AB Groupe Edits...

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AB Groupe Edits...

Post by Danfun64 » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:32 pm

Thanks to DBZ Uncensored Gude and the 3GKai Nicktoons Guide, the censorship for the Funi dubs is fairly well known. It's also well known that the AB Groupe's strategy to censorship was to just cut things out. However, I can't find a guide to AB Groupe censorship anywhere (at least, not in English).

Does anybody have a list on what things were cut across DB, DBZ & DBGT, whether they made the show incomprehensible, how it affected the German and Danish(?) dubs, which corrected Frenchisms with Manga translations, and how it affected the Blue Water dubs and the very end of the Westwood dub, which appear to use a completely different script from the French base they use (I think the Funi scripts for the final DBZ episodes and to a lesser extent the DB episodes) and appear to have even more censorship (at least in some areas)?
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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by Nightmare Wheel » Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:18 pm

The Blue Water dub is mostly uncensored from what I remember. They really just removed anything involving panties. The only time it really became incomprehensible is when Kamesennin gives Bulma the Dragon Ball. for no real reason. Can't speak for much else.

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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:48 pm

I think that would be quite hard to do. As far as I know, the French dub (the first one to use AB Groupe masters) got more and more censorhip each time it aired.

If it hasn't been done yet and someone wants to, the best thing to do is to try to look for recordings of the original airing in France (maybe VHS releases? I don't know) or use a second-generation dub, to try to guess how much it was edited at the beginning.
My bet is that not much was cut, except maybe some stuff related to panties at the beginning of DB. For instance the Spanish dub used the original AB Groupe masters without making any additional cuts, and it was reportedly almost uncut in its first airing. However, since some footage was cut in a later airing, and it was never recovered for the DVD releases, it's not a good place to start. Maybe German...
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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by Puto » Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:15 pm

The Portuguese dub was based on the French one, so the edits should be similar. Here's Cesm's edit list for the first 50 episodes of DB:
EP - TOTAL - Start Time - Duration / Start Time - Duration / Start Time - Duration / etc...
002 (00:20) - 17:38 20s
003 (02:46) - 04:39 7,5s / 10:17 4s / 15:23 50s / 17:30 01m30s
004 (00:29) - 03:27 6s / 11:56 20s / 15:49 3s
005 (00:49) - 05:30 14s / 05:47 10s / 11:44 13s / 12:01 11s
006 (00:02) - 14:39 2,5s
007 (00:08) - 04:52 8s
008 (00:41) - 20:37 41s
010 (00:15) - 01:50 11s / 20:37 4,5s
011 (00:11) - 06:31 9s / 12:37 2s
012 (00:29) - 21:34 20s / 22:33 9s
013 (00:46) - 13:25 24s / 15:59 22s
014 (01:37) - 07:10 6s / 15:15 3s / 16:37 35s / 17:25 12s / 19:54 16s / 20:45 3s / 22:01 22s
015 (00:36) - 16:33 15s / 20:47 21s
016 (00:33) - 16:16 26s / 20:18 7s
017 (01:43) - 01:51 01m29s / 04:30 5s / 06:40 4s / 12:29 3s
019 (01:17) - 05:08 01m02s / 15:45 11s / 17:35 4s
020 (00:17) - 04:02 4s / 07:46 4s / 08:56 2s / 12:31 6s
021 (01:41) - 04:02 41s / 12:21 8s / 15:38 9s / 16:13 1s / 18:16 17s / 20:51 21s / 21:32 2s
022 (01:54) - 01:50 57s / 03:06 3s / 03:55 3s / 04:04 5s / 12:33 11s / 13:15 2s / 14:08 8s / 16:25 2s / 18:48 9s / 21:26 3s / 21:56 11s
023 (00:16) - 01:50 5s / 02:19 2s / 02:38 9s
024 (00:14) - 03:09 10s / 09:26 4s
025 (00:16) - 02:34 6s / 09:11 4s / 13:17 5s
026 (00:38) - 08:20 4s / 11:29 5s / 13:49 2s / 17:54 25s / 20:39 2s
027 (01:13) - 04:32 3s / 07:51 3s / 13:50 01m08s
028 (00:19) - 19:06 5s / 20:35 15s
033 (00:09) - 17:27 9s
037 (01:30) - 18:34 01m30s
045 (00:10) - 12:27 10s
046 (00:31) - 05:49 31s
047 (00:53) - 05:59 51s / 14:48 2s
048 (00:12) - 20:26 12s
049 (00:35) - 05:17 27s / 07:57 8s
Times based off the FUNi Season Sets.
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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by Danfun64 » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:07 pm

UltimateHammerBro wrote:... the Spanish dub used the original AB Groupe masters without making any additional cuts, and it was reportedly almost uncut in its first airing. However, since some footage was cut in a later airing, and it was never recovered for the DVD releases, it's not a good place to start. Maybe German...
I was under the impression that the German dub was done several years later than the French dub, so it would have all the edits of the final French master.
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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by Danfun64 » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:11 pm

I looked at each of the scenes that AB Groupe would remove completely. Looks like a sloppy job to me. While the censorship usually makes sense, some of it is bizarre (only cutting some of the panties fishing scene) while others give you the feeling that you're missing *something* (cutting Krillin giving the porn magazines to Roshi but still showing him looking at them, even from a distance...) Here is the list (up the the first 21 episodes) with my comments on what was cut.
002 (00:20) - 17:38 20s
Goku lies down on Bulma's crotch, noticing her lack of balls. I'm assuming that it goes from Goku staring at Bulma to him screaming for seemingly no reason.
003 (02:46) - 04:39 7,5s / 10:17 4s / 15:23 50s / 17:30 01m30s
1. Goku punches a large sentient animal. What is cut is the animal's nose bleeding. 2. Japanese text. 3. Roshi wants to see Bulma's panties. She unknowingly flashes him. 4. Bulma flashes him even more. Later, she finds out that Goku took off her panties. If this is a straight cut, it goes from Goku and Bulma talking to Roshi to Bulma yelling at Goku.
004 (00:29) - 03:27 6s / 11:56 20s / 15:49 3s
1. Goku and Bulma arrive at a village. Nothing offensive. 2. Bulma opens up her jacket, showing the curves of her boobs to Oolong, who imagines himself doing Pafu Pafu on them. 3. Japanese text.
005 (00:49) - 05:30 14s / 05:47 10s / 11:44 13s / 12:01 11s
1 & 2. Bulma uses panties to catch Oolong, who transformed into a fish. The second cut shot is Goku holding fish Oolong, panties in his mouth. The rest of the cut scene is an inoffensive distance shot of Goku, Oolong, and Bulma on the boat. So apparently it goes from Bulma talking about catching Oolong, to Oolong grabbing the panties, to Goku talking to Oolong on the boat...makes perfect sense... 3. Oolongs transformation into panties is cut, but Bulma looking at the panties is retained? 4. We see Bulma begin to smack Oolong, but the actual smack is cut.
006 (00:02) - 14:39 2,5s
Yamcha takes a peek at a naked Bulma. The next shot is him screaming with Japanese text coming from the house.
007 (00:08) - 04:52 8s
Mai and Shu are tortured by electrocution. Apparently the lighting hitting Pilaf's fork is left alone...
008 (00:41) - 20:37 41s
Oolong transforming into Bulma is shown, but Roshi performing Pafu-Pafu (complete with japanese text) is cut.
010 (00:15) - 01:50 11s / 20:37 4,5s
1. An inoffensive aerial shot of giant mushrooms. 2. Yamcha's screams echoing around the castle is cut. Nothing offensive going on.
011 (00:11) - 06:31 9s / 12:37 2s
1. Bulma flipping Pilaf off is cut. 2. Yamcha getting a nice look at Bulma's boobs is cut.
012 (00:29) - 21:34 20s / 22:33 9s
1. Some of Goku's transformation is cut. Maybe AB Groupe thought the scene would be too scary for kids? 2. 22:33 is the beginning of the credits sequence. Perhaps the person who compiled this list meant the last real scene, where Oozaru Goku jump scares the audience for no reason.
013 (00:46) - 13:25 24s / 15:59 22s
1. Some of the shots of Oozaru Goku beginning to revert to his normal form have been cut. 2. The flashback to Goku talking about the monster that killed Grandpa Gohan is cut.
014 (01:37) - 07:10 6s / 15:15 3s / 16:37 35s / 17:25 12s / 19:54 16s / 20:45 3s / 22:01 22s
1. The TV reflecting the exercise program off Roshi's glasses is cut. 2. Japanese Text. 3. Roshi's nose bleeding and japanese text have both been removed. 4. The zoom in of the Mermaid's boobs and Roshi flirting with her is cut. 5. Krilling giving Roshi porn is cut. 6. Close up of Roshi looking at the porn. Apparently Krillin gave Roshi a magazine offscreen. 7. Krillin giving Roshi even more porn, including at least one gay porn magazine.
015 (00:36) - 16:33 15s / 20:47 21s
1. Roshi gets a good look at Lunch, Japanese text illustrating parts of her body. 2. Roshi gets another good look at Lunch. A flying insect appears and Roshi tries to shoo it off.
016 (00:33) - 16:16 26s / 20:18 7s
1. Roshi tries to grab Lunch's butt, but is interrupted by Krillin giving him the fake rock. 2. Roshi tries to grab the butt again. Again Krillin interrupts him.
017 (01:43) - 01:51 01m29s / 04:30 5s / 06:40 4s / 12:29 3s
1. A cute, nonoffensive scene showing Krillin and Goku sleeping, Krillin unintentionally kicking Roshi awake, and Lunch kissing Goku. 2. Roshi getting a nosebleed is cut. 3. Roshi trying to poke Lunch's boobs is cut. 4. Krillin puts a jar of milk next to a mailbox with Japanese writing on it.
019 (01:17) - 05:08 01m02s / 15:45 11s / 17:35 4s
1. Roshi tries to get a peak up Lunch's skirt. Unfortunately for him, both Goku and Krillin choose that moment to ask for more food. She gets up, much to Roshi's disappointment. When she grabs a large portion of rice and puts it on the table, it smashes it, cause Roshi pain. 2. Roshi grops a stewardess' butt. 3. Japanese text on the Tenchaichi Tournament arena.
020 (00:17) - 04:02 4s / 07:46 4s / 08:56 2s / 12:31 6s
1,2,3. Oolong gets a look at Bulma's unmentionables. 4. Oolong and a bunch of perverted guys look at Bulma's exposed panties.
021 (01:41) - 04:02 41s / 12:21 8s / 15:38 9s / 16:13 1s / 18:16 17s / 20:51 21s / 21:32 2s
1. Bulma smacks Roshi after he asks her for Pafu-Pafu. 2. A look at the roster (in Japanese) 3. Bacterium grabs stuff from his crotch. 4. Krillin collapses from Bacterium's stench. Why was this cut? 5. Bacterium shoots a booger at Krillin. 6. Krillin moons Bacterium and farts in his face.
[/quote]

I honestly feel bad for the Canadians and Europeans who had to put up with AB Groupe's remove-the-entire-offending-scene style of censorship. At least with Harmony Gold and Funi, the edits were done fairly competently (for the most part. *cough* BLT Goku Underwear *cough*) and aren't confusing. Again, how did the Blue Water and German dubs deal with these edits? Narrate what isn't obvious?
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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by Pokewhiz7 » Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:23 pm

Was the fact that FUNimation had access to "digital paint" at the time (1995) actually technologically-impressive by comparison?

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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by Danfun64 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:25 pm

I looked at the Blue Water and German dub of episode 14 of the original DB online. Both are compromised through, as the former comes from Toonami UK, which may have more edits than the YTV version, and the latter is synced to the Blue Bricks rather than using the original (French based) video, meaning any visual censorship the German release had was removed and may have had missing scenes either fandubbed with soundalikes or having Japanese (or English, considering where the video source comes from) audio where the German dub didn't reach.

At least the Blue Water dub kept the scene where Roshi's nose bleeds and Japanese text is coming out of his nose in reaction to the mermaid. While the (Toonami UK cut of the) Blue Water dub shortens the scene where Krillin gives Roshi the porn, the German appears to have it completely intact, unless there was a soundalike fandub involved.

The plot thickens...
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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:03 pm

Danfun64 wrote:
UltimateHammerBro wrote:... the Spanish dub used the original AB Groupe masters without making any additional cuts, and it was reportedly almost uncut in its first airing. However, since some footage was cut in a later airing, and it was never recovered for the DVD releases, it's not a good place to start. Maybe German...
I was under the impression that the German dub was done several years later than the French dub, so it would have all the edits of the final French master.
Assuming it used the French master. I know the German dub used the French video and audio masters for their DB and DBZ dubs, but I'm not totally sure about GT. Here are the two biggest sources of doubt.

Firstly, the German dub--for God-knows-why--cut a lot of episodes. I don't mean they censored scenes here and there (although they did do that for the episodes that aired), I literally mean that 13 episodes were never dubbed or aired on German TV. It got especially messy towards the end. Here's an episode list, complete with air dates. I think the most notable instance of this was skipping episodes 54-57, then airing episode 58, and then skipping straight to the final episode. If I were a German audience member, I'd be confused as hell...but in any event, while I can't say if they were censored or not, the AB Groupe did dub every single episode of GT in French.

Here's the other source of doubt. When GT finally did get a German DVD release, the episodes that were dubbed were kept as-is, edits and all, no uncut redubbing or anything like that. For the episodes that didn't air, though? They were available on DVD, but only with the original Japanese audio with German subtitles. This suggests that Kaze, the company who released the DVDs, must have gotten the footage directly from Toei. If they got it from the AB Groupe, it suggests that they would have had the French dub audio, rather than the original Japanese audio. Of course, I suppose it's possible that they still got the French masters for the episodes that they dubbed into German and only went to Toei for the episodes that they never dubbed...but in any event, these are the reasons I'm not totally convinced they used the French masters in the case of the German GT dub.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by Vorige Waffe » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:45 pm

As for bizarre edits, I just re-watched episode 142 and the scenes of Kami and Piccolo speaking in Namekian are weirdly truncated in that they remove any and all shots of the Namekian language on screen. The conversation between them as a result lacks any sort of tension as Piccolo just matter of factly states Hero is Kami.
Last edited by Vorige Waffe on Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by Danfun64 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:29 pm

There doesn't seem to be any Namekian speech in the Blue Water version of ep 142 either. It seems to have been retained in the ep 143 recap though.
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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by Iberian_Saiyan » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:07 pm

Puto wrote:
As a kid that grew with the AB Groupe footage I didn't realise there was edited stuff even though at times it could have looked off but that's the thing, kids just watch and don't complain. Now, if I were to go back and watch it it'd most certainly feel very weird to see these odd cuts.

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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by sangofe » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:22 am

TheBlackPaladin wrote:
Danfun64 wrote:
UltimateHammerBro wrote:while I can't say if they were censored or not, the AB Groupe did dub every single episode of GT in French.
DBGT was entirely uncut dubbed in french. (Although with shitty replacement actors for most of the characters).

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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by DBGod » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:22 am

Danfun64 wrote:I looked at the Blue Water and German dub of episode 14 of the original DB online. Both are compromised through, as the former comes from Toonami UK, which may have more edits than the YTV version, and the latter is synced to the Blue Bricks rather than using the original (French based) video, meaning any visual censorship the German release had was removed and may have had missing scenes either fandubbed with soundalikes or having Japanese (or English, considering where the video source comes from) audio where the German dub didn't reach.

At least the Blue Water dub kept the scene where Roshi's nose bleeds and Japanese text is coming out of his nose in reaction to the mermaid. While the (Toonami UK cut of the) Blue Water dub shortens the scene where Krillin gives Roshi the porn, the German appears to have it completely intact, unless there was a soundalike fandub involved.

The plot thickens...
Danfun64 wrote:There doesn't seem to be any Namekian speech in the Blue Water version of ep 142 either. It seems to have been retained in the ep 143 recap though.
If you specify the specific time you suspect there to be an edit in the Toonami UK broadcast of the Blue Water dub, I can help you confirm it since I have the entire series recorded off YTV but don't really have the time or patience to compare to the Toonami recordings I have. Send me a PM if your interested, because I'm certainly curious to see the extent to which Toonami made further edits myself.
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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:43 pm

sangofe wrote:DBGT was entirely uncut dubbed in french. (Although with shitty replacement actors for most of the characters).
Interesting...just out of curiosity, do you know why it was uncut and why the actors were replaced? Was it a different studio handling it, or something else like that?
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by Danfun64 » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:21 pm

Also, how were the scripts? Were they as bad as the older DB dubs ( Inaccurate terminology [which I can excuse if it comes from DB and DBZ in DBGT, as the damage had already been done and I'm sure DBGT came shortly after the French DBZ dub ended. Inaccurate terminology of completely new terms however...], strange renaming ( [Denon King] Piccolo to Satan, Piccolo [Jr] to Satan's Little Heart [or in the case of AB Groupe's English movie dub, Big Green], strange dub errors [Examples from the Big Green dub, which I think apply to the French dub as well. DBZ Movie 1 (paraphrased): Garlic Jr.: "Now that Big Green is dead God is no longer immortal...", DBZ Movie 7 Gohan: "What we need is Big Green!" Krillin: "Who's that? Who's Big Green?"] , complete avoidance of calling things by name whenever possible, or calling almost every attack the Kamehameha.)?
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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by gaberparadiso » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:48 pm

Ab Groupe dub takes everything from French dub, just like the European Spanish, the European Portuguese and the German ones. Piccolo is called Piccolo in American dub, in Latin American, in German, in European Spanish (it's pronounced Piccòlo, though), but in Italian he's called Junior, in French Petit-Coeur, in Catalan Cor-Petit, in Portuguese Satan (in fact, he has a filtered demon voice, so it's quite coherent :lol: ). Judging by my premise, I simply don't get why British dub called him Big Green. As for the other names, Goku is called Gòku or Gokuu (with elongated vowel), Gohan is Gohèn, Krilin is Clearin, Master Roshi becomes the Old Man. Still, the worst part remains the Genkidama and the Kaioken called Kamehameha, and in Movie 6 Vegeta yells 'Kamehameha' even though it isn't one of his techniques, AT ALL.

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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:19 pm

Vorige Waffe wrote:As for bizarre edits, I just re-watched episode 142 and the scenes of Kami and Piccolo speaking in Namekian are weirdly truncated in that they remove any and all shots of the Namekian language on screen. The conversation between them as a result lacks any sort of tension Piccolo just matter of factly states Hero is Kami.
Danfun64 wrote:There doesn't seem to be any Namekian speech in the Blue Water version of ep 142 either. It seems to have been retained in the ep 143 recap though.
That's weird. The Spanish dub keeps those shots. Just how many versions did AB Groupe make? :lol:
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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by sangofe » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:29 pm

UltimateHammerBro wrote:
Vorige Waffe wrote:As for bizarre edits, I just re-watched episode 142 and the scenes of Kami and Piccolo speaking in Namekian are weirdly truncated in that they remove any and all shots of the Namekian language on screen. The conversation between them as a result lacks any sort of tension Piccolo just matter of factly states Hero is Kami.
Danfun64 wrote:There doesn't seem to be any Namekian speech in the Blue Water version of ep 142 either. It seems to have been retained in the ep 143 recap though.
That's weird. The Spanish dub keeps those shots. Just how many versions did AB Groupe make? :lol:
Actually, it wasn't AB that made them, but the TV channels around here and there. And AB didn't really care to keep track of the least uncut versions...

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Re: AB Groupe Edits...

Post by genjosanzo8 » Sat Apr 09, 2016 10:45 am

TheBlackPaladin wrote:
sangofe wrote:DBGT was entirely uncut dubbed in french. (Although with shitty replacement actors for most of the characters).
Interesting...just out of curiosity, do you know why it was uncut and why the actors were replaced? Was it a different studio handling it, or something else like that?
i am french so i can confirm sangofe affirmation, french dragon ball gt series had a 90% replaced actors and these dub was totally uncut.. french ab-group had make dbgt uncut dub even if the selling version doesn't have all title screen card and don't have preview they was dub in french (3-4 years ago the french channel "mangas" aired a remaster version with dragon box footage that have all title card and all preview dub in french but these version just aired one time and don't have been release

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