Dragonball novels

[lost in thought]

Considering how General Blue turned out, if any of the main cast was homosexual, there would be no question.

He was very flambouyant, yes, but again-- mannerism. Further, it was suggested (as a subtle jab, yes) that he was homosexual, but that's where it left. It neither proves nor disproves HIS preferences; but it also shows that in one short, subtle jab made, it is direct, but without any definitive proof to him -being- homosexual.

The outcome of that just showed that he was powerful, had anger issues, egomaniacle, and flambouyant in nature. Further, we don't see any minor jabs like that after.

[Jerseymilk]

Please, lets not be homophobic here.

So now I'm homphobic am I? I see. That's quite ironic to those that know me, considering one of my best friends is gay and I have many other good friends that are bi and gay.

DBZ -is- a shounen manga. That means -their sex lives are not explored- that means, gay, bi, straight, whatever! It's fine.

Ya, because we all know that what all these young boys were doing while they read DB every week was ponder about the "apparent open-ended state" of the character's sexuality. That's totally the reason why their sex lives aren't explored, so it can be open for little kids to interpret! The reason their sex lives aren't explored and left open is because it's aimed at young boys who really don't care about that stuff. Add on the fact that it's not a manga for adults, hence no sex since last I checked, that was an adult subject.

There's plenty enough 'yaoi hinting' in DBZ for a good sized fanbase, just as there is enough for het!

Is there really? You obviously didn't pay attention to my statement about this before so I'll reiterate it. It was Akira Toriyama that created DB. Not Junichi Sato. Not Naoko Takeuchi. Toriyama is a "straight shooting", "plain as day" male who likes Jackie Chan movies. Trust me on this, he wasn't thinking up gay subtexts in his head for his lead characters.

So don't go writing off an entire section of fanfic as 'bastardization', that's incredibly offensive and unbased.

I asked this before. Why are you getting so mad at that observation? Is it really that big a threat to you to hear the plain truth? I'm not saying you guys are bad or putting it down. I've been telling it like it is. While we're at it, since you think it's "unbased", let's look at the definition of "bastardize" right now shall we?

From Merriam-Webster's dictionary:
Main Entry: bas·tard·ize
Pronunciation: 'bas-t&r-"dIz
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -ized; -iz·ing
1 : to reduce from a higher to a lower state or condition : DEBASE
2 : to declare or prove to be a bastard
3 : to modify especially by introducing discordant or disparate elements
- bas·tard·i·za·tion /"bas-t&r-d&-'zA-sh&n/ noun

So according to definition number 3, my statement holds weight. I'd say making a straight character gay qualifies as a "discordant or disparate element".

I will reitterate, the most ROMANCE you get in DBZ, is ChiChi whining about her husband being off somewhere training!

Oh goodness not at all! There's that tender scene when Goku says goodbye to Chi-Chi after he recovers from the heart virus. Yamucha's and Buruma's sweet little moments when they first meet and get together.
Not to mention the ones between Goku and Chi-Chi. Kuririn getting all tongue-tied around #18 and be bombarded with images of her face and thinking about how beautiful she is. The moment where Videl openly admits her feelings for Gohan, though not to his face, but as he's flying away with Kibito. Very sweet that. Also her tear-filled reunion with him when he returns from the dead. There's tons right there.

So no, you're not right. There is no 'solid fact' to pull from of whether their bi, straight, whatever. If you want to say such stuff about people's works without even so much as glancing them, then you get me a SCAN or somesort from tha manga, where Vegeta states, 'Hi, I'm a totaly homophomic alien, I love Bulma and I would NEVER EVER BE GAY'.

I've read a lot of fan-fiction in my time. I never once stated that all slash fics were bad. As for some blatant statement coming from the character's mouths, we can just once again look at Toriyama for that. As I've been saying, the man is your Japanese version of the "average joe", drawing his machines and enjoying his cigarettes. He never intended his main characters in DB to be open to interpretation concerning their sexuality. Toriyama did indeed make some gay characters in DB, but do you notice something? There are obvious signs. The "Village People guy" is dressed like a leather boy and winks at Trunks. There are also much clearer allusions to General Blue being gay. You definitely don't get that with the Z Senshi and Co. So it's obvious Toriyama *does know* how to allude to a character's homosexuality and it's certainly easy to tell when he does. When Toriyama makes gay characters, he makes them obvious and also, unfortunately comedic. Though that is often the case with "gay" characters in lots of anime and mangas, but that's a different subject and it would get me off topic.

You're entitled to your opinion, but if you would care to be less offensive with it.

Once again I was not intending to offend. I was just calling things as I see them. This is why I tire of the anime fandom scene. It just gets way too caught up in itself and can't see the forest for the trees. -_-

[Nekoni]

Well, it's not less offensive as you've clarified your use of 'bastardize', because I honestly thought you meant it in the degratory term. And yes, I have homosexual friends too.

However, I will state that many, many gay people don't have eccentric personalities. And sexuality is -not- explored in DBZ. I never said it -should- be, I'm saying it's open, and thusly -any- way a fan would put it, be it het, or whatever, is just as far odd as any other option.

I, myself am straight... but would that mean every character I wrote would have to be forcefully interpretted as straight? Nope.

It is still insulting to classify all someone's works as 'bastardization', no matter what the terms, because a character whose canon self had no sexual exploration, because you have a different 'ideal' as to what it would be.

[Rocketman]

It is still insulting to classify all someone's works as 'bastardization', no matter what the terms, because a character whose canon self had no sexual exploration, because you have a different 'ideal' as to what it would be.

Like who? Goku, who's practically shown to have no sexual feelings? Vegeta, who has as a large part of his character growth his love for a woman?

[Ero-Sennin]

To actually dragging me from being a lurker to being active is something that doesn't happen too often but this topic, or at least the most recent posts in it have.

Normally I'd let Jers fight her own battles, which she most certainly has already, but to a) call someone a homophobe and b) actually think any of the characters in the DB main line up are possibly orientated towards their own gender in any way, is kinda idiotic.

As has been stated before one of Jers best friends is gay, which i'm sure he'd confirm if asked, but onto the more DBZ related part of this, even though it's been a few years since i've read or watched DBZ no two characters show any inclination towards it. Sticking to the only two characters who might show some form of male "love" would be Trunks and Goten, who are at the time too young to be ANYTHING sexual. Now i'll admit anime sometimes forgets this, but nowhere else in DB have they shown other wise.

So to summarise this in a short as possible way, Jers = Not Homophobic, DB characters = not homosexual.

I hope I made my point.

[Nekoni]

I believe you've not paid attention. He stated the 'meanings' of 'bastardization', he meant the third, I took it as the first. -that's- why I read him as homophobic, because 'bastarization' also means degredation, and calling someone degraded due to their sexual preference -would- be homophobic, if you can understand, -that- was a misunderstanding due to the multiple meanings of a word.

Ahem, don't start calling me and idiot. I'm starting to become rather infuriated, so don't make me start getting out my sexual psychology books. I think it's possible, with the characters -IN CHARACTER- to have different -sexual preferences- to which -nothing was explored in canon-

What -I- am saying is that it can go either way. What -you- all are saying is that it 100% can't, and I am inclined to disagree, greatly.

Now unless you have some actual solid evidence, I advise you drop the topics, because these are empty words.

[lost in thought]

Ahem, don't start calling me and idiot. I'm starting to become rather infuriated, so don't make me start getting out my sexual psychology books. I think it's possible, with the characters -IN CHARACTER- to have different -sexual preferences- to which -nothing was explored in canon-

No one cares about your psychology books, or your fancy two-dollar degree.

What -I- am saying is that it can go either way. What -you- all are saying is that it 100% can't, and I am inclined to disagree, greatly.

It can't go either way, and if you want to be 'right', you need to dig up cold facts yourself to support your claim that is is, because Jerseymilk (a SHE) dug right up enough to disprove you, and yet you don't get the idea.

You cannot draw upon 'considerations' within a character of a story without breaking the boundaries of that story, thus leaving it without any factual bearing short of perception, and it has been shown that there are no admittedly homosexual characters in DragonBall, and that the 'group' is what they are at face value, and nothing more.
Building upon this to develop your own personal theory (because that's what you have) is not grounds to say that "this is what it might be", it isn't anything that's documented in the works, and as such your consideration for a characters homosexuality is baseless at best.

Fan speculation (and your fangasm over this situation) holds no bond to the series as a whole, nor does 'considerations' for a partially ambiguous character have any tie to who the character is.

You can't draw your own conclusions and act like they're facts based on flambouyant nature, or, because you've never seen a character with a girl. It's ridiculous at best.

Now unless you have some actual solid evidence, I advise you drop the topics, because these are empty words.

Stop trying to act high and mighty with your illogical fallacies of perception. If I didn't know any better, you seem like a self-serving fan-girl. That doesn't work.

[Nekoni]

Don't you hear a word I say before INSULTING me?

I said it's plausible for characters to be homosexual, as there is no statements EITHER way.

Is a homosexual character such, a terrible, gut wrenching thing? I wouldn't put it past people here having an immediate fear of the concept, as even girls are afraid of being girly.

Do you know what makes people homosexual? Falling in love. Look at your country's divorce rates. Is it possible to fall in love with other people? Of course. Love knows no gender.

Homosexuality is just as viable and real as hetrosexuality. -NOTHING- seperates the two. It's a very -real- thing.

Whether it is in DBZ or not, was, -I WAS SAYING-, disputable. You can't catergoricaly state that a character can never, ever be gay, as it is a potential in -every- man or woman.

I'm not saying the characters are dead-bolt gay, no. I'm saying it's possible, just as it's posible for them to be straight or bi, as their sexuality is not explored. DBZ isn't a 'is he bi, straight, gay' story.

Oh, the DBZ characters don't look stereotypicaly gay? My GAY friends don't look stereotypicaly gay, it'd be ridiculous to expect to be able to judge everyone's sexuality at first glance.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Need I remind you that Dragon Ball is a manga, and therefore a character can't be gay unless he was written as a gay character, in the manga?

[Nekoni]

Need I remind you that Dragon Ball is a manga, and therefore a character can't be gay unless he was written as a gay character, in the manga?

Since when does a character have to be straight, unless otherwise stated.

I'm replying to no more, I've said all I would need to say. Saying any further truely is redundant; however I expect no further insults, as I expect people, no matter their age, to have some form of manners. There's nothing anyone can say to me that'll convince me otherwise, and there is likely nothing I can say to you that'll do the same. I'm off to pass my time at more pleasent activities.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

But that's the thing. We're shown that most characters have interest in the opposite sex (save a few characters, such as General Blue and Otoko Sukii), so...

[Nekoni]

Please talk to the others, I refuse to talk more. It's a waste of my time. You can otherwise research the topic of homosexuality, bisexuality and the likes.

[lost in thought]

Don't you hear a word I say before INSULTING me?

No, I don't hear you. Because this is the 'internet', neat thing actually, you type in text to other people, who respond in kind. Results may vary though.

Further, I've read every post you've made, and none of them have any sense to them. You've got to learn one way or the other, and being an overzealous fan such as yourself is a phase you're going to need to grow out of.

I said it's plausible for characters to be homosexual, as there is no statements EITHER way.

Not in DragonBall. Listen to our friend Chibi Mystic Gohan on this one.

Is a homosexual character such, a terrible, gut wrenching thing? I wouldn't put it past people here having an immediate fear of the concept, as even girls are afraid of being girly.

No, you'd be surprised what I -actually- think of homosexuals. But it just -isn't- in DragonBall that way, and no matter how much you want to theorize that there could be.

Do you know what makes people homosexual? Falling in love. Look at your country's divorce rates. Is it possible to fall in love with other people? Of course. Love knows no gender.

No it doesn't. Homosexuals are made when a person becomes attracted to their same sex, falling in love has nothing to do with it.

Homosexuality is just as viable and real as hetrosexuality. -NOTHING- seperates the two. It's a very -real- thing.

Of course it is, but not in DragonBall, unless otherwise stated by the mangaka, and attempting to infer it is an insult to his work.

Whether it is in DBZ or not, was, -I WAS SAYING-, disputable. You can't catergoricaly state that a character can never, ever be gay, as it is a potential in -every- man or woman.

Not in DragonBall.

I'm not saying the characters are dead-bolt gay, no. I'm saying it's possible, just as it's posible for them to be straight or bi, as their sexuality is not explored. DBZ isn't a 'is he bi, straight, gay' story.

It's all fan perception that gives that, they're straight until proven otherwise by the mangaka.

Oh, the DBZ characters don't look stereotypicaly gay? My GAY friends don't look stereotypicaly gay, it'd be ridiculous to expect to be able to judge everyone's sexuality at first glance.

Has nothing to do with stereotypes, thanks for bringing a new avenue of dislike into the discussion that was -not- mentioned previously.
I, nor anyone else, is judging homosexuals. We've stated countless times, that it just ISN'T in DragonBall, unless the mangaka says so; and he hasn't. Further, you ignore all of the points, to pursue your fangasm which has no BINDS to the series.

You're making ridiculous points.

By the by, if you're not going to continue the topic you discussed here, you could bring it to the chatroom, and discuss it civilly with us there. Maybe you will learn something, since the room HAS homosexual members, AND bi-sexual members.

[Nekoni]

Lost in thought, I suggested you cease insulting me. I suggest it pronto.

I said that I understand that no-one here is comprehending the topic, and thus I shall add no more, though no matter how much you insult me, it shall neither prove yourself right nor gain my respect for you.

-no respect at all-

I said I will cease to argue this point. YOU are NOT going to win, no matter how much you may wish to troll me. If I take what you have said, not as evidence, and you have taken what I said, not as evidence, then what point is there? You are saying NOTHING new, nor anything I would consider logical.

And you are neither prooving yourself to be better with your tone, and neglect to read my further posts.

Also, I decline your offer to 'take this out back', so to speek, as I refuse to waste my time, especialy arguing in some little IRC chatroom.

[Thanos6]

lost, I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.

My interpretation of your viewpoint:

We saw one definitively gay character, a Village People like stereotype; we saw one possibly gay character, a misogynistic narcissist. Otherwise, the characters' sexual preferences were either straight or unstated.

Therefore, a character who does not exhibit one of those traits is not gay, and no other forms of "gayness" exist in that world at all unless Toriyama says so.

Is that correct?

[Mr. Announcer]

Please, there's no need to get so angry about the the supposed sexual orientation of fictional characters. If it were a matter of homphobia or ignorance then maybe it would be worth arguing about but everyone here is pretty clearly accepting of gays and even if they aren't it isn't playing as a bias in this argument. Saying Gokuh and Vegeta could be gay is like saying you could be a big hairy wookie. I mean it's 'possible' but is it actually based on any evidence and does it actually have any meaning? No. Basically you have to judge the characters based on the authors intentions because despite how convincing some fan interpretations may be there is no higher more accurate source. If Mr. Toriyama wasn't thinking it, it was never there. You have to accept that these characters don't actually have minds of their own and can't develop such a trait independently of their author. And there you have it.

I see no reason for you to stop having fun with your own interpretation but you shouldn't take it so seriously as to argue it as a possible truth. It's not that big a deal.

[Thanos6]

If Mr. Toriyama wasn't thinking it, it was never there.

Um.

I'm an author myself. Comicbook stuff, like what DC and Marvel do.

I don't go into the sex lives of many of my lesser villains and supporting characters. Doesn't mean they don't have them.

[VegettoEX]

Nekoni: You do nothing but flip back and forth on what you're arguing. Your statements make little sense when put in the context of each other as a collective whole. You're defensive, and leave little room to actually have a conversation with. You're having a one-sided "argument", if you can even call it that.

I have a huge problem with the way you're acting in this and many other threads, and the way you're instigating other members. It's inappropriate, pointless, and not welcome on this forum. This is your first and final warning.

lost in thought: While you make valid and interesting points that others are clearly not latching on to, you're going a little overboard on the way you're presenting these views as time progresses throughout the thread. This, too, is not welcome.

Jerseymilk: It's unncessesary to go out of your way to prove things like not being homophobic. By looking for examples that you can give, you're just giving the instigator exactly what they're looking for.

Everyone: You should all know by now that the generic internet message board system of "long post consisting of quote-reply-quote-reply-quote-reply-quote-reply" gets noone anywhere nowhere fast. The only people reading your post is yourself.

This thread is over. You ALL lost.