Anyone interested in discussing the social issues of DB?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

What's been done with Videl and #18 since the series' revival strikes me as upsetting and out-of-touch with one of the series' previous strengths though. And then we don't even get a female fighter at the Universe 6 tournament. It's not great, and it's not as good as it's been in the past.

Even though Toriyama said he has trouble writing Female characters (most Shounen writers say this) they end up overlooking their accidental gems and focus too intentionally on writing them as what they think women are in their understanding. Its why I did not like Gine when I read her description, but we overlook Celipa who is actually a better depiction of what I'd like from a more natural personality of a Female Saiyan based on BT3. The same effect is in Naruto and Bleach. The unintentionally more interesting females are written for plot and the focused foreground females are written in the Traditional-Wife box.(Interesting) Temari, Ten-Ten, Anko, Karin, Tsudande > (Boring) Hinata, Sakura, Ino. I think thats the flaw in Shounen writing.

By comparison even Pan from GT, gets the short-end by the fanbase rather. Beyond the generalized GT hate, she gets her bad wrap because she is "bitchy, annoying". While even though she had personality and character growth - people only accept the same traits of "bitchy and annoying" on male characters deemed "cool" like Vegeta, despite acting the exact same way comparatively. (While Vegeta was toned up moreso).

Well, you are watching Japanese series and sadly for most modern western viewers, Japanese culture is sexist, racist, and homophobic...
That's nothing negative on Japan, it is like that. You can say, that Czech culture is sexist, racist and homophobic as well. It's just that some countries don't have that developed correctness or don't have their minorities vocal enough, to stop these issues.

To my knowledge lot of Japan's & Korea's racist caricatures from the 80 & 90s, were adopted from western media, but they themselves don't connect it with racism because they don't have the history. They just think if we do it, then its fine.

[Cipher]

Dude, I like Pan in GT as well. Even though it's kind of BS she doesn't get Super Saiyan (at least within the series) and Toei hands her that one really stupid "Girls get stronger when they cry" moment. Which, ugh.

Other than that, though, I think she's a fun character, actually gets some development, and totally makes sense as a version of Goku's cosmically strong granddaughter who's been raised in fairly normal circumstances without grandpa around. I love that she kind of resents him when he first shows back up.

I could bet you can find a lot more positive portrayals of black characters there, than you will in the west, even though the west has more of them. Why? Because they aren't as afraid to do it when they have interest in so, and write them as characters in context to the universe and not purposely as bigoted tokenized stereotypes or covertly intended slurs.

Woah, no. Japan does not have a healthy relationship with black people. It's incredibly racist. I heard the craziest things/got the strangest questions about black people ever during my study abroad there. It just stems from a different place than it does in the West, where we have complicated race relations built into our history. It stems more from a place of confusion. I'm not sure if your overall treatment would be better or worse than it would be in the States. You wouldn't have quite the same kind of institutionalized maliciousness (though good luck getting people to treat you as something other than a novelty if you're non-Japanese appearing in general, and there are parts where racism and xenophobia still run strong), but you also wouldn't have the support and racial awareness the U.S. and other Western countries offer as a response to their history.

Japan at least doesn't have the social biases we do to dictate how they interpret "foreign" character cultures

The thing is, it weirdly does, in part because it imports so much of our media. It's kind of a mess.

I might just be talking out my ass though, so hopefully someone who's actually had the experience of being black in Japan can weigh in. I can only speak to what I encountered, which was, uh, "confusing" to say the least.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Dude, I like Pan in GT as well. Even though it's kind of BS she doesn't get Super Saiyan (at least within the series) and Toei hands her that one really stupid "Girls get stronger when they cry" moment. Which, ugh.

I'd rather she didn't get it. I got real tired of the expectation that if you're a Saiyan, but default you get it. The form is so meaningless now anyway it wouldn't make a difference but only genericize her more.

Other than that, though, I think she's a fun character, actually gets some development, and totally makes sense as a version of Goku's cosmically strong granddaughter who's been raised in fairly normal circumstances without grandpa around. I love that she kind of resents him when he first shows back up.

Exactly, it makes sense that she didn't trust the validity in Goku after being turned into a kid. She treated him like a dumb little brother, until he went Ooozaru, and lost his mind, she had to remind him of himself from what she respected of him. Then when he went SSJ4 she believed in him. Rare characterization in DB, but power levels define everything in this fanbase.

Woah, no. Japan does not have a healthy relationship with black people. It's incredibly racist. I heard the craziest things/got the strangest questions about black people ever during my study abroad there. It just stems from a different place than it does in the West, where we have complicated race relations built into our history. It stems more from a place of confusion. I'm not sure if your overall treatment would be better or worse than it would be in the States. You wouldn't have quite the same kind of institutionalized maliciousness (though good luck getting people to treat you as something other than a novelty if you're non-Japanese appearing in general, and there are parts where racism and xenophobia still run strong), but you also wouldn't have the support and racial awareness the U.S. and other Western countries offer as a response to their history.

True, I could be over assuming their neutrality based on their general aloofness in media, but xenophobia is a strong thing in eastern culture, but understandably to me. While I don't equal it as racism without the intent of someone assertively diminishing someone on a personalized bias, I don't know how racism is played out in Japan if beyond that. If a Japanese person asked me "Why do black people...." I would know they just see it in our media and just an assumed that generalization. While in the west, that skewed scope is intentionally projected to invoke these prejudices.

I might just be talking out my ass though, so hopefully someone who's actually had the experience of being black in Japan can weigh in. I can only speak to what I encountered which was, uh, "confusing" to say the least.

So am I unfortunately. I just assume this out of my own naive, hypothetical comparison.

[gogeta97]

Okay, as a bisexual male who unironically ships adult Goten and Trunks(don't judge me) and unironically uses the term "SJW" I'd like to weigh in here. I'm a bit new to the Dragon Ball series as a whole. I've seen the majority of Z, a good chunk of GT and Super and very little of DB I am not quite the expert a lot of the other posters in this thread are on the series, so forgive me if I say something that's a bit off or totally wrong. Anyways, I am kind of annoyed with this western trend of picking apart every piece of media to see which bits are "problematic" or not. I think it is very cool that we live in such a socially conscious age due to a genuine fear of repeating some of the evils that we have committed in the past(although no race or country is innocent, the levels of evil just vary)however I do think that in recent years that has made us a bit paranoid in a way and honestly, unable to take a joke. From the bits I've seen with General Blue he really doesn't bother me. Sure some of the jokes made with him are cheap laughs but it doesn't really bother me. The closest I've come to being genuinely offended by the series is that gay fighter at the end of Z who I believe Goten calls "not normal". Although that bothered me a bit I was easily able to brush it off. Those Native Americans in Dragonball(Upa and Borra?) seem a little stereotypical but in a probably the most inoffensive way possible. It's rather unfortunate that Mr. Popo is clearly based on "Sambo imagery" as it's called, but no one really seems to care. They are say "he's just a genie" or acknowledge that he's racist and move on. Bulma's character has always seemed rather clever to me as she seems to have a pretty stereotypical personality yet is a brilliant scientist at the same time. Something I find a bit problematic that no one has acknowledged is the fact that the series has occasionally pushed the idea that it's okay for women to abuse men, specifically their significant others, physically because "men can take it". I know they have genuine fights between men and women, and I'm not trying to say that's offends more is the ONLY thing worth talking about but it still is worth talking about imo. Now, positive portrayals of women and minorities in popular media is totally cool and I support it 100% but I personally do not feel that I need some show to throw in an LGBT character to validate my identity and myself as a person, I'm saying this as someone who has gotten shit for being and genuinely struggled with it for a while. Let's be honest here, white, straight people are much more likely to get up in arms about this stuff than anyone else. And that's actually pretty cool but it can be a bit condescending. I don't need people to be offended for me on my behalf and I ESPECIALLY don't need them to speak for me either. I use the term "SJW"s because they are the worst about this. They think all minorities are a hivemind that fit into their own preconceived box, and when they don't they have "internalized misogyny/racism/etc." They bullied a tumblr artist to the point of attempting suicide because she made fan art that they found "problematic"(one of which was a fat cartoon character drawn slightly skinnier, if you're interested in this look up "The Zamii incident) I could go on, but it would make this post much longer than it already is. My point here is that too much of a good thing will always be bad and there really are people who claim to fight for "social justice" that do way more harm than good. Sorry for long rant but I have always been very passionate about social issues, while at the same time trying not to go overboard. I believe that these things can be rather upsetting and have negative affects but I also believe that EVERYONE should be able to poke fun at each from time to time.

[Cipher]

*snip*

Fair enough! I've probably gone a little overboard in my posts here too. Dragon Ball's chill and mostly pretty good with this stuff--when it's not, it's clearly a product of its era. I just get frustrated when people are like, "I don't see how this could ever be an issue," and that gets into philosophical arguments about media and fiction that are way beyond DB alone.

[gogeta97]

*snip*

Fair enough! I've probably gone a little overboard in my posts here too. Dragon Ball's chill and mostly pretty good with this stuff--when it's not, it's clearly a product of its era. I just get frustrated when people are like, "I don't see how this could ever be an issue," and that gets into philosophical arguments about media and fiction that are way beyond DB alone.

Yeah I don't blame you for snipping that. I totally agree that anyone who can't see why these would be issues is either TFS Goku levels of naive or a straight up idiot. I just think people can over exaggerate their severity and impact sometimes(and I am not trying to say that they have no impact by the way)


Also, if that user who was posting earlier in the thread that homosexuality is "bad" and something kids "shouldn't be exposed to" is still here, are you willing to state why? It's fine if you don't but I am genuinely curious. Especially since you seemed to mention that you are not a religious fundamentalist.

[rereboy]

Yeah.

As someone who teaches history, the whole "we can't possibly comprehend why they did these things" just pisses me off. My whole job is about understanding other cultures, and helping other people to. It's not even especially difficult, if you work at it. I mean, you'll never fully put yourself in the shoes of another person or culture, but no one should realistically expect themselves to.

Why do you often bring up your profession?

[MCDaveG]

To my knowledge lot of Japan's & Korea's racist caricatures from the 80 & 90s, were adopted from western media, but they themselves don't connect it with racism because they don't have the history. They just think if we do it, then its fine.

That's not exactly true, because Japanese are racist, in the black and white (not races, but opposite of gray) view everyone in the western world pursues in case of racism, works in Japan on all other races, except for Japanese.
You can find few enlightened Japanese people, that will talk with you, as they have bigger world view but, what can happen to you mostly is that when you are fluent in Japanese, but visually, you are not,
they will still ignore you speaking Japanese and will try to answer back with their broken english.
They are hardcore nacionalists in heart and don't accept anyone. So there is no problem with people with darker skin tones in Japan only, but with Chinese, Koreans, Europeans etc.
You can't also apply what you see in anime to the real world, as anime is minor part of the culture and isn't pursued by general population that much, as it is with children.

I find it funny, how people in the western world capitalize racism of rheir own minorities, but bigheadedly don't include themselves as a minority somewhere else. I think it's kind of hypocrisy.
You can ask my friend, who went to Japan for a year and Japanese were making fun of him behind his back, because they didn't know he was fluent. As he hit them back sometimes, they were fake-polite and bought him a drink for example.
Or my wife, whom studied a Japanese school, but in the end, she quit and she is going on psychoteraphy to get her self-esteem back.

I think that the opposite extreme isn't good either, like Will Smith and Oscars. That man lost all my respect that day. I really hate this opportunistic ''I don't have this only because I am black, blue, green, yellow!''
People like King or Malcolm X have my foremost respect. Not these opportunistic a-holes with bunch of rich kids fighting for the peace on the planet behind their back.
I technically grew up in gipsy ghetto, got my ass kicked many times so I really have low tolerance on black and white western world view, the two extremes.

[Ringworm128]

It was made for Japanese boys in the age range of thinking girls have cooties. Also I find most "bad" portrayals of women are usually blamed on her not being some over the top action girl, like there is something wrong with being effeminate
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... earDresses

[Footlong Shoe]

It was made for Japanese boys in the age range of thinking girls have cooties. Also I find most "bad" portrayals of women are usually blamed on her not being some over the top action girl, like there is something wrong with being effeminate
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... earDresses

This has always bothered me. What's the problem with having a girl that wants to be feminine?

[gogeta97]

It was made for Japanese boys in the age range of thinking girls have cooties. Also I find most "bad" portrayals of women are usually blamed on her not being some over the top action girl, like there is something wrong with being effeminate
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... earDresses

This has always bothered me. What's the problem with having a girl that wants to be feminine?

It's funny a lot of girls irl that genuinely enjoy leading a more stereotypically feminine life are typically anti-femenists/not femenists. Nothing wrong with either though.

Forcing gender roles and what not on people is really the only time they are a problem. But I 100% do understand why the upset some people.

[Kamiccolo9]

I mention my job when it is relevant to the discussion. In replying to a comment about people being unable to understand other cultures, my being a history teacher is totally relevant to my counterargument that, yes, it is possible to understand other cultures. I know, because I do it for a living.

It's not like I go around spouting off "Nappa can't be at 4000, I know because I'm a teacher." I bring it up when it is relevant to the conversation.

If you don't like that, then ignore me. I did a fairly good job of ignoring you for a year or so (having had you blocked since at least the M15 thread) , but you constantly singling out individual lines of my posts, and replying with some worthless one-liner that has nothing to do with the conversation finally broke me. Congrats. It takes some real perseverance to continue singling out a person who has not responded to dozens of your posts for a year, but I guess you have nothing better to do.

If the topic calls for it, I'm going to mention my job. It gives me a unique perspective on several topics that many members here lack, and it allows me to contribute in ways they cannot. If that is so abhorrent to you, I suggest that you kindly look the other way, and mind your own business.

Thank you and good day.

[TekTheNinja]

Sintzu, you appear to have bought into a lot of rhetoric painting homosexulity as both deviant and teachable.

If someone wants to live that way then fine, I have no problem with that but schools and the media shouldn't be telling kids that it's normal.

NO. JUST NO.

Kids should learn that it IS normal. This way of thinking is why so many homosexual people (especially youths) get depression problems and such. This makes people feel like there something wrong with them and keep their feelings bottled up.

YOU are part of the problem.

[rereboy]

I mention my job when it is relevant to the discussion. In replying to a comment about people being unable to understand other cultures, my being a history teacher is totally relevant to my counterargument that, yes, it is possible to understand other cultures. I know, because I do it for a living.

It's not like I go around spouting off "Nappa can't be at 4000, I know because I'm a teacher." I bring it up when it is relevant to the conversation.

If you don't like that, then ignore me. I did a fairly good job of ignoring you for a year or so (having had you blocked since at least the M15 thread) , but you constantly singling out individual lines of my posts, and replying with some worthless one-liner that has nothing to do with the conversation finally broke me. Congrats. It takes some real perseverance to continue singling out a person who has not responded to dozens of your posts for a year, but I guess you have nothing better to do.

If the topic calls for it, I'm going to mention my job. It gives me a unique perspective on several topics that many members here lack, and it allows me to contribute in ways they cannot. If that is so abhorrent to you, I suggest that you kindly look the other way, and mind your own business.

Thank you and good day.

I only mentioned it because I've seen you do it various times and you seemed to use it as a sort of argument that stands on itself, which is a kind of weird thing to do on the (anonymous) internet. First, having a certain profession or a certain academic background will certainly increase the odds of a person knowing more about a subject than another person, but it doesn't really guarantee that the person will be actually right regarding that specific matter and the other person will be wrong. Second, on the (anonymous) internet, anyone can claim to be anything, so it's rather useless in a debate online.

You can have me blocked or ignore me if you want, I don't really care much about that nor do I believe in "internet enemies", I honestly don't even remember what the M15 thread was, and I don't find the ignore option useful because even users that usually don't post anything that interests me end up posting something that might interest me. In any case, I assure you that most of time I don't pay much attention to the username of the posts I'm responding to, nor do I pay much attention to usernames in general, and thus if I end up responding to your posts frequently is simply because I disagree with you often or I find something that I want to comment in your posts. However, when I saw you bring up your profession in the topic, I seemed to remember you bringing up your profession a few other times so I got curious about it.

[VegettoEX]

Your personal beefs* are your personal beefs and have no place in the discussion here - thanks.

(*with each other, not the topic at-hand)

[rereboy]

Your personal beefs are your personal beefs and have no place in the discussion here - thanks.

On my part, like I said, I don't have any beef, wether it's with him, or really with anyone on the forum, but I will conclude the conversation if that is your wish.

What I'm talking about is that only a small number of countries act like it's normal and encourage it.

They're both bad habits that shouldn't be looked at as normal.

Just because they are a minority it doesn't make it ok to imply that they are abnormal, because that would encourage discrimination and hate. Also, they aren't simply "bad habits" like smoking because it's not really a choice that they made.

In any case, like I argued before, that goes way beyond what is actually there in Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball uses stereotypes and these kind of notions to create some lighthearted humor. Almost all humor is basically making fun of something. What's important is to look at the intentions and I don't really believe there's any kind of ill intentions worthy of debate behind Dragon Ball.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

They are hardcore nationalists in heart and don't accept anyone. So there is no problem with people with darker skin tones in Japan only, but with Chinese, Koreans, Europeans etc. You can't also apply what you see in anime to the real world, as anime is minor part of the culture and isn't pursued by general population that much, as it is with children. You can ask my friend, who went to Japan for a year and Japanese were making fun of him behind his back, because they didn't know he was fluent.

Well thats an interesting insight I didn't know was factored. Thats probably the most common thing in all Eastern countries or Eastern communities you will be exposed to. Then again, there is also racism there as well because of the positive bias they have on the image of blonde-hair. You are still a foreigner there they might not see as equal to them, but I don't think you would be treated as bad as you would be if you just had dark-skinned as a foreigner. How racism works in the East is very complicated, more so than I assumed. Its actually more cut-and-dry in the West because people make it clear and personal with you. They don't hide it behind a fake public-face, but rather just abrasively deny it existing to make you look delusional.

I think that the opposite extreme isn't good either, like Will Smith and Oscars. That man lost all my respect that day. I really hate this opportunistic ''I don't have this only because I am black, blue, green, yellow!'' Not these opportunistic a-holes with bunch of rich kids fighting for the peace on the planet behind their back.

Addressing racism in hollywood is very complicated, because that is where the economic segregation is. Its not untrue that there are far less opportunities let alone casting calls for PoC in media in general, outside of the token quota-guy. The only reason why it didn't look genuine on Jada Smith's report of it, was because Will is one of the most circulated Black actors already in Hollywood outside the token box and at best a measly award is often just a consolation novelty after that. Even when these prejudices are averted with latent positive reception in contrary to them, they're usually just taken as flukes as opposed to evidence. Then, movies breaking that mold would be held up to a higher expectation that can be followed with a higher consequence, if it fails while trying to propose alternatives using the lead as an excuse and not just bad writing or direction. Like with the New Ghost Busters film. It looks terrible because of horrible characterization and unfunny jokes, not because the casts are all women.

[rereboy]

Addressing racism in hollywood is very complicated, because that is where the economic segregation is. Its not untrue that there are far less opportunities let alone casting calls for PoC in media in general, outside of the token quota-guy. The only reason why it didn't look genuine on Jada Smith's report of it, was because Will is one of the most circulated Black actors already in Hollywood outside the token box and at best a measly award is often just a consolation novelty after that. Even when these prejudices are averted with latent positive reception in contrary to them, they're usually just taken as flukes as opposed to evidence. Then, movies breaking that mold would be held up to a higher expectation that can be followed with a higher consequence, if it fails while trying to propose alternatives using the lead as an excuse and not just bad writing or direction. Like with the New Ghost Busters film. It looks terrible because of horrible characterization and unfunny jokes, not because the casts are all women.

I don't think there's any way for it to look genuine when we consider the statistics: http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero ... m-and-race. If anything, it should be the latinos complaining. And honestly, why should people be checking these kind of statistics anyway? The awards should go to whoever deserves it, regardless of race.

[Zephyr]

Not anything to do with the present conversation, but some of the earlier posts gave me a thought: I don't see anything inherently wrong with stereotypes in media. They are not intrinsically incompatible with an egalitarian society. I think it would be totally fine to put in even the most egregious stereotypes, so long as they were sufficiently balanced out by non-stereotypical portrayals.

Stereotypes are a legitimately enjoyable form of humor, and it would be a shame to see them go away. However, they must be used more sparingly, as massive media franchises are indeed very reflective of the general culture, which then comes to reflect them.

I'm approaching this from a very ambivalent position. I appreciate both sides of the argument, both values in conflict here. It is very clear how in the very big picture, an over-saturation of stereotypical thinking and imbalance in class power results in increased violence (to which I am both inherently averse, and rationally, ethically, and articulately opposed to. On the other hand, I also view the humorous nature of stereotypes as inherently valuable. The ideal scenario is to maximize harmony between the two. Thus, keep them largely on the backburner, and then use them when they will produce less harm.

---

On the topic of whether or not Toriyama ought to be judged for it, I don't think so. I can see two reasons for judging the man: his character, and the consequences of his actions.

I don't think it makes sense to judge his character. He did not choose his birth place or time, he did not choose his genetics, his upbringing, his opportunities, his peers, his community, etc, etc. All of these factors are largely responsible for an individual's character. And unless they have the privilege and opportunity to learn about the ways one may monitor and shape his own character, then he's less likely to do it. I don't see any other good reason to hold him accountable for his own character, prejudices, preferences, and personality quirks.

What of the consequences? One could argue that in the long term, Toriyama doing what he did lead to this very conversation. The very fact that the conversation is taking place is a positive. Conversing about problems is the first step in spreading awareness and critical thought about it. This is helpful for solving the problems.

[EXBadguy]

I say as long as you don't nitpick the hell outta everything like these SJWs do on social media and blow shit out of proportion (i.e. "Let's shut down Toriyama"), then I say it's okay. Myself, I'm aware that DB has racist/sexist jokes, but what the hell, are they gonna kill you?

I just said I don't care how people chose to live so I'm clearly not a religions fundamentalist, I just think LGBTs shouldn't be in a kids product.

What you said reminds me of something. Just curious, if you watched Legend of Korra, what did you think of the final scene?