Frieza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by omaro34 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:12 pm

nickzambuto wrote:
omaro34 wrote:Freeza was the best villain in Dragonball before the ROF movie, and this is mainly due to his characteristics, back story, and personality. He is the only villain that is written the best, being the galactic dictator whose name is heard all over the universe. Not many villains are as cold, cautious, selfish, and ruthless as Freeza.. No other villain has a galactic army and empire like Freeza did. He paved the way for other villains in other shows as well.

As far as him being the strongest villain in the show to date, the idea that he is a prodigy came out of nowhere and the audience ask themselves why didn't he train even a little throughout his life to ensure nobody challenges his strength? I mean if he was that scared of the Saiyans, yeah he could blow the planet up which he did, but he could easily train and continue to enslave the Saiyan race.

But oh well. Toriyama has always improvised on his writing over the years, which is the root cause of many inconsistencies.
The second strongest person outside of Freeza's family was Captain Ginyu, who was literally 1,000 times weaker than Freeza... why on Earth would Freeza bother training to "ensure nobody challenges his strength" when that is the closest anyone has ever come? You can't get much more assured than that...
The simple answer is that you truly never know who's out there. He was scared of the Saiyans so he decided to wipe them out. After he survived the battle on Namek but lost to Goku, a rational person who has the insane potential that Freeza has would have trained so that no Super Saiyan ever challenged him again.

His laziness is what got him killed by the hands of a Saiyan in the end.
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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:21 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
Most of what you said doesn't really make any sense from an in-universe perspective. How does being a Oozaru correlate to how strong you are as a SSJ4? Was that ever stated in the show or the GT Perfect Files? Where is it implied that Goku used 1/10th of his power? Why is Fat Boo only twice as strong as SSJ2 Teen Gohan from the Majin Boo arc? Who stated that destroying the universe was a chain reaction? When was it factually stated that SS4 Goku was x10 stronger than SSJ3 GT Goku? Who? What? Where? When? Why? :crazy:

Okay, I really, really, really don't mean to sound rude, but a lot of what you claim to be not made up or power level stuff, sounds exactly like that.

Because Baby became 10x stronger when he went oozaru. Look at the #'s. if baby> goku and baby got 10x stronger....then ssj4 has to be above 10x ssj3 for goku to beat baby, let alone beat him after baby beat him up. It's just logic.

what?

as I said gohan filled up half the power to revive buu with only gohan's ki. He filled up buu's power back to 50%. It's in the anime and manga man,

if you watch it just doesn't happen it spreads out and then destroys planets FAR AWAY from the radius.

by fanboys who think oozaruu=ssj4 goku which I said wasn't true. Did you even read what I said carefully?

None of it is power level stuff, it's just using common sense. If Vegito fought beerus and used kaiokenx2 and was equal to beerus, then beerus is only 2x the power of vegito in that scenario. It's just using logic with what's presented.
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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:55 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
Most of what you said doesn't really make any sense from an in-universe perspective. How does being a Oozaru correlate to how strong you are as a SSJ4? Was that ever stated in the show or the GT Perfect Files? Where is it implied that Goku used 1/10th of his power? Why is Fat Boo only twice as strong as SSJ2 Teen Gohan from the Majin Boo arc? Who stated that destroying the universe was a chain reaction? When was it factually stated that SS4 Goku was x10 stronger than SSJ3 GT Goku? Who? What? Where? When? Why? :crazy:

Okay, I really, really, really don't mean to sound rude, but a lot of what you claim to be not made up or power level stuff, sounds exactly like that.

Because Baby became 10x stronger when he went oozaru. Look at the #'s. if baby> goku and baby got 10x stronger....then ssj4 has to be above 10x ssj3 for goku to beat baby, let alone beat him after baby beat him up. It's just logic.

what?

as I said gohan filled up half the power to revive buu with only gohan's ki. He filled up buu's power back to 50%. It's in the anime and manga man,

if you watch it just doesn't happen it spreads out and then destroys planets FAR AWAY from the radius.

by fanboys who think oozaruu=ssj4 goku which I said wasn't true. Did you even read what I said carefully?

None of it is power level stuff, it's just using common sense. If Vegito fought beerus and used kaiokenx2 and was equal to beerus, then beerus is only 2x the power of vegito in that scenario. It's just using logic with what's presented.
I'm sorry, but I'm not sure if most what you said is actual logic. It just sounds like arbitrary numbers being used to fill in holes in when try to calculate the strength of character that can't really be calculated to even begin with. You make a lot of assumptions but don't provide enough actual statements to back them up.

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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:00 pm

I've literally done nothing but back up facts with facts and THOSE FACTS with facts. Show me where I pull out something from thin air? Give me one example. -_-
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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by rereboy » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:10 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:
He wiped the Saiyans out partially because of what they could become, but also because he disliked them in general. It wasn't just the possibility of them being Super Saiyans that drove him to that decision.
Freeza dislikes pretty much everybody since he thinks all are beneath him so that's irrelevant. He decided to get rid of them in particular because they might have caused trouble in the future, and by thinking along these lines he was portrayed as being calculating and careful. That's what matters.
Because he had an odd premonition that a powerful Saiyan was somewhere getting stronger and stronger. A premonition is far different than reality. Not just that, but he also needed scouters to find the remaining dragon balls. Zarbon's incompetence didn't help matters, either.
Freeza takes extraordinary measures when he gets a feeling or a premonition, but, after almost dying at the hands of a saiyan, he thinks that training for a bit, which would make him hundreds of times stronger, is not worthwhile. That just proves my point, honestly. And any of his soldiers could have brought him scouters.
It wasn't just his upgrade. He also had another powerful being to make things easier (in his mind) in his upcoming battle if need be. There are literally no other options for Freeza in RoF outside of training. The Mechanization and King Cold at least makes Freeza decision to not train understandable. He wasn't going to earth empty-handed in his rematch.
He takes his father along, that isn't even stronger than himself, but he refuses to train for a bit which would be much more worthwhile than bringing his father since that would make him hundreds of times stronger. That just makes him look even stupider.
Simple. Freeza didn't think he'd lose this time around because he thought his new power-up was enough to change the outcome. If his new power alone wasn't enough, he had King Cold by his side to make the battle (again in his mind) an easy victory. He had a plan a and a plan b. That's really what it comes down to. He just happened to overestimate himself.
If he wanted to kill Goku and be the strongest, training was a MUCH better plan that those two and it pretty much guaranteed that desired outcome. However, Freeza intentionally refused to follow this course of action and, instead, choose to follow a course of action that had MUCH LESS chances of resulting in that outcome. All because he didn't wanted to train for a bit. Therefore, a stupid course of action.

Of course. However, it's clear that he thought his new power was enough, which is why he said he'll show Goku that he's the strongest in the universe. If he didn't believe it was enough, he wouldn't have said that. Freeza made ridiculous gains in RoF, but he still didn't take the time to iron the kinks out in his Golden form. This shows that Freeza doesn't always think things through--and is pretty susceptible to making rash decisions. Knowing what we know now, Freeza's mind was bent on revenge and he took the easy way out. He's not above that, so we don't need to assume that he is.
I fully understand what Freeza thought. That's not in question. What's in question is that what Freeza thought is stupid and shows no traces of his previous portrayal of being calculating and careful. That's my point.

Well, yeah. We know his mechanization pales in comparison to his actual dormant power, but he took the easier option over the more difficult one. Freeza didn't think Goku was so far beyond him that he'd need to train, which is why he thought his Mecha power would be the deciding factor in the rematch. In RoF, when he learned that Goku defeated Boo, he knew his dormant power had to be brought out if he had any hopes of winning.
And taking the easier option when he doesn't want to die, when he wants to kill Goku, and whens he wants to be the strongest there is, is why he was stupid.

That student had no other alternative but to study. He didn't have a cheat sheet (Mecha) or a scumbag teacher (King Cold) to improve his chances at succeeding in the retest. That's exactly what Freeza had. The student can feel better all he wants, but his mind wasn't artificially enhanced and no one is there to help him in case he falters. The student is more comparable to Freeza in RoF, since that Freeza also had no other option to win but the obvious one.

Also, while some people are just naturally gifted in intelligence, they've at least done some semblance of studying throughout their life. The difference between them and others is that they were able to grasp the material at a quicker and easier rate than their peers. Freeza was born with a Battle Power far beyond comprehension and never once had to train. It was a foreign concept to him. He had to transform backwards because of the intense power he possessed. It's really not surprising that his mechanization would be enough to convince him that he was fine challenging Goku again.
No, no, you misunderstood my example...

Like I said, the student feels more ready to take the second exam. That means that his attention is sharper, he is more relaxed, and his physical and mental condition are overall better than in the exam he failed. Why is so? Let's imagine that he has been taking supplements to enhance his overall performance and as a result he is in an better overall state to take the exam.

In short, his overall better state to take the exam corresponds to Freeza's artificial enhancements.

That means that just like Freeza, the student is actually in a better condition to take the exam than he was when he failed previously. But just like Freeza he would be in a much better condition if he had study/trained for it, his condition would actually improve hundreds of times, just like Freeza's would. Despite this, just like Freeza, due to being in a better state this time around, he just chooses to not study/train. And, like Freeza, that's pretty stupid if he truly wants to be the best and not suffer the consequences of failing.

No, he isn't. The student never had the resources that Freeza did, so it's not really comparable.
That's just you not understanding the example like explained above.
Last edited by rereboy on Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:18 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:I've literally done nothing but back up facts with facts and THOSE FACTS with facts. Show me where I pull out something from thin air? Give me one example. -_-
"If Vegito fought beerus and used kaiokenx2 and was equal to beerus, then beerus is only 2x the power of vegito in that scenario"

Explain that with actual facts.

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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:36 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:I've literally done nothing but back up facts with facts and THOSE FACTS with facts. Show me where I pull out something from thin air? Give me one example. -_-
"If Vegito fought beerus and used kaiokenx2 and was equal to beerus, then beerus is only 2x the power of vegito in that scenario"

Explain that with actual facts.

In that scenario it's self explanatory....kaioken x2 DOUBLEs your power. If you DOUBLE your power to EQUAL somebody then clearly you are half there power. It's common sense. I don't get how you find that as not a fact. It's a perfect example of what I said accept I made a scenario instead to remove potential bias you may have. Then again I used Beerus so IDK if that offended you.
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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by ShadowBardock89 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:05 pm

Even though you're right that Ol' Mark bit it when Freeza blew up Earth, it was nullified by Whis. It never happened because Goku Cena'd Freeza.
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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:11 pm

rereboy wrote:Freeza dislikes pretty much everybody since he thinks all are beneath him so that's irrelevant. He decided to get rid of them in particular because they might have caused trouble in the future, and by thinking along these lines he was portrayed as being calculating and careful. That's what matters.
Good point.
Freeza takes extraordinary measures when he gets a feeling or a premonition, but, after almost dying at the hands of a saiyan, he thinks that training for a bit, which would make him hundreds of times stronger, is not worthwhile. That just proves my point, honestly. And any of his soldiers could have brought him scouters.
Because Freeza thought he had a grasp of Goku's capabilities by that point. Hearing that Goku had become powerful enough to defeat Boo surprised Freeza, and he makes it clear that he didn't expect him to change that much. With that in mind, he probably wasn't expecting Goku to be any different than he was on namek when he went to earth many yrs back. Not overwhelmingly much, anyway. Also, we're specifically told why he called the Ginyu Force. It was to bring scouters and capture Vegeta to find the balls.

The same Goku told Freeza they could have a rematch if he regained his stamina and learned some new techniques after fighting a close battle with him where his stamina was the factor in why he lost. It's really not a stretch to see why he'd go straight to earth after being rebuilt with greater power than he's ever had. Training being a far more efficient option doesn't make him stupid--just like not destroying the planet doesn't make him stupid.
He takes his father along, that isn't even stronger than himself, but he refuses to train for a bit which would be much more worthwhile than bringing his father since that would make him hundreds of times stronger. That just makes him look even stupider.
Cold isn't much weaker than Freeza, so it isn't really stupid. This is the same guy that thought a weaker Zarbon and Dodoria could handle a more powerful Vegeta if they worked together. The difference here is Freeza already thinks his mechanization has made him powerful enough to take Goku himself. You're too fixated on his lack of training to look at the big picture.

Freeza admitted that he was weaker upon resurrection, so he wouldn't be able to get his revenge right away. The idea of training only became a thought when he learned how much more powerful Goku had become since he's been gone. Knowing all of that, it isn't surprising that training would be the furthest thing from his mind when he was rebuilt with more power.

You know what would've guaranteed an even swifter victory? Destroying the earth from space, which was suggested by Cold. Was he stupid for not doing that? Opting not to train doesn't add a blemish to the characterization of Freeza because he was never infallible to begin with.
If he wanted to kill Goku and be the strongest, training was a MUCH better plan that those two and it pretty much guaranteed that desired outcome. However, Freeza intentionally refused to follow this course of action and, instead, choose to follow a course of action that had MUCH LESS chances of resulting in that outcome. All because he didn't wanted to train for a bit. Therefore, a stupid course of action.
Blowing up the earth guaranteed the desired outcome, too, but it doesn't change the overall point. He simply didn't do it. That being said, his mechanization must've gave him a big enough boost to the point where he didn't need to think about training. It isn't stupid, just not well thought out on his end.
I fully understand what Freeza thought. That's not in question. What's in question is that what Freeza thought is stupid and shows no traces of his previous portrayal of being calculating and careful. That's my point.
So because he was calculating on two instances, that means he always needs to be calculating? That simply isn't true. Freeza was never in a situation like this before, so it's not really out of this world for him to misjudge the situation and react irrationally.
And taking the easier option when he doesn't want to die, when he wants to kill Goku, and whens he wants to be the strongest there is, is why he was stupid.
Actually, blowing up the earth or destroying Goku's spaceship would've been the easiest option and he refused. Not only would he have retained his title as the strongest in the universe, but it would've required no effort. That's what he usually does (blow up planets) when he's not sure of things, right? He was confident 100% would be enough for Goku, but beforehand, he tried to blow up namek because he didn't want to take any chances. So no, it isn't stupid.
Let's imagine that he has been taking supplements to enhance his overall performance and as a result he is in an better overall state to take the exam.

In short, his overall better state to take the exam corresponds to Freeza's artificial enhancements.

That means that just like Freeza, the student is actually in a better condition to take the exam than he was when he failed previously. But just like Freeza he would be in a much better condition if he had study/trained for it, his condition would actually improve hundreds of times, just like Freeza's would. Despite this, just like Freeza, due to being in a better state this time around, he just chooses to not study/train. And, like Freeza, that's pretty stupid if he truly wants to be the best and not suffer the consequences of failing.
You keep saying it's stupid. That's not being stupid. He simply miscalculated the situation and got his ass handed to him for it.
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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:51 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:I've literally done nothing but back up facts with facts and THOSE FACTS with facts. Show me where I pull out something from thin air? Give me one example. -_-
"If Vegito fought beerus and used kaiokenx2 and was equal to beerus, then beerus is only 2x the power of vegito in that scenario"

Explain that with actual facts.

In that scenario it's self explanatory....kaioken x2 DOUBLEs your power. If you DOUBLE your power to EQUAL somebody then clearly you are half there power. It's common sense. I don't get how you find that as not a fact. It's a perfect example of what I said accept I made a scenario instead to remove potential bias you may have. Then again I used Beerus so IDK if that offended you.
What bias? Goku states that fusion wouldn't make any difference against Beerus in Battle Of Gods and Super. And when he mentioned that, he was very most likely referring to both Vegetto and Gogeta since his only instance of actually fusing with someone was with Vegeta using the Potara earrings and he also knows about the Fusion Dance. And that when he fought Beerus for the first time who was practically uses less than 1% of his power and he wrecked him. So whether you like it or not, it's heavily implied in Battle Of Gods and Dragon Ball Super, ~1% Beerus >>>>> Vegetto/Gogeta.

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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by rereboy » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:25 pm


Actually, blowing up the earth or destroying Goku's spaceship would've been the easiest option and he refused. Not only would he have retained his title as the strongest in the universe, but it would've required no effort. That's what he usually does (blow up planets) when he's not sure of things, right? He was confident 100% would be enough for Goku, but beforehand, he tried to blow up namek because he didn't want to take any chances. So no, it isn't stupid.
Freeza doesn't want to just kill Goku, he wants to beat him in combat. And then kill him.

He's not stupid for wanting to be better than Goku in a fight. That is fine, it's just a goal and it's not a stupid goal. Heck, it's more or less the goal of most of the cast. However, since Freeza had a pretty sure way to actually become better than him in a fight that was much better than any other option he had, and he intentionally didn't use it purely out of laziness... now that is being stupid.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:You keep saying it's stupid. That's not being stupid. He simply miscalculated the situation and got his ass handed to him for it.

A simple miscalculation would be something like not applying enough force for Namek to immediately explode, like Freeza actually did when he was on Namek. That's a miscalculation. Freeza's choice in not training is much more than that.

Like stated, Freeza had a pretty sure way to beat Goku and be the strongest.

He intentionally chose to not use that option out of laziness.

That's being stupid. And lazy.
So because he was calculating on two instances, that means he always needs to be calculating? That simply isn't true. Freeza was never in a situation like this before, so it's not really out of this world for him to misjudge the situation and react irrationally.
Not at all. Freeza attacked Goku on Namek when Goku was letting him go. Do you see me complaining about that? No, because Freeza not being calculating and careful after he had just lost and been humiliated (and while he was still in the heat of battle) is perfectly understandable since he is also pretty arrogant.

However, after Freeza was put back together, Freeza was no longer in the heat of battle and he had all the time in the world to reflect and think on what to do. In those circumstances it's no longer understandable for Freeza to not be not even a little bit calculating or careful and not choose the best way to make sure he beats Goku in combat.
Blowing up the earth guaranteed the desired outcome, too, but it doesn't change the overall point. He simply didn't do it. That being said, his mechanization must've gave him a big enough boost to the point where he didn't need to think about training. It isn't stupid, just not well thought out on his end.
"Not well thought out" is how we can describe most of the actions that are stupid. And like I said above, blowing up the Earth would only make sense if he wanted to just kill Goku, not if he wanted to beat him. And he wanted to beat him.
Cold isn't much weaker than Freeza, so it isn't really stupid.
If that was his only option, it wouldn't be stupid. But he had a much better one. He chose against it out of laziness. That's what makes it stupid.
This is the same guy that thought a weaker Zarbon and Dodoria could handle a more powerful Vegeta if they worked together.
And he was right. They told Freeza about Vegeta's power level and Freeza figured that it wasn't enough to take them both out at the same time. In fact, Zarbon didn't even need Dodoria, he defeated Vegeta all by himself. And, despite this, Freeza still called the Ginyu force because he still felt it was prudent.
The difference here is Freeza already thinks his mechanization has made him powerful enough to take Goku himself. You're too fixated on his lack of training to look at the big picture.
You think I'm fixated on his lack of training but that's not true at all. I know what Freeza wanted: to beat Goku in combat and kill him. The course of action with the greatest chance of success in achieving this goal to Freeza's knowledge is to train for a bit. Yet, he chose not to. That seems stupid, but maybe there's a reason why his choice might be perfectly understandable and not stupid? Let's see, Freeza had previously been portrayed as calculating and careful... and, this time around, Freeza is not in the heat of battle and he has all the time in the world to think about what to do... So, no, I can see no reason for why it might be understandable. So, yeah, I think it was stupid.

The only big picture here is that Freeza could have ensured that he would beat and kill Goku with a bit of training and become hundreds of times more powerful. The only one stupid enough to be fixated and that refused to see this big picture, even though he knew he could improve by that much with a bit of training, was Freeza.
Freeza admitted that he was weaker upon resurrection, so he wouldn't be able to get his revenge right away. The idea of training only became a thought when he learned how much more powerful Goku had become since he's been gone. Knowing all of that, it isn't surprising that training would be the furthest thing from his mind when he was rebuilt with more power.
After what happened on Namek, and after what happened on Earth, and after being dead for decades Freeza almost didn't use the best option he had to beat Goku again? How does that make him look any less stupid?
You know what would've guaranteed an even swifter victory? Destroying the earth from space, which was suggested by Cold. Was he stupid for not doing that? Opting not to train doesn't add a blemish to the characterization of Freeza because he was never infallible to begin with.
I've already responded to that.
Last edited by rereboy on Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:26 pm

[quote="Lord Beerus

In that scenario it's self explanatory....kaioken x2 DOUBLEs your power. If you DOUBLE your power to EQUAL somebody then clearly you are half there power. It's common sense. I don't get how you find that as not a fact. It's a perfect example of what I said accept I made a scenario instead to remove potential bias you may have. Then again I used Beerus so IDK if that offended you.[/quote]
What bias? Goku states that fusion wouldn't make any difference against Beerus in Battle Of Gods and Super. And when he mentioned that, he was very most likely referring to both Vegetto and Gogeta since his only instance of actually fusing with someone was with Vegeta using the Potara earrings and he also knows about the Fusion Dance. And that when he fought Beerus for the first time who was practically uses less than 1% of his power and he wrecked him. So whether you like it or not, it's heavily implied in Battle Of Gods and Dragon Ball Super, ~1% Beerus >>>>> Vegetto/Gogeta.[/quote]


This is what I mean. You say beerus 1%>>>>Vegito. Over hyping him is killing him like Broly's over hype killed him in fan's eyes.

Weather you like it or not, beerus needed 10% to beat a TIRED and DAMAGED mid bu saga ssj2 vegeta, no way 1% can beat vegito from BOG XD GT characters roflstomp him.
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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:47 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:This is what I mean. You say beerus 1%>>>>Vegito. Over hyping him is killing him like Broly's over hype killed him in fan's eyes.

Weather you like it or not, beerus needed 10% to beat a TIRED and DAMAGED mid bu saga ssj2 vegeta, no way 1% can beat vegito from BOG XD GT characters roflstomp him.
I'm not overhyping anything. That is what is literally stated in the movie and the show. As absurd as it may sound, Raging SSJ2 Vegeta is displayed as stronger than Vegetto and Gogeta. That's just simply how it is. Unless you want to willfully ignore what it stated in the Battle Of Gods and Dragon Ball Super.

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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:29 pm

He's not stupid for wanting to be better than Goku in a fight. That is fine, it's just a goal and it's not a stupid goal. Heck, it's more or less the goal of most of the cast. However, since Freeza had a pretty sure way to actually become better than him in a fight that was much better than any other option he had, and he intentionally didn't use it purely out of laziness... now that is being stupid.

A simple miscalculation would be something like not applying enough force for Namek to immediately explode, like Freeza actually did when he was on Namek. That's a miscalculation. Freeza's choice in not training is much more than that.
Freeza replied to the idea of training with an additional Kienzan once it was suggested by Goku after he already lost. Him deciding not to train after receiving an additional power-up and help from another powerful being is staying true to the character. He admitted that he's never "felt a need" to train, so it's more or less just Freeza being Freeza.
Like stated, Freeza had a pretty sure way to beat Goku and be the strongest.
So was his mechanization. That power-up gave him a reason to ignore the idea of training. Freeza being weaker upon resurrection and knowing that his foe defeated Majin Boo was what convinced him to train. Getting vengeance was something he was thinking about before he even decided he was going to spend a few months training. It's quite clear that training is not something that just happens to enter his mind.
He intentionally chose to not use that option out of laziness.
This accurately sums up Freeza in general. You're the one trying to pretend he's infallible.
That's being stupid. And lazy.
Lazy, not stupid. Goku giving Freeza a chance to leave the world is stupid. He even admitted to Trunks that he was stupid for sparing Freeza back on namek. Freeza not training his Golden form is hardly any different than Freeza believing his Mecha powers alone were enough to change the outcome.
Not at all. Freeza attacked Goku on Namek when Goku was letting him go. Do you see me complaining about that? No, because Freeza not being calculating and careful after he had just lost and been humiliated (and while he was still in the heat of battle) is perfectly understandable since he is also pretty arrogant.
Arrogance ties in with him believing his mechanization is enough for him to believe he's the strongest in the universe again. Freeza's never felt the need to train, so he never did. Not stupid--it's just what the character is about.
However, after Freeza was put back together, Freeza was no longer in the heat of battle and he had all the time in the world to reflect and think on what to do. In those circumstances it's no longer understandable for Freeza to not be not even a little bit calculating or careful and not choose the best way to make sure he beats Goku in combat.
Freeza ultimately did the same thing back then that he did in RoF. If he took time to tune-up his Golden form, he wouldn't have lost. Instead, he decides to go to earth without even bothering to see the glaring weaknesses it had. That was the reason why he lost....again.

You can get on Freeza for not training after acquiring his Mecha power-up, but you can also get on Freeza for being too lazy to eliminate his weakness. The similarities between the two? Freeza gained incredible power and immediately wanted to test it out. His mechanization allowed him to believe he had all the power he needed to win, and the same applies to his Golden form. That's the main point. His characterization is fine and in no way different.
"Not well thought out" is how we can describe most of the actions that are stupid. And like I said above, blowing up the Earth would only make sense if he wanted to just kill Goku, not if he wanted to beat him. And he wanted to beat him.
It being stupid is just your opinion, though. Freeza was told he'd only need to regain his stamina and learn some new techniques by the guy who bested him. That alone implies their powers weren't very different. He gets a huge power-up and thinks that, along with King Cold, would be more than enough to handle Goku. Not raising his power to overkill levels isn't stupidity in the slightest.
If that was his only option, it wouldn't be stupid. But he had a much better one. He chose against it out of laziness. That's what makes it stupid.
You're looking at Freeza from a a very black and white standpoint rather than accepting that the character doesn't always make the right decisions. Mecha Freeza was regarded as a "demon of vengeance" upon being rebuilt, so we know for a fact that it was an obsession of his. The additional power-up made the decision to go to earth even easier. That's really all there is to it. Nothing about Freeza being stupid, or his characterization being out of place, which is really just your opinion.

Know what would be out of character? Freeza acquired a huge power-up, the additional help of King Cold, and still feeling a need to train when he already believes he's stronger than Goku.
And he was right. They told Freeza about Vegeta's power level and Freeza figured that it wasn't enough to take them both out at the same time. In fact, Zarbon didn't even need Dodoria, he defeated Vegeta all by himself. And, despite this, Freeza still called the Ginyu force because he still felt it was prudent.
Because he wanted scouters and wanted them to interrogate Vegeta to find the balls. All of those things could've easily been done by him without calling the Ginyu, but he didn't want to do it. Looks like more laziness for Freeza.
You think I'm fixated on his lack of training but that's not true at all. I know what Freeza wanted: to beat Goku in combat and kill him. The course of action with the greatest chance of success in achieving this goal to Freeza's knowledge is to train for a bit. Yet, he chose not to. That seems stupid, but maybe there's a reason why his choice might be perfectly understandable and not stupid?
Yeah, except declining the option containing "the greatest chance of success" is in no way synonymous with being stupid; especially when there were other options on the table. Also, another thing you're seemingly ignoring is that Freeza wasn't even thinking about training until after he realized he was weaker....and that Goku defeated Boo. Freeza

Let's see, Freeza had previously been portrayed as calculating and careful... and this time around Freeza is not in the heat of battle and he has all the time on the world to think about what to do... So, no, I can see no reason for why it might be understandable. So, yeah, I think it was stupid.
The only big picture here is that Freeza could have ensured that he would beat and kill Goku with a bit of training and become hundreds of times more powerful. The only one stupid enough to be fixated and that refused to see this big picture, even though he knew he could improve by that much with a bit of training, was Freeza.
Misjudgment of the situation makes more sense in this context than stupid. The idea of training was never on his mind, so to say he was already aware of what he could do with his dormant power is an assumption.
After what happened on Namek, and after what happened on Earth, and after being dead for decades Freeza almost didn't use the best option he had to beat Goku again? How does that make him look any less stupid?
In this instance, I gotta admit that it's really stupid he only considered training after realizing he wasn't as powerful as before. This is pure stupidity. It's almost like he expected Goku to stay the same, but then he admits he expected Goku to be more powerful and says he'll have to just get stronger as well. Weird.
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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by rereboy » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:44 pm

Like I stated, him not being careful and calculating minutes after being defeated and still in the heat of battle is understandable. But when he has all the time in the world to think and is not in the heat of battle is not.

You haven't stated anything I haven't responded already so I wont bother you by repeating myself.

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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:47 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:This is what I mean. You say beerus 1%>>>>Vegito. Over hyping him is killing him like Broly's over hype killed him in fan's eyes.

Weather you like it or not, beerus needed 10% to beat a TIRED and DAMAGED mid bu saga ssj2 vegeta, no way 1% can beat vegito from BOG XD GT characters roflstomp him.
I'm not overhyping anything. That is what is literally stated in the movie and the show. As absurd as it may sound, Raging SSJ2 Vegeta is displayed as stronger than Vegetto and Gogeta. That's just simply how it is. Unless you want to willfully ignore what it stated in the Battle Of Gods and Dragon Ball Super.

When in dragonball super or even the film did they Say Beerus at 1% is above vegito? Seriously.
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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:03 pm

rereboy wrote:Like I stated, him not being careful and calculating minutes after being defeated and still in the heat of battle is understandable. But when he has all the time in the world to think and is not in the heat of battle is not.

You haven't stated anything I haven't responded already so I wont bother you by repeating myself.
I've shown that both Freeza from back then (not training) and Freeza of Super/RoF (not training his form) have made similar mistakes that costed them the battle in both situations stemming from laziness. You're just choosing to give more focus to the former for some reason. Either way, Freeza in Super/RoF is the same Freeza from the Z era. He's depicted no differently in any of them.
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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:12 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:This is what I mean. You say beerus 1%>>>>Vegito. Over hyping him is killing him like Broly's over hype killed him in fan's eyes.

Weather you like it or not, beerus needed 10% to beat a TIRED and DAMAGED mid bu saga ssj2 vegeta, no way 1% can beat vegito from BOG XD GT characters roflstomp him.
I'm not overhyping anything. That is what is literally stated in the movie and the show. As absurd as it may sound, Raging SSJ2 Vegeta is displayed as stronger than Vegetto and Gogeta. That's just simply how it is. Unless you want to willfully ignore what it stated in the Battle Of Gods and Dragon Ball Super.

When in dragonball super or even the film did they Say Beerus at 1% is above vegito? Seriously.
Well, it was certainly way less than the ~10% Beerus needed to absolutely no sell Raging SSJ2 Vegeta's assault. Beerus himself stated he had to much more power to withstand Raging SSJ2 Vegeta than he had to use to effortlessly beat SSJ3 Goku.

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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:15 am

rereboy wrote:
Sure, but Freeza destroyed the saiyans when they started to get a little powerful and even called the Ginyu force when even Zarbon thought that there was no need. Meaning that, despite his enormous strength and arrogance, Freeza was also calculating and careful. Elements that are completely forgotten in Super/ROF.
Well considering FNF retconed Freeza's knowledge of Buu and Beerus, why would Freeza just ignore them knowing they were leagues stronger than him? You would think he would be terrified of them if he warned never to fight them while he was alive. As much of a plot-hole that retcon is (How would King Cold know about Buu that prexisted him?) If Buu was also just a legend by that time, why would Freeza not care? Him also terrified of Beerus gave him no motive to want to make sure he couldn't be ambushed by him? Smh. Him not ever training after that long is just hard to rationalize if he knew at least 3 people stronger than him. A super saiyan would be nothing compared to Beerus and Buu.
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Re: Freeza is currently the strongest villain in Dragon Ball

Post by rereboy » Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:07 am

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:You're just choosing to give more focus to the former for some reason.
I'm focusing on what would have been the best and most intelligent way for Freeza to achieve his goals with the knowledge he had, while also paying attention to anything that might make the fact that he didn't choose this way understandable. My conclusion is what I've already stated.
Either way, Freeza in Super/RoF is the same Freeza from the Z era. He's depicted no differently in any of them.
That's incorrect.

Before the plot of ROF/Super, Freeza, like you stated, only made a miscalculation regarding his new power being able to beat Goku.

After the plot of ROF/Super, Freeza not only did a miscalculation regarding being able to beat Goku, he also ignored the fact that he could train a bit and become hundreds of times stronger and be way more certain that he would beat Goku.

That notion simply doesn't exist without ROF/Super. The plot of ROF/Super is what introduces the idea that Freeza knew this during the Z era.

If we ignore the plot of ROF/Super, there is nothing telling us that Freeza knew, when he attacked Earth, that he could have become hundreds of times stronger with a bit of training.

So, there is a clear distinction between Freeza before the plot of ROF/Super and Freeza after the plot of ROF/Freeza. You are failing to notice this.

In fact, imagine that what happened in ROF/Super is the following:

- Freeza wakes up and he wants to fight Goku right away, but he is informed that Goku is way stronger than before.
- In light of this, Freeza gets frustrated and starts to think on what to do and, while he is thinking, his scientist soldiers inform him that they have a suggestion.
- They have been conducting several genetic studies on samples that they had from Freeza and they are convinced that there is so much potential in them that Freeza has only tapped the surface and that with training to stimulate that potential Freeza could become much stronger.
- Initially, Freeza becomes mad after hearing this, saying that training is for inferior races and that no one in his family has ever done something so ridiculous, but the scientists tell him that according to their calculations Freeza would have become hundreds, if not thousands of times stronger.
- Freeza hears this and, slowly, a smile creeps upon his face.

If this had been what had happened in ROF/Super, Freeza would not have been stupid to attack Earth right away after Namek because the idea of training would have been alien to him and he would have no idea that he could have improved so much by training. His choice to attack Earth would have remained as a miscalculation just like it was before ROF/Super existed.

But this wasn't what happened in ROF/Super. Instead, ROF/Super says that Freeza was aware of this all along, including when he chose to attack Earth after Namek, and just purposely ignored it.

I'm sorry, but, to me, that's stupid all around. It's a stupid choice for Freeza to make considering what he knew and a stupid choice for the ROF/Super's writing. They made Freeza look stupider than he was before what they introduced and they completely ignored that Freeza has also been portrayed as calculating and prudent.

You keep insisting that it's a miscalculation but you are ignoring that the miscalculation is simply him being wrong about his increase in power being enough to defeat Goku, while what is stupid is him choosing to ignore a way to still definitely win against Goku in case things don't go as he imagined.
SingleFringe&Sparks wrote: Well considering FNF retconed Freeza's knowledge of Buu and Beerus, why would Freeza just ignore them knowing they were leagues stronger than him? You would think he would be terrified of them if he warned never to fight them while he was alive. As much of a plot-hole that retcon is (How would King Cold know about Buu that prexisted him?) If Buu was also just a legend by that time, why would Freeza not care? Him also terrified of Beerus gave him no motive to want to make sure he couldn't be ambushed by him? Smh. Him not ever training after that long is just hard to rationalize if he knew at least 3 people stronger than him. A super saiyan would be nothing compared to Beerus and Buu.
Cold warned Freeza to keep away from them. Due to that, and due to the fact that he had no way to even have an estimate on exactly how strong they were, Freeza most likely thought that he could never become as strong as Buu and Beerus who were special beings (the god of destruction and a god slayer) even if he did train as much as he could. So, he saw no point in it. And besides, there were no reason for think that those beings would one day be his enemies.

Regarding Goku, its completely different since ROF/Super makes it clear that Freeza believes that he can surpass a Goku that has improved for decades after defeating Freeza with a bit of training and that he has always known that.

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