Social Media: Attacking Staff, Hypocritical Opinions, etc.

[Pokewhiz7]

I don't believe you answered the question. What right do you have to determine what is acceptable speech and what isn't? And why, honestly, should I care that somebody has been offended? Anybody can arbitrarily claim offense. Just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right.

Certainly people need to be educated in general, but I resent the notion that people need to be taught to think a certain way.

[samuraix123]

I haven't read every single post that has been made in this topic but I just wanted to say that from what I have read I agree with lots of peoples points. I think things are too politically correct today and I don't like it one bit. I hate that sometimes I can't say certain words (not harmful words) but words to get my point across without going into this conversation about (''Okaaaay I wasn't meaning that offensive etc etc) because then it just turns into a debate about how I'm not suppose to use the word stupid because that's not nice and could offend someone but I also agree with the guy that said every generation does this type of crap were one generation is better than the other and back in my time we used to walk in the snow barefoot 5 miles both ways to get where we had to go! nonsense. I don't think it's right to blame 1 generation but not the other.
people are always going to be causing problems and doing things that you shouldn't be doing like killing people, bullying etc. People will always be people...If some of them didn't have religion or whatever to kill for or do harm to their fellow man then they'd find something else to do it. This is what my grandfather told me one time because he thought it would put me in my place when I was trying to convince him that the doctor could help him(we were trying to get him to go to the doctor)
''I been on this world longer than he has. what's he going to do for me?''

[Cipher]

I haven't read every single post that has been made in this topic but I just wanted to say that from what I have read I agree with lots of peoples points. I think things are too politically correct today and I don't like it one bit.

The term "politically correct" is such a conservative victory (and by that I'm not trying to indict an entire side of the political spectrum, but to identify it with social conservatism that favors status quos and power structures remaining uninvestigated). No one wants to be told to use "politically" correct language, or any other kind of language that seems like an institution-driven intrusion on normal patterns of speech. At worst, it sounds like a draconian attack on free speech. At best, it paints that kind of more considerate speech as dishonest.

But if you cut out that bullshit rhetoric, all anyone's really asking is for is one thing: speaking with empathy.

EDIT -- I have no idea how the thread got here, but this one really gets me. I think it's one of the most insidious applications of language around.

[Analytical Delusion]

I don't believe you answered the question. What right do you have to determine what is acceptable speech and what isn't? And why, honestly, should I care that somebody has been offended? Anybody can arbitrarily claim offense. Just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right.

Certainly people need to be educated in general, but I resent the notion that people need to be taught to think a certain way.

I don't have that right as an individual. An offended group as an aggregate would have to determine that. I'm not going to say that you *should* care, but to me the right to not be offended is part of human dignity.

Apologies if I was unclear, people shouldn't be taught to think a certain way, but the goal should be to educate in order to limit/eliminate certain offensive/ignorant manners of thought which *can be* corrected with education (not indoctrination, which is one of the great evils of man, but exposure to different groups/cultures).

Anyhow just felt the need to chime in before since it's something I feel extremely strongly about, apologies for derailing the the thread since it's a bit off-topic now.

[samuraix123]

I'm honestly surprised though that the voice actors would even reply back to a comment like that though? I figured they seen so much nonsense from people all the time that they wouldn't even bother with a reply.

[VegettoEX]

I'm honestly surprised though that the voice actors would even reply back to a comment like that though? I figured they seen so much nonsense from people all the time that they wouldn't even bother with a reply.

Eh, I can understand it. If you have a little free time, and you have the skin to handle it, it's a fun little experiment. I wouldn't put myself anywhere near the level of someone actually involved in the production of the show (be it the original or a dub), but I've run into similar situations before. I find that a lot of the time, simply responding back to them like human beings gets an "oh shit I'm so sorry I wrote it that way, I was blowing off steam, I'm not really an asshole..."

[samuraix123]

I'm honestly surprised though that the voice actors would even reply back to a comment like that though? I figured they seen so much nonsense from people all the time that they wouldn't even bother with a reply.

Eh, I can understand it. If you have a little free time, and you have the skin to handle it, it's a fun little experiment. I wouldn't put myself anywhere near the level of someone actually involved in the production of the show (be it the original or a dub), but I've run into similar situations before. I find that a lot of the time, simply responding back to them like human beings gets an "oh shit I'm so sorry I wrote it that way, I was blowing off steam, I'm not really an asshole..."

I never thought about it like that. that's a good point.

[Basaku]

But if you cut out that bullshit rhetoric, all anyone's really asking is for is one thing: speaking with empathy.

Yup. Along with at least attempting to think for 2 seconds before opening mouth/clicking Send. It's really really not that complicated.

[Zephyr]

Anyhow to your larger point, ideally we need to accommodate everybody, but those offensive behaviors which are most widespread need to be corrected first. Stamp those out, and move down the chain based on urgency (in terms of frequency and degree of offensiveness). The backlash against political correctness and decorum needs to end.

I strongly disagree. I think that we generally share the goal of trying to minimize the frequency of people getting offended (and I think that this stems from the fact that nobody enjoys being offended; it's an unpleasant sensation). Once we agree on a goal, we can compare and contrast, hypothesize, and predict which course of action will most reliably, consistently, and in a long term sense, help us achieve our goal. What we're looking for in this case is what is most practical or pragmatic.

And if our goal is to minimize offense, I find it to be far more practical and pragmatic to minimize the likelihood that someone will be offended, rather than minimize the likelihood that they will come across some offensive stimuli.

If I train myself (and believe me, I have) to be able to more consistently resist the sensation of offense (it is, after all, an emotion), then no matter what offensive stimuli I am exposed to, I am less likely to be offended. If I simply avoid offensive stimuli, I have to constantly be careful. I don't know what might offend me, or in what context. It's a constant guessing game. It's unpredictable. It's un-secure. It's hardly a pragmatic and practical means of consistently and thoroughly achieving my end.

Likewise, if others were trained to have thicker skin, then no matter what I or someone else utters around them, they will be less likely to experience emotional harm. However, if someone takes full pride in their emotionally unpleasant sensations, and it is instead I who must reorient my behavior, then I am tasked with something for which I will always lack the necessary amount of information to successfully pull off. I don't know what this person is offended by, what that person is offended by; I can't always go by what is "generally" accepted, as that changes over time, and even still, others might be offended by political correctness. It turns everyone's life into an existence characterized by walking on eggshells. And since the same things never stay offensive or acceptable forever, it is also a constant game of jumping around, and keeping up with what is trendy to be too nice to say.

Allowing yourself to be offended by the words of another gives that person a sort of power over you. It gives them the power to cause you emotional pain at the press of a button. I don't want that for myself, and I'm honestly not comfortable with people I care about being that potentially easily harmed either.

If we're in a place where we can be harmed, I think it is wise to bolster our defenses. We can try to avoid harm all day, but what happens in the event that some gets through? When we leave our defenses this low, we practically invite this sort of harm, by making so easily inflicted, because there will likely always be some people in a bad mood, feeling vengeful toward us, or being downright despicable. It's better to remove one more factor that will breed unnecessary conflict. If we train ourselves and control our emotional reactions better, we're less likely to become needlessly hostile with someone else over some fucking words.

I suppose what I'm getting at is a sort of "teach someone how to swim, rather than hope they're never in a situation where they need to know how".

if you cut out that bullshit rhetoric, all anyone's really asking is for is one thing: speaking with empathy.

I agree that speaking with empathy is absolutely important. To clarify, with the above wall of text I'm not saying "people should just be assholes to each other", or something of the sort. Rather, I'm suggesting that both sides in any given disagreement have things they can do to minimize conflict, and it's the special role of the offendable to become less offendable, if minimizing offense is indeed the wider goal. Likewise, the less offendable should take the emotional maturity and degree of self control of others into consideration. Should I tell my grandmother some raunchy story, lined with curse words and offensive language, just because "lol they're just words"? Probably not, that would be in extremely poor judgment and would demonstrate a stark unawareness of the context in which I would be speaking. Some people have not yet acquired better control over their emotions; some people have not yet been able to do so; I should be considerate where I am able to find it appropriate, and the more my judgement skills and awareness of context grows, the more I'll trust my findings in where it is and is not appropriate.

I see two take home points that I'm trying to touch on here:

1. Train virtues, rather than forcing rules:
Don't tell people to "not say offensive things". Let them develop their own judgement for that sort of thing. If we train people in empathy, judgement, and self control, we will kill two birds with one stone: people will know when some words are and are not appropriate, and they will learn to control their reactions to people who use certain words at times we find inappropriate. Don't make things so black and white; allow some flexibility; allow context to matter, because contexts change constantly, and take on forms we could never have predicted. It's asinine to believe that we could formulate a rule that is appropriate to follow in every single possible context. Trying to beat something that black and white into the collective mind of a populace is just intellectually dishonest, and far from humble.

2. Train empathy in general, rather than specific manifestations of it:
Training people to speak empathetically, and then training people to think empathetically, and then training people to act empathetically, etc. is bogged down in too many disjointed steps, with too broad a focus. If we focus instead on the base, the root, the backbone of the problem, that which extends from it will naturally dissipate. Likewise, if we want to eliminate violence toward homosexuals, violence toward brown haired people, violence toward women, etc. it is the most efficient to go after violence in general. Minimize the causes of violence, and violence in all of its forms will very likely also minimize. Emphasize empathy in general, and empathetic thoughts, words, and actions will naturally follow.

Hope some of this came out relatively clear.

[precita]

Its a combination of the fandom having 15 years worth of hatred for the dub and its voice actors, and now the FUNI dub fans who don't like the new voices recasted for Kai, that causes all this negativity.

Personally I don't see why some people complain about the dub and its voices if they don't even watch it. Plenty of people here never watch and never will watch the dub again, yet they still rage about the voices like its a personal attack on them. If you don't watch the dub, why do you even care what they do? That's what I don't get. Its those of us who enjoy watching both the dub and original that can have valid criticism.

[samuraix123]

Its a combination of the fandom having 15 years worth of hatred for the dub and its voice actors, and now the FUNI dub fans who don't like the new voices recasted for Kai, that causes all this negativity.

Personally I don't see why some people complain about the dub and its voices if they don't even watch it. Plenty of people here never watch and never will watch the dub again, yet they still rage about the voices like its a personal attack on them. If you don't watch the dub, why do you even care what they do? That's what I don't get. Its those of us who enjoy watching both the dub and original that can have valid criticism.

I have a friend who hates the Japanese version and he'll sit and get angry that people enjoy it. He says it doesn't make sense to him when there's a superior version(The original US dub) and I just keep my mouth shut because I hate to say anything to make anyone mad if I can help it but he doesn't understand that the version he thinks is so superior is not so superior. and that's coming from a huge dub fan.

[Naruto6583]

Its a combination of the fandom having 15 years worth of hatred for the dub and its voice actors, and now the FUNI dub fans who don't like the new voices recasted for Kai, that causes all this negativity.

Personally I don't see why some people complain about the dub and its voices if they don't even watch it. Plenty of people here never watch and never will watch the dub again, yet they still rage about the voices like its a personal attack on them. If you don't watch the dub, why do you even care what they do? That's what I don't get. Its those of us who enjoy watching both the dub and original that can have valid criticism.

I have a friend who hates the Japanese version and he'll sit and get angry that people enjoy it. He says it doesn't make sense to him when there's a superior version(The original US dub) and I just keep my mouth shut because I hate to say anything to make anyone mad if I can help it but he doesn't understand that the version he thinks is so superior is not so superior. and that's coming from a huge dub fan.

I grew up with the dub as well but as I got to see the original japanese version more I came to love it and people have their own personal opinions yes but why get mad just because they like something you don't. Saying why should they watch that when they have a superior version is like forcing what you like onto them. That's not how it works but sadly you'll see people like that, youtube being a fine example some I facepalm at and some I roll my eyes at. Basically its as samuraix123 said if you don't like it don't watch it. Some people don't like kai I get that but it burns me up when they go on a kai video and say kai sucks z is better, okay why does kai suck to you? Make a valid argument just saying that is rude and disrespectful to the uploader. All that aside I laughed my ass off at ayers response like one of the post said it was classy as hell

[DoomieDoomie911]

I grew up with the dub as well but as I got to see the original japanese version more I came to love it and people have their own personal opinions yes but why get mad just because they like something you don't. Saying why should they watch that when they have a superior version is like forcing what you like onto them. That's not how it works but sadly you'll see people like that, youtube being a fine example some I facepalm at and some I roll my eyes at. Basically its as samuraix123 said if you don't like it don't watch it. Some people don't like kai I get that but it burns me up when they go on a kai video and say kai sucks z is better, okay why does kai suck to you? Make a valid argument just saying that is rude and disrespectful to the uploader. All that aside I laughed my ass off at ayers response like one of the post said it was classy as hell

This is exactly why every sensible Dragon Ball fan should be thankful for Kanzenshuu. This is literally one of the best communities that I've ever seen online. That's no exaggeration, either; pretty much everyone here is respectful and considerate.

[Naruto6583]

I grew up with the dub as well but as I got to see the original japanese version more I came to love it and people have their own personal opinions yes but why get mad just because they like something you don't. Saying why should they watch that when they have a superior version is like forcing what you like onto them. That's not how it works but sadly you'll see people like that, youtube being a fine example some I facepalm at and some I roll my eyes at. Basically its as samuraix123 said if you don't like it don't watch it. Some people don't like kai I get that but it burns me up when they go on a kai video and say kai sucks z is better, okay why does kai suck to you? Make a valid argument just saying that is rude and disrespectful to the uploader. All that aside I laughed my ass off at ayers response like one of the post said it was classy as hell

This is exactly why every sensible Dragon Ball fan should be thankful for Kanzenshuu. This is literally one of the best communities that I've ever seen online. That's no exaggeration, either; pretty much everyone here is respectful and considerate.

That is true and i've got to meet and conversate with a few fans because of it hell because of kanzenshuu i'm learning more about dragon ball than i ever did before

[samuraix123]

I grew up with the dub as well but as I got to see the original japanese version more I came to love it and people have their own personal opinions yes but why get mad just because they like something you don't. Saying why should they watch that when they have a superior version is like forcing what you like onto them. That's not how it works but sadly you'll see people like that, youtube being a fine example some I facepalm at and some I roll my eyes at. Basically its as samuraix123 said if you don't like it don't watch it. Some people don't like kai I get that but it burns me up when they go on a kai video and say kai sucks z is better, okay why does kai suck to you? Make a valid argument just saying that is rude and disrespectful to the uploader. All that aside I laughed my ass off at ayers response like one of the post said it was classy as hell

This is exactly why every sensible Dragon Ball fan should be thankful for Kanzenshuu. This is literally one of the best communities that I've ever seen online. That's no exaggeration, either; pretty much everyone here is respectful and considerate.

That is true and i've got to meet and conversate with a few fans because of it hell because of kanzenshuu i'm learning more about dragon ball than i ever did before

Agreed. I don't use the Internet as much as others probably do but if Kanzenshuu went down It would suck so much! thinking about it, Kanzenshuu is the only forum place that I talk in. there is a gaming site...I don't want to say it on here to slander them but it is the absolute worst place to ask a legit gaming question that I have ever ever ever came into contact with. it's filled with nothing but fanboys and trolls etc and it's not even worth asking a question there because it's just going to be trouble. here even though we all don't see eye to eye always, I feel I have friends here. and another thing I know I'm not the best with my writing and grammar but here I actually wanted to learn to spell words and such properly better than I did before.

[Naruto6583]

Agreed. I don't use the Internet as much as others probably do but if Kanzenshuu went down It would suck so much! thinking about it, Kanzenshuu is the only forum place that I talk in. there is a gaming site...I don't want to say it on here to slander them but it is the absolute worst place to ask a legit gaming question that I have ever ever ever came into contact with. it's filled with nothing but fanboys and trolls etc and it's not even worth asking a question there because it's just going to be trouble. here even though we all don't see eye to eye always, I feel I have friends here. and another thing I know I'm not the best with my writing and grammar but here I actually wanted to learn to spell words and such properly better than I did before.

Best of luck to ya my friend and I hope that kanzenshuu is around for a looooong time! So which voice actor are they going after next? colleen clinkenbeard, monica rial, most of the kai cast?

[TheBlackPaladin]

Has any VA ever quit due to fandom backlash? Considering most of the FUNI cast voiced the characters forever, has this ever happened?

It's quite possible that there are voice actors who quit due to backlash that we don't know about. Having said that, there is at leat one confirmed case of this, but not in the English cast.

The Latino Spanish dub of Kai had--at least compared to the Latino Spanish DBZ dub--a much lower budget, which made a lot of the original dub cast members too expensive. Among the original voices who couldn't be afforded was Laura Torres, the original voice of Gohan (as a kid). The actress that was brought in to replace her, Karina Altamirano, faced relentless, enraged--and often, very crass--criticism online. Apparently it affected her so much that she said she would never do anything Dragon Ball-related after her time on the show.

I feel really bad for her. It sounds like she was the target of a lot of anger that should have been directed at the producers, who didn't want to pay for the original cast. It's another example of why I have a lot of sympathy for voice actors: they're often the targets of criticism for things that aren't their fault.

[EXBadguy]

I just came here to say that despite the nastiness, one good thing about this crazy fanbase is that it ain't like the Steven Universe fanbase, where they drove a female artist to commit suicide over something dumb. Juuust trying to lighten things up a bit due to so much reading in this thread.

Social media.... thank GOD I deactivated my Twitter and don't check fan pages on Facebook and Instagram. And Tumblr, shit, it brings out people's true colors.

[kei17]

Masaki Satou, a famous DB animator known for the animation in DBZ episode 64, once followed me on Twitter, but one of his followers accidentally retweeted my very old tweet that kinda criticizes Satou's work, and then he ranted at me and I got unfollowed.
After that I completely stopped communicating with people involved with anime productions because it made me hard to tweet about my honest feelings.

[Fionordequester]

Masaki Satou, a famous DB animator known for the animation in DBZ episode 64, once followed me on Twitter, but one of his followers accidentally retweeted my very old tweet that kinda criticizes Satou's work, and then he ranted at me and I got unfollowed.
After that I completely stopped communicating with people involved with anime productions because it made me hard to tweet about my honest feelings.

And that right there is one of the reasons why you want to be careful what you post. You never know who might happen across it one day. Course, I don't know whether Kei's criticisms were fairly worded, or if Satou just had a very thin skin, or whatever, you're always going to end up offending SOMEONE at some point no matter what...but still, you get my point.