The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

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The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by 90sDBZ » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:04 pm

Lately I've been seeing people mention how Toei made Goku more heroic than he was in the Manga. I know that interview with Toriyama where he mentions it has been posted a few times too. I thought it'd be good to get some opinions on it. Most of us have discussed the changes Funimation made to Goku plenty by now. Something that doesn't seem to come up quite as often (at least from my experience) are the changes that had already been made to the character by Toei beforehand.

I guess what I'm really looking for are some specific examples. For instance, what does Goku say or do in movies 1-13 that you couldn't picture him doing in the manga? Are there any filler scenes in the anime itself that strike you as him being out of character? Where there any alterations made to existing manga scenes in the anime that also showed this?

While the changes Funimation made are pretty well known, I haven't read the manga all the way through so would really be interested in someone highlighting the changes made to Goku by Toei. From what I have read of it I can't say I've noticed that much difference to the Japanese version of the anime. For example, he still spares Vegeta for the same reason, is still obsessed with fighting, and still makes many other questionable decisions.

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:29 pm

The one that immediately springs to mind is the scene before Goku uses the Kaio-Ken Kamehameha against Freeza.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:33 pm

Manga Goku is largely a simple-minded man who puts fighting above everything else but was still kind-hearted and clearly valued the people around him.

Toei Goku varies between being Japanese Superman (who is evident with the movies) and a selfish, moronic manchild who can't think past his own whims.... though he's generally more affectionate in the anime TV show (compare Goku waking from the heart virus in the anime and the manga). Sadly Super only plays into the "selfish manchild" aspect so far.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by ekrolo2 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:35 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:Manga Goku is largely a simple-minded man who puts fighting above everything else but was still kind-hearted and clearly valued the people around him.

Toei Goku varied between being Japanese Superman (who is evident with the movies) and a selfish, moronic manchild who can't think past his own whims.... though he's generally more affectionate in the anime TV show (compare Goku waking from the heart virus in the anime and the manga). Sadly Super only plays into the "selfish manchild" aspect so far.
Pretty much this. I'd also add Goku, from what I've seen of JPN GT, seemed to have matured in what his motivations for fighting were. Something I REALLY wish would show up in Super too.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Chuquita » Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:10 pm

I think of Z Toei Gokû and Super Toei Gokû as two different characters. Toei in Z does have him as generally more heroic, in Super he's (imo) cuter in temperament like character types you'd find in slice of life anime, but at the cost of some of his maturity from Z.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Cipher » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:03 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Pretty much this. I'd also add Goku, from what I've seen of JPN GT, seemed to have matured in what his motivations for fighting were. Something I REALLY wish would show up in Super too.
Oh my god, yeah! I didn't think I'd ever see someone agree with this, but GT Goku feels like a very natural progression to me. The scripts do make a lot of jokes at the expense of his return to childhood, and he gets a few childish traits in lighter situations as a result, but for most of the series, he's very much a believable endgame Goku--a bit calmed down, extremely bored, willing to be incredibly serious when push comes to shove. It feels like right about where he would be as a grandfather and post-Oob. I really like his moments with #18 at the end of the Super #17 arc, and his absolutely savage take-down of San Xing-Long after he takes Pan. He still toys with weaker opponents (he's bored)--and maybe even has a bit of a death-wish (which is maybe implied in only the most accidental of ways, but totally makes sense)--but he's a little colder with the truly threatening villains, and I think that's pretty in line with someone who's at the end of a development that's been taking place from the Piccolo arc onward.

GT is not Toriyama's Dragon Ball. But there are ways in which I think it makes a lot of sense.

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Bansho64 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:37 pm

I think Toei really showed some changes in Return My Gohan. Goku was hellbent on finding Gohan in that movie. I'm not saying he wasn't fatherly in the manga but holy crap was he determined in that movie. Even when he finds Chi Chi beaten up, all he kept asking her was "Where's Gohan!?" "Who took him!?" Later on after Kami explains Garlic's motives, Goku explained that he doesn't care about any of that. All he wanted was to find his son.

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Duo » Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:53 pm

This is such a tricky subject for me. I used to get worked up on the matter, a decade or so ago. I didn't care for a filler scene in particular where Goku is eating clouds in the afterlife. Just took the "always hungry" thing a bit far.

But, I don't know that I can agree with the idea that there's only two versions of Goku. His characterization in 'F' and Super is a slightly different beast to me than either the "Manga Goku" or "Toei Goku" of old. I thought BoG handled him perfectly, so I'm kinda baffled at this point, and I'm not even sure how to describe "Manga Goku" even though that's always been my point of enthusiasm.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by emi_b7 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:32 am

Yeah, I agree with what the other guys said, about him being more heroic (Japanese Superman as someone said) than in the manga. As far as examples, this one from Cooler's movie comes to mind:
I don't think we'd ever see Toriyama writing Goku reviving a bird lol, really WTF moment there.

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Danfun64 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:45 am

emi_b7 wrote:I didn't think we'd ever see Goku reviving Toriyama the bird lol.
FTFY.

In all seriousness, as someone who never really read the manga (only bits and pieces), I don't really know when Toei changed things with Goku. For the most part his character seemed pretty consistent to me. It's probably easier to find out of character moments with other DB characters concerning filler than with Goku.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Vijay » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:58 am

Why am I getting the Jap Goku vs Funi Goku vibe?

Or Z Goku vs GT Goku vs Super Goku vibe?

More than using TOEI, I'd much prefer Anime Goku

Anime Goku is Masako Nozawa

Manga Goku is much "simplified" version of Goku-vintage Toriyama

Honestly, all those Super & GT Overpowerings can GTFO for all I care. TOEI may think thays what definez Goku as character, when its clearly not the case

If Manga was soul, Anime was body. One doesnt exist without the other.

With that, the differences I've noticed are only the fillers & ridiculous OP's in Anime. Other than that, they're basically the same

Anime = Manga = Goku

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by 90sDBZ » Sat Mar 26, 2016 3:58 am

Something else I thought about is Goku's speech to Frieza before they first begin fighting. In the anime he vows to defeat him for all the innocent people he's killed in a very heroic manner. Was this speech actually in the Manga and if so was it handled any differently?

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by MajinMan » Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:08 am

90sDBZ wrote:Something else I thought about is Goku's speech to Frieza before they first begin fighting. In the anime he vows to defeat him for all the innocent people he's killed in a very heroic manner. Was this speech actually in the Manga and if so was it handled any differently?
Yes it was in the manga.

The whole "anime Goku is completely different than manga Goku" statement is overblown. They are the same character 98% of the time. The other 2% involves anime filler where they may have given Goku some heroic dialogue. Vegeta's number 1 speech sums up Goku's character pretty well.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:52 am

The magic Jesus bird? Yes, that is waaaaay out there.

But I don't really see how Return My Gohan! Goku is any different from manga Goku. Remember, that movie is based around the Raditz section of the story. And when Raditz kicked the crap out of Goku, there was no moment when he went, "Wow, this guy is so strong. It makes me super excited to face someone so powerful!" At no point is he focused on the thrill of the fight, consuming large quantities of food, or any other soon-to-be flanderized trait. The only thing he was focused on was his son and saving him. Before he would even fight, he made sure to ascertain Gohan's location and status. He never cared if he was the one strong enough to beat Raditz. He gave Piccolo the killing shot, twice. Actually, I think the fight with Raditz is a prime example of how Toriyama wrote Goku before he decided, "Oh, yeah, he's a Saiyan. I should write him more like a Saiyan."
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Duo » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:43 am

The newer stories seems to push this "Goku loves fighting so much that he drags fights out too much and lets his guard down" idea to a point I never read out of the manga or the anime/movies in the past. That's what's throwing me off. He was excited to fight Vegeta, but it was still a fight to the death and he put his life on the line for it. Same with Freeza. That battle was not avoidable. He fights Cell to a standstill largely so Gohan can learn what's going on and how Cell fights. The last thing I recall Goku saying about Freeza is that he should have made sure to kill him on Namek, but didn't, and wouldn't make that mistake again. 'F' comes along and it's like him and half the cast have selective amnesia.
Gaffer Tape wrote:Actually, I think the fight with Raditz is a prime example of how Toriyama wrote Goku before he decided, "Oh, yeah, he's a Saiyan. I should write him more like a Saiyan."
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Cipher » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:17 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:Actually, I think the fight with Raditz is a prime example of how Toriyama wrote Goku before he decided, "Oh, yeah, he's a Saiyan. I should write him more like a Saiyan."
Perhaps. Though I'd argue his dangerous fascination with strong opponents is already on display at the 23rd Tenkaici Budokai. And I don't think that reading depends on knowledge of how he'll later act at all.

People tend to overemphasize both his altruism and recklessness. In the manga, both are situational.

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:33 pm

Cipher wrote:People tend to overemphasize both his altruism and recklessness. In the manga, both are situational.
That's exactly what I was getting at over in the Is Goku a Superhero? thread. My problem is that Toriyama and the fanbase have reacted so negatively to improper characterizations of Goku emphasizing his altruism that they've gone too far in the other direction and emphasized the selfishness and recklessness more now than it used to be.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Noah » Sat Mar 26, 2016 4:54 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Cipher wrote:People tend to overemphasize both his altruism and recklessness. In the manga, both are situational.
That's exactly what I was getting at over in the Is Goku a Superhero? thread. My problem is that Toriyama and the fanbase have reacted so negatively to improper characterizations of Goku emphasizing his altruism that they've gone too far in the other direction and emphasized the selfishness and recklessness more now than it used to be.
You're talking about his portrayal in Super anime?
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat Mar 26, 2016 5:08 pm

Well, honestly, it was already getting bad in the Cell and Boo arcs, but, yeah, Super too. It was just something that happened over time. But he certainly spent a huge chunk of the franchise NOT as this selfish fighting maniac. Hell, the entire first arc, his role is the pure, innocent, selfless person to contrast against all the perverts, selfish liars, and thieves he's associated with. Nearly all the main characters are out for themselves, what they can get, how they can manipulate and abuse other people... except for Goku.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:02 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Cipher wrote:People tend to overemphasize both his altruism and recklessness. In the manga, both are situational.
That's exactly what I was getting at over in the Is Goku a Superhero? thread. My problem is that Toriyama and the fanbase have reacted so negatively to improper characterizations of Goku emphasizing his altruism that they've gone too far in the other direction and emphasized the selfishness and recklessness more now than it used to be.
Yeah, the thing about Goku is he doesn't outright disregard the safety of others or Earth. It's just that he prioritizes the thrill of the battle above it. He wouldn't be fighting in the first place if he didn't want to protect those around him. If all he gave a shit about was a fight, he'd be pre-Character Development Vegeta without the jerkassery.
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