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by Vijay » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:55 am

Goku & likable are synonymous

Wonder why Goku wasnt at his most likable in Buu Arc means?

He was far too matured? Or some of his decisions which backfired, thx to plot?

Regardless, his fights against Majin Vegeta, filler fights against Buutenks/Super Buu & titanic clash against Kid Buu in Kaioshin Realm was exciting as f***

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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:47 pm

I certainly believe a series after the Majin Boo arc can be very good, it just takes, well, proper writing and proper direction. That's all there really is to it. As far the Majin Boo arc itself is concerned, I loved it. It had the perfect balance of comedy, drama and character development, as well as a bit of world building, that the plot at the time desperately needed.

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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:54 pm

Barring the cat-and-mouse bits from the early portion of the Artificial Humans arc Dragon Ball hasn't been as good as it is now since the Namek arc. Vegeta finally isn't being used to advance the plot like a raging idiot, Beers and Whis are quaint with their lack of investment in the stakes the regular cast face, Gohan has a stable character arc, excessive transformations have been removed and we're getting storylines that don't have to do with combat.
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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:07 pm

SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:I think people dislike Cell Saga because how dumb the main characters act.
Most of the complaints I see towards Cell Saga here were because it was "too serious".
Maybe,but I'm pretty sure 99% of Goku fans like it when he turned SSj3 the first time or when Vegetto happened.
Goku also let his son's energy be stolen by Spopovich and Yamu without question, held back SSJ3 against both Majin Vegeta and Fat Boo, and left the fate of all existence on the shoulders of two rookies.

Oh and there's offering x-rated photos of his son's girlfriend then his (second) closest friend to the Elder Kaioshin while insulting his wife's figure.. . though this one is not meant to be taken literally but still.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by Michsi » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:19 pm

JulieYBM wrote: excessive transformations have been removed ...
We've gotten two new forms in less than 30 episiodes and I'm expecting at least one more.

I think the answer is pretty obvious, the manga ended with the Buu Saga. Even with Toriyama's input, it's not the same as having the plot laid out in front of you in almost story board format from the chapters.

You can argue that the Buu and Cell Saga weren't that great either, but each had enough ups to make up for the downs. I also heard his pre-Buu saga editor's influence had a lot to do with what made Dragon Ball such a landmark, so there's that too.

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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by successoroffate » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:22 pm

Another GT, RoF, BoG unfounded Hate topic. Great.
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Re: Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:23 pm

Michsi wrote:
JulieYBM wrote: excessive transformations have been removed ...
We've gotten two new forms in less than 30 episiodes and I'm expecting at least one more.
Not exactly what I was speaking of. Gokuu and Vegeta now have but one transformation. The narrative of a battle is no longer burdened by a character having multiple transformations as it was.
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