DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

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DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by MarCas92 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:11 pm

Not accounting for nostalgia, a lot of people (including myself) feel that the first half(?)/part is better than the second. Kid Goku's adventure's as a child are just better told and quite frankly more cohesive and interesting narratives. However, no one can deny the impact the Z portion of the story has not only in anime but pop culture as a whole.

Could it be the reason the Z portion is more popular and loved by most fans is because it has higher points?

Think of all the iconic moments in the franchise. They are mostly Z: The SSJ Transformation, the SSJ2 Transformation, Father Son Kamehameha, Trunks killing Freeza.

Don't get me wrong, the first half has iconic moments as well. Most notably Goku punching a hole through Piccolo Daimao. But comparing the two, it''s clear that the original DB never reaches the same heights that Z reaches. Why do you feel that is? Do feel that may also be the reason why most people gloss over the first part of the series?

I mean, the Android Arc is by far my least favorite part of the franchise. I don't think it's the worst,but it's definitely my least favorite. But again, when I think of some of my favorite moments in the franchise, a large majority are from there: Trunks killing Freeza, Goku dying, Goku talking to Gohan from Kaio's, Goku vs Cell, Tenshinhans Kikoho etc.

Maybe its a symptom/cause effects. Maybe it's not that people prefer DBZ because it has more memorable moments, maybe it has more memorable moments because they prefer that part of the story. Maybe it's just an exposure thing?
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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by sintzu » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:16 pm

Z has everything that fans love about the franchise.

It has the epic battles, the fan favorite characters, the classic moments & the transformations.

To me the original DB feels like a prequel that was written after Z. does anyone who's seen Z 1st see it like that as well ? a prequel that isn't required to watch before Z ?
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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by MarCas92 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:28 pm

sintzu wrote: To me the original DB feels like a prequel that was written after Z. does anyone who's seen Z 1st see it like that as well ? a prequel that isn't required to watch before Z ?
See, I can't get behind that. Its all one story. It was written that way and it was meant to be seen that way. I'm of the opinion that if you think the 1st part of the story is just supplementary, not only do have a very warped view of Dragon Ball, but you probably are blind to its themes and character arcs.
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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by Doctor. » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:30 pm

Most people glance over the first part of the series simply because they find the second part better. It's literally that simple. Now, I'm not one of these people, especially when comparing the anime adaptations, but I can definitely understand why, the Saiyan and Freeza arcs put anything in part 1 to bed, and after those two, you're already so engaged in the story, that you don't care if the next two arcs are mediocre or bad.

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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:47 pm

sintzu wrote:Z has everything that fans love about the franchise.

It has the epic battles, the fan favorite characters, the classic moments & the transformations.

To me the original DB feels like a prequel that was written after Z. does anyone who's seen Z 1st see it like that as well ? a prequel that isn't required to watch before Z ?
:lolno:
But I do agree that Z has more moments. I like to read an entire saga of Dragon Ball and I like to read a volume of "z" if that makes any sense.
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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by Lionel » Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:54 pm

I think it's one part the characters, another part the transformations, and then a third part involving the ambiance. It's true Z took a turn towards the more serious action oriented shonen from its more adventurous and comically light-hearted predecessor. We got to see events unfold through the eyes of other characters which helped establish a bond between them and the viewers. Dragon Ball was all about Goku this and Goku that. We also saw the stakes being constantly raised with these universal threats and highly destructive battles with massive explosions and gaudy transformations to combat them. Even I'll admit that Z had better ideas with regards to its use of more of the characters and the tone of the plot. What I don't like is the simplification of the combat and overabundance of Saiyan related material. If I had to choose between keeping either one, I would be tempted to side with the original DB.

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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:05 pm

It depends. I see the story as a whole, but I understand that it has a lot to do with how you saw it.
If you saw DBZ first, you may see it as a self-contained story, but I can't think about it that way.

I mean, if you start with Z, don't you wonder who all those guys are? I mean, you can get the general idea, but I'd start wondering why Goku and Piccolo are enemies, or why Piccolo and Kami are linked.
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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by Theophrastus » Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:49 pm

sintzu wrote:To me the original DB feels like a prequel that was written after Z. does anyone who's seen Z 1st see it like that as well ? a prequel that isn't required to watch before Z ?
I feel that way once in a while, but I attribute that largely to Toonami's marketing back in the day kinda treating DB like the DBZ equivalent of Muppet Babies.

Like...I'm well aware that DB came first, but the marketing left such a strong impression on me that sometimes I can't help but think of it as "the story of what Goku was like as a kid", as opposed to "the beginning of the series"...if that makes any sense.

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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:58 pm

I certainly think the original Dragon Ball anime is superior to the DBZ anime in many areas. I honestly feel as though Dragon Ball fans who never watched the original DB anime and stuck to the DBZ anime missed out on a lot of the charm, sense of adventure and genuine fun that made Dragon Ball so popular in the first place. I also really feel as though you appreciate the supporting cast in DBZ, who manage to stay relevant, a lot more if you actually watch the first half of the story.

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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:24 pm

sintzu wrote:To me the original DB feels like a prequel that was written after Z. does anyone who's seen Z 1st see it like that as well ? a prequel that isn't required to watch before Z ?
Not at all. I feel they would have done much more to make a "prequel" like Z. In other words, it would probably feel much more like GT. They'd do their best to top the epic battles, make not-so-subtle nods of "foreshadowing" and winking at the audience for things they know and the characters don't. And things like world full of talking animals and other such aberrations would be nowhere to be found. The earlier parts of the series feel just like what it is, the earlier parts of the series, with all the fresh ideas, growing pains, and progression you would expect. It isn't structured like a prequel in any way.
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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by FoolsGil » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:00 pm

sintzu wrote:To me the original DB feels like a prequel that was written after Z. does anyone who's seen Z 1st see it like that as well ? a prequel that isn't required to watch before Z ?
Yes, because that is exactly what happened in America in the 90s. Z aired first, with no explanation of who or what was going on, we kids ate it up anyways, then when Goku was a household name, Dragonball aired.
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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by B » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:03 pm

Kunzait once made a big post (lol) that has since been replaced with the letter "b" somewhere about online fandom's reactions to the Freeza arc as it was happening. Apparently, there were a lot of Dr. Slump faithfuls who primarily were interested in Toriyama's work as a comedy writer and were turned off at how self-serious things were going, and he specifically cited the scene where Cargo, Dende's brother, is killed as a turning point for a lot of fans. I wish he hadn't deleted it, as I can't remember if he was speaking in relation to the anime or the manga; I'd have to assume it was the anime.

I think the simplest answer is probably the correct one: the Z-era contains more crowd-pleasing aspects and elements, so some have no problem dividing into parts where one has everything they want. Look at the box office sales any given week; action and violence trump laughs.
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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:15 pm

Dragon Ball was all about Goku this and Goku that. We also saw the stakes being constantly raised with these universal threats and highly destructive battles with massive explosions and gaudy transformations to combat them. Even I'll admit that Z had better ideas with regards to its use of more of the characters and the tone of the plot. What I don't like is the simplification of the combat and overabundance of Saiyan related material. If I had to choose between keeping either one, I would be tempted to side with the original DB.
"Batman was all Batman this and Batman that." Why do you seem to dislike the idea of the main character having the focus firmly on him? And I don't agree that Z had better ideas with regards to its use of more of the characters. DB made much better use of all of its characters.
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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by Cipher » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:16 pm

sintzu wrote:To me the original DB feels like a prequel that was written after Z. does anyone who's seen Z 1st see it like that as well ? a prequel that isn't required to watch before Z ?
Try actually watching/reading it through in order, and see if that feeling disappears.

If nothing else, some of the character things happening in the Saiyan and Namek arcs feel extremely bizarre and unsatisfying without having experienced previous material. As was said above, they do a lot to put the content in "part one" to bed. Even as someone who watched Z first, it feels like a lot of information is missing in the Saiyan arc. You're missing out on the impact of character deaths, character changes, and even the subversion of having everyone train for a year only to bite it. A lot of it plays as climax and revelation rather than introduction.

I know it's a popular view that the (really fantastic and whimsical) science-fiction content in the Saiyan arc, along with the time skip, creates a clear divide between halves, but to me it feels like a direction that's perfectly natural moving on from the Piccolo arcs, and actually continues to engage with a lot of what they set up.

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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:19 pm

Cipher wrote:
sintzu wrote:To me the original DB feels like a prequel that was written after Z. does anyone who's seen Z 1st see it like that as well ? a prequel that isn't required to watch before Z ?
Try actually watching/reading it through in order, and see if that feeling disappears.

If nothing else, some of the character things happening in the Saiyan and Namek arcs feel extremely bizarre and unsatisfying without having experienced previous material. As was said above, they do a lot to put the content in "part one" to bed. Even as someone who watched Z first, it feels like a lot of information is missing in the Saiyan arc. You're missing out on the impact of character deaths, character changes, and even the subversion of having everyone train for a year only to bite it. A lot of it plays as climax and revelation rather than introduction.

I know it's a popular view that the (really fantastic and whimsical) science-fiction content in the Saiyan arc, along with the time skip, creates a clear divide between halves, but to me it feels like a direction that's perfectly natural moving on from the Piccolo arcs, and actually continues to engage with a lot of what they set up.
The drama of Goku and Piccolo having to team up to defeat a bigger threat isn't nearly as rewarding without seeing their rivalry.
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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by Cipher » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:22 pm

ABED wrote:The drama of Goku and Piccolo having to team up to defeat a bigger threat isn't nearly as rewarding without seeing their rivalry.
Definitely.

In fact, pretty much everything in the Saiyan arc is reliant upon the way it responds to previous material.

Like, Dragon Ball's not overly complex, so if you want to, you can jump in just about anywhere and start enjoying this wacky/cool series about super-powered martial-art aliens (and plenty of U.S. fans, myself included, did), but the Saiyan arc is a really arbitrary place to do so. Maybe even one of the worst ones.

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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by fadeddreams5 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:32 pm

I mean, I like Dragon Ball (anime), but it's not that particularly exciting or interesting to me. It simply doesn't warrant a rewatch (I've watched the important parts of the series twice). The best part of Dragon Ball is the Piccolo saga. Guess what? This is the saga that most closely resembles DBZ, and whenever people claim DBZ has no differences from DB, they use the last arc as an example as though it encompasses 100% of the series, which it does not.

If Toriyama had split DB and DBZ in his original manga, I feel many people who view them as one story (i.e. not halves of each other) would not. The distinctions between the two halves are as clear as day, even if they are completely unintentional, and the split makes perfect sense imo.
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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by Vijay » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:39 pm

As casual viewer, I like DBZ for its "actions". Actions means fights, earth-shattering transformations etc

As humbled fan, I dare say no single anime touches original DB. Its magical "moments" are such, esp first 10 episodes or so. You can literally grasp the Journey to the West atmosphere thru the screen. Vintage Toriyama!

Popularity doesnt equate to quality imo

Naruto was popular worldwide. I felt it was trash & doesnt hold a candle to GT/Super

If anything, just ask TOEI to re-animate DB (with Cell/Buu Arc animation quality) & watch how its merchandise & TV rating skyrockets.

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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by Bullza » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:41 pm

Dragon Ball is a good anime but it's a little bland compared to Dragon Ball Z.

DBZ introduced some of the series most popular characters while getting rid of most of the annoying comic relief characters.

The story was more interesting and varied.

There were more memorable moments and fights.

The music was better because Faulconer scored it.

The show in general didn't look as dated and just didn't have as much gag humour.

The filler is vastly superior especially from the Cell saga onwards.

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Re: DB and DBZ: Parts vs Whole

Post by Herms » Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:43 pm

Cipher wrote:Like, Dragon Ball's not overly complex, so if you want to, you can jump in just about anywhere and start enjoying this wacky/cool series about super-powered martial-art aliens (and plenty of U.S. fans, myself included, did), but the Saiyan arc is a really arbitrary place to do so. Maybe even one of the worst ones.
I guess like the old joke about democracy goes, it's the absolute worst spot to jump in at, apart from all the other spots.

I mean, personally I started off catching random snippets from the Freeza and android arcs, and in time moved to collecting Viz's release of the RR arc. Even if virtually all Western fans are exposed to Z first, many (maybe most?) don't necessarily start off right with Raditz, either.

There's no denying that the Saiyan arc introduces many new elements into the series, and obviously it's worked for many people as a starting point. On its own, I don't particularly mind that the anime split the series up into DB and DBZ. But the way this split the anime made has ultimately led to people treating the first third of the series as essentially just the characters hanging around waiting for Raditz to show up is possibly one of my biggest pet peeves when it comes to the franchise.
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