When did liking the dub become acceptable?

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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:15 am

Hellspawn28 wrote:I don't know why didn't do uncut sub title VHS tapes back then? Companies like ADV, U.S. Renditions and Animeigo would do sub and dub VHS tapes. People seem don't know that back then that you would have buy subs before the rise of the DVD market.
Like TripleRach said, back then (and largely even now), FUNimation would never have done a sub-only release. They would not have deemed it cost-effective because we weren't the audience they were going for anyway. Perhaps it's difficult to realize now, but at the time, FUNimation was not mentioned in the same breath as Pioneer or other "serious" anime companies. They were mentioned in the same breath as 4Kids and DiC. It was only the advent of DVD that made it work for them because they wouldn't have to print two separate releases. They could just slap the Japanese audio on the same release, and it's a win-win.
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by ShadowBardock89 » Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:22 am

Hellspawn28 wrote:I don't know why didn't do uncut sub title VHS tapes back then? Companies like ADV, U.S. Renditions and Animeigo would do sub and dub VHS tapes. People seem don't know that back then that you would have buy subs before the rise of the DVD market.
I was 10 in 1999, so I can't relate to you that much other than watching fansubs of One Piece to get caught up before FUNimation got the licensing rights.
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by Sun Wukong » Mon Feb 01, 2016 1:02 pm

I always thought it was the opposite. I mean for non Japanese speakers. Wouldn't they prefer the English dub over the Japanese dub? I mean more speak English than Japanese.

It wasn't until I started going on forums & specifically forums catered to a more pro-Japanese dub sites like this or MAL that I found individuals that actually prefer the native dub over the Funimation Dub or other English dubs.


From my personal anecdotal observations I would have to say the majority of DB fans casual or not prefer English dubs over the Japanese dub. But there is a vocal minority that strongly prefers the native dub over the ENG dub.
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by TripleRach » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:22 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:I don't know why didn't do uncut sub title VHS tapes back then? Companies like ADV, U.S. Renditions and Animeigo would do sub and dub VHS tapes. People seem don't know that back then that you would have buy subs before the rise of the DVD market.
I feel like Pioneer might have done subbed VHS releases for the first three DBZ movies, but I can't find any confirmation in the home video guide. I suppose it's possible Pioneer could have done subbed tapes for episodes 1-67, but they obviously never did. The closest we got were subbed clips of episodes 1 and 9 as an extra on one of the movie DVDs, with footage that was missing from the dub at the time. We may never know why Pioneer didn't release subbed TV episodes. I don't think we even know the reason FUNimation stopped working with them for home video.

But FUNimation themselves? Like Gaffer Tape was saying, they were complete amateurs back then. Their first time ever subtitling anything was the "Captain Ginyu - Assault" DVD, and IIRC that was partly due to Steve Simmons and other members of the fandom approaching them with the idea. Going back to do subbed VHS as well required different analog technology, and they had a lot less to lose by simply doing bilingual DVDs instead.
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by LuckyCat » Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:31 pm

Sun Wukong wrote:I mean for non Japanese speakers. Wouldn't they prefer the English dub over the Japanese dub? I mean more speak English than Japanese.
Sometimes the original just sounds better, even if it means you need to read subtitles. If you look at a lot of US film releases overseas for example, a lot of times they'll keep the English and just add local subtitles because good acting performances aren't easy to replicate. And good acting performances do transcend language.
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:10 pm

TripleRach wrote: I feel like Pioneer might have done subbed VHS releases for the first three DBZ movies, but I can't find any confirmation in the home video guide.
They did. Their VHS release of Movie 3 was the first Dragon Ball media I ever saw complete in Japanese.

Gen Fukunaga did claim (and I believe TheBlackPaladin has already mentioned it in this thread) that Toei would not let them release the episodes for the reason that the Japanese did not have access to the TV series on home video. I mean, I certainly don't think FUNimation would have cared to at the time even if they had been allowed, and it was probably the demand from fans like us that caused them to even attempt to get permission. But that would make sense that Pioneer put out subtitled VHS releases of the movies, since those did already exist on Japanese home video.
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by Super Sonic » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:25 pm

All three of them were on subbed vhs. Remember seeing them in Suncoast back in the day. And they like mostly every other subbed anime vhs was $25 a piece.
Gaffer Tape wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:I don't know why didn't do uncut sub title VHS tapes back then? Companies like ADV, U.S. Renditions and Animeigo would do sub and dub VHS tapes. People seem don't know that back then that you would have buy subs before the rise of the DVD market.
Like TripleRach said, back then (and largely even now), FUNimation would never have done a sub-only release. They would not have deemed it cost-effective because we weren't the audience they were going for anyway. Perhaps it's difficult to realize now, but at the time, FUNimation was not mentioned in the same breath as Pioneer or other "serious" anime companies. They were mentioned in the same breath as 4Kids and DiC. It was only the advent of DVD that made it work for them because they wouldn't have to print two separate releases. They could just slap the Japanese audio on the same release, and it's a win-win.
Well back then 4Kids really only had the first season of Pokémon and Dic was still known more for the great 80s and early 90s cartoons they did. Heck, say what you will about the old dub of Sailor Moon, but aside from being known as a gateway anime, it was also one of the first girl cartoons on US tv it was ok for boys to watch in awhile. Now be honest my fellow American males, between 1987/1988 and 1995, the number of girl cartoons you would admit to watching of your own accord was kinda low to non-existent.

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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:12 pm

Well, I meant specifically more along the lines of "not thought of as a legitimate anime dubbing company." Like you said, DiC is more known for its own shows, many of which I love, and Dragon Ball was FUNimation's only anime property at the time. So, yeah, their products in that arena were made to fit in with the American cartoons for children, as opposed to the Pioneers and Vizs of the world, who were the "real" anime companies.
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:41 pm

Comparing (old) FUNimation to 4Kids is very appropriate. FUNimation has since redeemed themselves, and they are now a great dubbing/distribution company, but back in the day, their dub of Dragon Ball Z was sort of the 4Kids One Piece dub of its time. In fact, I read that when FUNimation announced that they acquired Fullmetal Alchemist, the general reaction online was one of dread, because people thought that it was going to be handled with the same lack of regard to the original version that DBZ was handled with.

Speaking of irony and One Piece, though...

FUNimation would eventually get One Piece, but as we know, 4Kids got it first. However, FUNimation was thisdamnclose to getting it first. They registered a domain name for a One Piece website and even produced a "test episode" (with Eric Vale as Luffy and Chris Sabat as Helmeppo). However, for reasons that are still not entirely clear, it ended up going to 4Kids instead. However, for a brief period of time there were a lot of signs pointing to FUNimation dubbing it, and the reaction was, once again, one of dread. People thought that the music was going to be changed, that the dialogue would be horribly adapted...and while I cannot find it, somebody interviewed an animator for the final episode of GT and asked them their thoughts on FUNimation's acquisition of One Piece, and their response was (not word-for-word, but essentially), "I honestly think that if Mr. Oda knew about what kind of company FUNimation was, he would have pulled out of the deal." My how times changed...we went from dreading FUNimation's acquisition of One Piece to celebrating their saving of it.
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by NitroEX » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:59 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:Fact of the matter is, I find the Digimon US soundtrack bland, cheesy as **** (hey digimon, hey digimon, champions of the boys and girls!), and out of place a lot (Hey Digimon playing while Myotismon is getting shot by an arrow). But man... the Japanese OST is awesome (Butterfly, Braveheart, Break Up, etc. <3).
I understand that Saban's Digimon didn't always have great music placement but even so I can't really fault them too much for it because at the end of the day they were working within the standards for western kid's TV and Digimon was likely aimed at a younger audience than DBZ was. It's pretty obvious to me that moments like the one you described were done in that way deliberately in order to soften violent scenes for children and change an otherwise horrific or violent scene into a cheerful or triumphant one. As someone who watched a few Saban dubs growing up I noticed this a lot and figured it was most likely a strategy for them to get a show past censors, sort of like using comedy to get away with violence. Obviously I don't agree with censoring kids TV like this but I can understand the thought process behind it which makes me more forgiving of it.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not saying the US version's music is superior to the Japanese, I'm just saying the music in Saban's version is far from being crap and in fact is objectively good in many measurable ways. I'm mainly trying to point out how people's perception of a TV show can negatively (or positively in Faulconer's case) colour their opinion of and assign worth to music despite it's objective quality saying otherwise.
fadeddreams5 wrote: I mean, naturally the success of the show gave the soundtrack exposure. If it had been part of some other unknown cartoon, not many people would even know it exists. But I wouldn't say people like it because of the nostalgia either. I listen to that soundtrack, occasionally, because I simply like it. So many people have spent hours making covers on Youtube or creating original electronic pieces similar to that OST because they're passionate about it. My friends who are casual fans have also been caught listening to Vegeta's themes. One friend can't bare to watch Kai because it doesn't have Faulconer. There are people out there who were more fans of the music than the actual show!
That's all true but again, I still think it largely comes down to nostalgia and it being "DBZ music" to many people. At the end of the day it's impossible to discern whether you would have "simply liked it" without DBZ's influence.
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:11 am

TripleRach wrote:Most of the older generation of "subbies" seemed to lose interest in the franchise and move on with their lives.
And in some cases, lose interest and move on entirely from Japanese anime as a whole, though that feeds into an even broader (and vastly more depressing) topic that spans outside just DB itself.

Otherwise, Rachel's original post on the first page is pretty spot on. If I had to pin it down to an exact year, I'd say somewhere in the general ballpark between 2003 and 2005-ish is where you began to see the older voices within DB fandom rapidly start dropping out of sight entirely (discounting the Kanz forum's first year and change or so where it functioned as the last genuine gasp of a focal point for a few of the old timers).
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by EXBadguy » Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:22 am

I find it crazy that some people are comparing 4kids to Funimation. Granted, some of the Funimtion voice acting in the 90s were cheesy and ain't that different from 4kids(No matter how nostalgic they were), but still, did Funimation made the Z warriors sing the Stars Bangled Banner, "twinkling up" explosions, or change the food ramen bowls to bowls of cereal?

I even remember one time reading an article about a former 4kids actor saying that censorship of Japanese games in the US is "LOCALIZATION"! :lol:
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:24 am

EXBadguy wrote:but still, did Funimation made the Z warriors sing the Stars Bangled Banner, "twinkling up" explosions, or change the food ramen bowls to bowls of cereal?
No, but Piccolo quoted the story of David and Goliath, they covered punches with giant colored star effects, and changed beer to frosty water.

So... yes!
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by EXBadguy » Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:39 am

VegettoEX wrote:
EXBadguy wrote:but still, did Funimation made the Z warriors sing the Stars Bangled Banner, "twinkling up" explosions, or change the food ramen bowls to bowls of cereal?
No, but Piccolo quoted the story of David and Goliath, they covered punches with giant colored star effects and changed beer to frosty water.
'Kay, the bible references and the star effects are unacceptable, but the frosty water seems reasonable. I'm not against censorship as a whole, and I wouldn't care if 4kids did the same thing. What I mean is that 4kids localized the shit outta anime than Funimation ever did. They erased at least 85% of Japanese culture references and switched it. Like if Goku ate a rice donut, 4kids would change it into a Philly Cheesteak. I've never seen Funi do that.
Akira Toriyama wrote:If anyone. ANYONE AT TOEI! Makes a movie about old and weak major villains returning, or making recolored versions of Super Saiyan, I'ma come to yo company and evict you from doing Dragon Ball ever again! Only I do those things, because people love me, and they despise you....derp!
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by VejituhTheWarriorGuy » Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:41 am

TheBlackPaladin wrote:Comparing (old) FUNimation to 4Kids is very appropriate. FUNimation has since redeemed themselves, and they are now a great dubbing/distribution company, but back in the day, their dub of Dragon Ball Z was sort of the 4Kids One Piece dub of its time. In fact, I read that when FUNimation announced that they acquired Fullmetal Alchemist, the general reaction online was one of dread, because people thought that it was going to be handled with the same lack of regard to the original version that DBZ was handled with.

Speaking of irony and One Piece, though...

FUNimation would eventually get One Piece, but as we know, 4Kids got it first. However, FUNimation was thisdamnclose to getting it first. They registered a domain name for a One Piece website and even produced a "test episode" (with Eric Vale as Luffy and Chris Sabat as Helmeppo). However, for reasons that are still not entirely clear, it ended up going to 4Kids instead. However, for a brief period of time there were a lot of signs pointing to FUNimation dubbing it, and the reaction was, once again, one of dread. People thought that the music was going to be changed, that the dialogue would be horribly adapted...and while I cannot find it, somebody interviewed an animator for the final episode of GT and asked them their thoughts on FUNimation's acquisition of One Piece, and their response was (not word-for-word, but essentially), "I honestly think that if Mr. Oda knew about what kind of company FUNimation was, he would have pulled out of the deal." My how times changed...we went from dreading FUNimation's acquisition of One Piece to celebrating their saving of it.
That's some extremely interesting info regarding One Piece. As a huge fan of the series, I love hearing about its history in regards to coming to North America. If you ever find that interview, please post it.
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:44 am

EXBadguy wrote: Like if Goku ate a rice donut, 4kids would change it into a Philly Cheesteak. I've never seen Funi do that.
That's because there's not really a whole lot of Japanese-specific cultural stuff in Dragon Ball in the grand scheme of things. You can't edit out what isn't there to begin with.

So they did their own shit with original jokes and non sequitur references, instead.
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by EXBadguy » Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:58 am

VegettoEX wrote:
EXBadguy wrote: Like if Goku ate a rice donut, 4kids would change it into a Philly Cheesteak. I've never seen Funi do that.
That's because there's not really a whole lot of Japanese-specific cultural stuff in Dragon Ball in the grand scheme of things. You can't edit out what isn't there to begin with.

So they did their own shit with original jokes and non sequitur references, instead.
Oh I known Funimation did their own shit, buuut at least they didn't change the bowls that had asian food in them :mrgreen: .

And they didn't even "localized" other anime they worked in the late 90s/early 2000s as much.
Akira Toriyama wrote:If anyone. ANYONE AT TOEI! Makes a movie about old and weak major villains returning, or making recolored versions of Super Saiyan, I'ma come to yo company and evict you from doing Dragon Ball ever again! Only I do those things, because people love me, and they despise you....derp!
Marco Polo wrote:Goku Black is a fan of DBZ who hates Super and has taken the form of a younger Goku (thinner shape, softer hair) to avenge the original series by destroying the new.

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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:01 am

There was a bizarre instance where they painted out a sign that said "OCCUPIED" in Japanese. So, yeah, FUNimation wasn't above painting out Japanese things.
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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:54 am

VejituhTheWarriorGuy wrote:
TheBlackPaladin wrote:Comparing (old) FUNimation to 4Kids is very appropriate. FUNimation has since redeemed themselves, and they are now a great dubbing/distribution company, but back in the day, their dub of Dragon Ball Z was sort of the 4Kids One Piece dub of its time. In fact, I read that when FUNimation announced that they acquired Fullmetal Alchemist, the general reaction online was one of dread, because people thought that it was going to be handled with the same lack of regard to the original version that DBZ was handled with.

Speaking of irony and One Piece, though...

FUNimation would eventually get One Piece, but as we know, 4Kids got it first. However, FUNimation was thisdamnclose to getting it first. They registered a domain name for a One Piece website and even produced a "test episode" (with Eric Vale as Luffy and Chris Sabat as Helmeppo). However, for reasons that are still not entirely clear, it ended up going to 4Kids instead. However, for a brief period of time there were a lot of signs pointing to FUNimation dubbing it, and the reaction was, once again, one of dread. People thought that the music was going to be changed, that the dialogue would be horribly adapted...and while I cannot find it, somebody interviewed an animator for the final episode of GT and asked them their thoughts on FUNimation's acquisition of One Piece, and their response was (not word-for-word, but essentially), "I honestly think that if Mr. Oda knew about what kind of company FUNimation was, he would have pulled out of the deal." My how times changed...we went from dreading FUNimation's acquisition of One Piece to celebrating their saving of it.
That's some extremely interesting info regarding One Piece. As a huge fan of the series, I love hearing about its history in regards to coming to North America. If you ever find that interview, please post it.
Took a little bit of detective work, but I found it. Here's the interview!

Keep in mind, all references to One Piece were made at a time when 4Kids hadn't gotten it yet, and it looked like FUNimation was going to get it.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: When did liking the dub become acceptable?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:57 am

EXBadguy wrote:I'm not against censorship as a whole
Why not? I guess it might depend on what you mean by censorship because there's a difference between the government telling people what they can and can't broadcast vs. what an individual or company says you can and can't broadcast.
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