The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Kingdom Heartless » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:05 am

One part that comes to mind is the scene right before Gohan returns to Earth in the Buu saga. In the manga Goku and Gohan share a hug, but in the anime, Gohan throws his arms around Goku while Goku just passively stands there for a moment before pulling Gohan back.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Soppa Saia People » Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:50 am

Why am I getting the Jap Goku vs Funi Goku vibe?
Ugh.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by hectorgf » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:16 pm

Toei Goku is the same character of the original Gok from the manga.
The fillers just emphasize some of his characteristics, but it's still his original characteristics.

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:42 pm

The closest Goku became heroic Goku in the manga was the Cell arc. Where he pretty much gave up fighting so he can have Gohan surpass him. Which gave Goku pride that his son was stronger then him and he did self sacrifice to save the earth from the Cell bomb.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by TheGreatness25 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:33 pm

I feel that people are over-simplifying manga Goku and making him sound like a selfish guy who just cares about being the strongest and fighting. I don't see anything in the anime that makes him more of a "superhero" than in the manga.

Look at all of his motivations in the manga -- both those that are established through dialog and through actions. Goku is a character that doesn't like to kill, really. He has a good time running away from the mountain lion, but never actually kills him. Goku doesn't kill Oolong. Goku kills those that killed someone important to him. But look deeper to his actions. Goku lets Raditz go when he has his tail the first time. Why did he do that? Goku didn't kill Freeza after Freeza got sliced by the discs. Why not? Goku let Vegeta live and said it was because of wanting to fight him again, but Goku did the same against Freeza and was going to do the same against Raditz and even the Ginyu Special Forces without wanting to fight them again. Goku is obviously driven by his family and friends and cares about them. In Dragon Ball, he constantly protects his friends and Kuririn's death sent him over the edge. In "Z," Goku desperately tries to rescue Gohan from Raditz and obviously wants the Earth to still be around. Goku was upset when Vegeta killed the defenseless Ginyus. Goku told Freeza that he was going to kill him for all of the Saiyans and Namekians that he killed.

So Goku cares about his family, he cares about not killing those who don't deserve it, he spares those who deserve to die, but cannot defend themselves, he doesn't want the planet to be destroyed, and he was going to dedicate killing Freeza to those who he's never even met who Freeza killed.

So what scene in the anime has Goku going too far with this? I just think that because Goku didn't straight up express "Hey, I'm fighting for all of the defenseless" in the manga, that people assume that somehow he's not like that. Well his words and actions show that he is pretty much a superhero. He cares about others' lives. Is he selfish? Damned right he's selfish, but he's selfish in the anime too (it's a little hard to not write him as selfish when he does things in the manga that translate into the anime). Hell, in GT, they had him spending that entire time between Z and GT away and he didn't care how anyone felt about him turning into a kid. While Goku is selfish, that isn't the same as not caring about anyone.

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by 8000 Saiyan » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:18 pm

I think people tend to exaggerate the differences.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Tavarano » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:07 pm

In the manga Goku killed himself with Cell on purpose, it's a gag, he turned around and removed his hand from his forehead after teleporting to Kaio's planet, something that anime didn't do as he appeared in that pose instantly, his apology to ChiChi was presumably because he promised her that he would get a job as it fits with Toriyama's humor, promise he fullfilled in DBS, anime made it genuinely remorseful which is OOC.

He hit ChiChi on purpose as well and feigned innocence (note the stuttering), there was a prelude for that where Goku got enraged at her in the hospital in about same situation, anime changed his wide swing to a light tap and removed his anger moment altogether. Quite a mad dog.

The scene where Goku refuses to be ressurected at the end of Cell arc is very different, in the manga Gohan has a sour mine when Goku tells him that, and then the characters are shocked when Goku ends the conversation, in the anime instead Gohan looks content, and the characters are talking about how Goku taught them courage and stuff like that, well Goku is an asshole, he isn't teaching anyone anything. Looking at the context of this scene, it's absolutely fucked up, Goku refusing to be ressurected there is one of the most disgusting and terrible things he has ever done, and the characters are complimenting him? That and that song from Boo arc that frames him as an angel after what he did.

Goku meeting Goten scene, in the manga Goku ignores him, and it's a gag, because ChiChi hypes Goten up to meet Goku and then he's like "that's my father? meh".

In the saiyan arc there is a moment where Gohan returns to help Goku, then has problems getting hurt, Goku first tries to convince him normally but then gives in to his anger and completely loses it, anime changed that scene and made Goku look like a mentor with him pulling his arm towards Gohan, it implies that Goku made excuses to fight alone before, though the reaction there was already very implicative as they didn't buy the reasoning, and raging at Gohan that he would let people die for nothing and doing the same afterwards is another massive hypocrisy from Goku, highlights his erratic behavior, Goku just says things to make things happen.

There are some differences with how Goku treats Gohan in some other scenes, Goku is being touchy and affectionate in RoSaT while cold in the manga, he seems to look with pride at Gohan after he gets new clothes from Piccolo but is completely uninterested in the manga, fishing trip is a mean-spirited gag, Goku promises him a fishing trip, then does make him wait 4 years and ultimately ruins the mood lying about things he shouldn't lie about, in anime it's fun time like most of pre-cell games scenes.

One element of poison, that does happen in the anime but I don't think many people notice, is when Goku returns from Yadrat, no moment of affection, he moves onto fighting topics, it's a gag with previous panels of Gohan awaiting him.
Goku in general is supposed to be abusive to his family, since he is "different" and they aren't. Anime really messed up this part of his character with all the changes and filler, hence why in DBS Toriyama put a decent amount of focus on that with all the no kissing type of things.

Movies, rather than being a case of what Goku does that he shouldn't, are more of a case of what Goku doesn't do that he should, he doesn't make reckless and outrageous decisions, he doesn't go against gods' warnings, he doesn't lie and manipulate, he isn't a dick to his friends and family, he doesn't try whoring out women, even the endings are different, in the manga Goku leaves his friends, refuses to have a farewell feast with Bora and Upa, leaves his family constantly, it is even commented how happy Goku is doing it at the end of Cell and Boo arcs to make it more reprehensible, in movies' endings he does the exact opposite things.

Anime included plenty of dramatic scenes often with Goku, Toriyama is consistent in saying that DB is intended to be meaningless entertainment without any moving things, and it almost always has been contradictive. Goku having a dream that androids will kill his family after he let them be created to have some fun? He has a dream on the snakeway that saiyans attack ChiChi and Gohan, then says he has to hurry because everyone is counting on him, but in the manga instead there is this gag where Gohan is shown missing his dad, while Goku is shown to not give a crap about him in the same chapter.

Anime adaptation overall is somewhat of a tonal mismatch, it tries to treat itself like a purely nice, adventurous story, but that's not Dragon Ball at all, in Dragon world the characters are genociders, murderers, cheaters, pedophiles, liars, womanizers, sexual predators, they leave people to die as they deem themselves more worthy, put lives on the line to satisfy their lust, erase universes, kill people because food wasn't good, they're all sorts of scum, and nobody ever gets punished, if anything assholes get rewarded (#1 speech) and good guys get it the worst (Future Trunks' timeline getting offed, Android 16 and his message get ignored, buried and forgotten).
You can tell it by episode 1, Bulma tries to murder Goku because he accidentally has gotten in her way, not exactly the nice girl from Romantic Ageru. Same concept goes for Goku, does Goku from Cha-La Head-Cha-La and Zenkai Power give a vibe of a guy who would force his friends to watch as he is toying with their lives? It's exactly what he has done just few episodes before they were first broadcasted, and his behavior has only gotten worse since then. Per Toriyama's words, Goku is supposed to create a sense that he isn't a good guy, he thinks only about becoming stronger, and good things he does are only a result of that. And the filler scenes, when Toriyama writes "filler" (as in non story, non fighting scenes), you end up with nasty and mean-spirited jokes, Goku disrespects Roshi stealing his sunglasses, Goku leaves his family in a car in the middle of a ride, Gohan shoots his pregnant wife while drunk, Kuririn enjoys a meal in front of hungry Goku after the stone race, meanwhile from Toei you would get something like Goku having a bath with Gohan. An interesting moment is how Toriyama would draw Goku giving Gohan steel cold treatment in RoSaT, but opted not to draw the scene where he cuts his hair, he doesn't like nice things and doesn't want any sympathizing with his characters, they are meant to entertain, usually by being jackasses, it's a big directional difference.

Important characteristic of Goku is that he absolutely never changes as Toriyama says (and GT messed it up), his obsession with becoming stronger than before is what defines him, if anything he becomes more and more accustomed to his behavior, you can understand the intent when you look at Roshi, his antics go from nuanced (as far as nuanced sexual predation upon young girls can be) to straight up butt grabs, and Roshi may get hit for doing this but ultimately never gets taught a lesson and Bulma has to live with being constantly sexually assaulted, in case of Goku, he becomes oppressive to other characters starting from 23rd Budokai, other characters may call him out and complain, but in the end he never gets a lesson that he can't leave his family without consequences and never gets a lesson to stop with his battle thirst, it's very similar writing.

Some more interesting bits of poison, they do happen in the anime but for the sake of possible discussion.

Goku laughs in euphory (Goku's excessive happiness out of good fights is not something Toei was doing too) after the fight with Raditz, and sets his sights for the next challenge, followed by a gag on the snakeway mentioned above. His disinterest for his son seems like a retcon after the way he acted versus Raditz, was he just manipulating Gohan to make him his fighting partner like Oob and Broli or did the battle thirst sway him? Or maybe did Toriyama only start their relationship on a high note for the following degeneration to feel more nasty, like YamchaxBulma and GokuxChichi, consistency be damned?

Goku himself notices that it was a wrong thing to let Vegeta go, only to double down later and give him a senzu bean in front of Gohan and Kuririn, which is in line with Dragon Ball's pessimistic tendencies.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:30 pm

I do think it’s interesting that when Gohan got kidnapped by Raditz it was framed as Goku was worried about incurring Chi Chi’s wrath “Chi Chi would be mad if he got hurt” in Return my Gohan! he’s much more paternalistic in his concern for Gohan.

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Michsi » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:40 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:30 pm
I do think it’s interesting that when Gohan got kidnapped by Raditz it was framed as Goku was worried about incurring Chi Chi’s wrath “Chi Chi would be mad if he got hurt” in Return my Gohan! he’s much more paternalistic in his concern for Gohan.
Pair that up with how he reacts when finding out about Goten in the manga vs. the anime. When I got to that section in the manga I remember going "Wait, that's it?"

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by sintzu » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:53 am

Michsi wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:40 am
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:30 pm
I do think it’s interesting that when Gohan got kidnapped by Raditz it was framed as Goku was worried about incurring Chi Chi’s wrath “Chi Chi would be mad if he got hurt” in Return my Gohan! he’s much more paternalistic in his concern for Gohan.
Pair that up with how he reacts when finding out about Goten in the manga vs. the anime. When I got to that section in the manga I remember going "Wait, that's it?"
The manga's version of the Buu arc was lacking in both character moments and fights due most likely to Toriyama being burned out. Thankfully the anime filled in the holes.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Michsi » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:19 am

sintzu wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:53 am
Michsi wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:40 am
MasenkoHA wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:30 pm
I do think it’s interesting that when Gohan got kidnapped by Raditz it was framed as Goku was worried about incurring Chi Chi’s wrath “Chi Chi would be mad if he got hurt” in Return my Gohan! he’s much more paternalistic in his concern for Gohan.
Pair that up with how he reacts when finding out about Goten in the manga vs. the anime. When I got to that section in the manga I remember going "Wait, that's it?"
The manga's version of the Buu arc was lacking in both character moments and fights due most likely to Toriyama being burned out. Thankfully the anime filled in the holes.
I don't know about that. The Boo arc contains one of the most character driven moments -ex.: the whole Saiyaman mini-arc, Vegeta's sacrifice, Mr. Satan befriending Boo- not to mention Toriyama's favorite fight next to Goku vs. King Piccolo - Boo vs. Gotenks.

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by Noah » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:04 am

Tavarano wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:07 pm
snip
That was worth the read, I appreciate your contribution, but I can't stop thinking how I prefer anime Goku much more. I know it could be cool to have some different protag that don't care about basic life values, which is fine since he's a alien. But, people love heroes and cheesy lines, that's my piece of cake.

Not that I all for Toei movies Goku, who is a assumed warrior of justice, but yes anime Goku, that is in fact a hero, that sometimes put that aside in order to have a good fight. I wouldn't change anything that Toei did to Goku in Z, because that's what make me like his character.

Then, Super came and it was all gone to the window, sure you can make Goku close to his manga persona, but you shouldn't make him like a blatant idiot that forgets senzu in the bathroom heading to a deathmatch nor knowing what freaking kissing is considering he lived decades on Earth and had acess to TV and magazines for the love of God.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by ABED » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:10 am

It's overly simplistic to say Goku doesn't care about basic human values. He is a hero, but a different type of hero, and it's not about prefering a different type of protag because that's "cool". It's about seeing a different type of hero. If a superhero like Superman is your bag, that's great, but that's not Goku so why would you want him to be the same thing?
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That was worth the read
No, it really isn't. I guess it is if you find reading analysis that drops context repeatedly.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:41 am

Just want to point out that Goku

Put his adventure on hold to carry Turtle home to the sea

Rescued the Jingle Village leader

Stormed the Red Ribbon base to get the dragon balls to wish Oopa’s father back to life

Went after Piccolo Daimao and his clan when Tambourine killed Kuririn

Kept his promise to Chi Chi despite not understanding it when he made it

Was righteously disgusted by the Saiyajin’s actions

Was awaken by anger when Freeza killed Kuririn


Goku may be myopic in his quest to find stronger opponents to fight but he’s not in any way a bad person. He cares about his friends, he’s always trying to help people, and he has his own sense of honor.

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by ABED » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:47 am

I've said for a while now that Goku is very concrete bound. He gets excited at the prospect of a fight and won't step in pre-emptively to stop bad guys, but when he's confronted by destruction in front of him, he will help out. Case in point, saving village elder from the Red Ribbon Army in Muscle Tower.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:51 am

ABED wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:47 am
I've said for a while now that Goku is very concrete bound. He gets excited at the prospect of a fight and won't step in pre-emptively to stop bad guys, but when he's confronted by destruction in front of him, he will help out. Case in point, saving village elder from the Red Ribbon Army in Muscle Tower.
Yeah this. And I really, really, REALLY hate the whole "BUT GOKU ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A HERO" nonsense that people throw out. I was actually rewatching some of the earlier DBS episodes for Japanese language studying, and while I remember being varily positive about the more "slice of life" aspects of the show, it becomes apparent just how much that first episode sets the foundation for the very qualities that I despise in DBS Goku--the entire joke is that Goku would rather be anywhere else than with his family. That's the joke. I'm supposed to go "hahahah, that Goku is incorrigible" Instead it really focuses on how DBS completely misunderstands the appeal of Goku.

Yes, Goku loves fighting. Yes, he makes countless mistakes because he enjoys the thrill of the fight. But the difference between Z Goku and Super Goku, is that Z Goku recognizes the saiyan aspect of his character as being simply a part of a complicated character. Yes, he loves to fight. But he's also clearly devoted to his friends and family. What makes him likable isn't simply because "he's the strongest." It's because his simple minded-nature allows him to cut through people's bullshit, and his devotion to both getting stronger and the people he cares is what wins him new allies--even of his enemies. DBS completely flanderizes Goku's love of the fight as being his sole defining trait. Even within the first episode of DBS, he spends most of the time complaining about having to work because ChiChi needs money, and treating his family like a fucking ball and chain. And that's a repeated problem with Super's characterization of Goku: He grows exceedingly selfish, and the show treats it like a gag that we're supposed to find endearing.

And it all culminates into the moment that turned me from simply "bored" to "actively hate-watching" DBS: The moment where Goku boasts to during the tournament that he doesn't give a shit that he essentially sentenced entire worlds to complete non-existance, and that he only cares about winning. It's a moment that I have no idea how it got off the cutting room floor, and the manga was smart enough to dispose of the scene entirely. I can buy Goku in his excitement stumbling into something that gets everyone into trouble..I do not for a second buy that not only would he get everyone involved in such a dangerous tournament, but to turn around and completely taunt others for correctly calling him out for it. That's a pre-Namek Vegeta move, and it told me that the writers of the Super anime had no idea what the fuck they were doing.

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:09 am

In case it's not clear, he lets enemies go even though he knows they will likely cause destruction later because he wants to fight them. To say he's complex is putting it lightly.

And can we stop using the term "Flanderize"? Not only is it an unnecessary term, it also mischaracterizes Ned Flanders as some two dimensional caricature.
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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:18 am

ABED wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:09 am

And can we stop using the term "Flanderize"? Not only is it an unnecessary term, it also mischaracterizes Ned Flanders as some two dimensional caricature.
I’m a strong advocate for purging all stupid tv tropes lingo.

For fuck sake people just call it character exaggeration.

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:22 pm

One big difference between Toei Goku and Manga Goku has to do with the character’s views on his Saiyan heritage. In the manga, Goku seemed to have no problem accepting the fact that he’s a Saiyan. Sure, he was initially shocked by the revelation, but even within the Saiyan arc, he had no problem informing Kaio that he’s a Saiyan, and when he told Kuririn that he wanted to fight Vegeta again, part of his justification was that his Saiyan heritage means that he can’t help but love fighting. In comparison, Toei had him occasionally say things like “I’m not a Saiyan! I’m an Earthling!” Needless to say, that characterization is kind of at odds with the manga, and it even clashes with the moments in the anime that are taken directly from the manga.

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Re: The differences between Toei Goku and Manga Goku

Post by TheBigBoy » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:05 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:18 am

I’m a strong advocate for purging all stupid tv tropes lingo.

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