Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by dragon ball truth » Sun May 22, 2016 8:03 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Something tells me nobody has ever created a story before. Good writing is not shoe-horning nack into the story every character. It is doing what you eant in a clear, enticing and fun manner. If Toriyama has no interest in doing something, he has no interest. If he's going to putsome effort into something he might as well do what pleases him. If you don'tlike it, go elsewhere. Nobody is accomplishing anything.
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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun May 22, 2016 8:34 pm

No, he's just a hasbeen writer that most likely forgot what made his most famous creation so popular and influential in the first place.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: Does Akira hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by Bagginses » Sun May 22, 2016 9:28 pm

Kuririn Fan wrote:Yeah, we're crazy, man.
I never thought that Vegeta drawing dicks on Gohan and Yamcha could be a joke.
Maybe it was my sleep deprivation who made me thought this could be serious. :lol:

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Re: Does Akira hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by Kid Buu » Sun May 22, 2016 10:54 pm

Saikyo no Senshi wrote:No,he does not. Gohan and Yamucha aren't that interesting to Toriyama which is why they aren't that relevant but it does not mean he hates them.

- Travis
Agreed.

If anything it seems that fans hate on Toriyama and Toei for not catering to their favourite character, as opposed to Toryiama hating on their favourite character.
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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by TekTheNinja » Sun May 22, 2016 11:32 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Something tells me nobody has ever created a story before. Good writing is not shoe-horning nack into the story every character. It is doing what you eant in a clear, enticing and fun manner. If Toriyama has no interest in doing something, he has no interest. If he's going to putsome effort into something he might as well do what pleases him. If you don'tlike it, go elsewhere. Nobody is accomplishing anything.
I've created multiple stories, and using only one or two characters while the rest of the characters just stand in the background is NOT good writing.
DBZAOTA482 wrote:No, he's just a hasbeen writer that most likely forgot what made his most famous creation so popular and influential in the first place.
Pretty much this. He's the new George Lucas, intent on trying to ruin his own franchise.
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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by Cipher » Sun May 22, 2016 11:42 pm

The reality is that the characters should simply be written out--they have other things going on. Gohan has a home and career away from fighting. Yamcha has ... whatever Yamcha's doing, but he needn't show up every time Goku and Vegeta sneeze, especially where large threats are concerned at this point. The better alternative for these characters is to simply see them less, have their development and role in the ensemble be done. Such is life. That's not bad writing. Gohan's actually close to this, and the way episode #44 presented him as Goku's strong, but super-smart, family-oriented son really clicked for me, in terms of imagining how new viewers may see the character. If anything, it's the continuous teasing that he may hop back into fighting on a level equal to Goku and Vegeta, or the spotlight on him when the episode doesn't really call for it, that's damaging.

Yamcha and Gohan are at the point where they should be sometimes characters, if the plot at hand really calls for their talents or dynamic. That is fine. Let them be. People come and go, goals change, and at some point that's inevitable in the management of such a large cast. I'd rather have people reach this conclusion than argue that they be relevant at every turn. I'd rather have the series make that commitment and, frankly, I think it's moved closer in that direction than most people realize, so I can't even fault it too much for that.

The other problem Dragon Ball has, though, and this is fair, is that it's built up a cast of characters who really would all want to show up when big, super-powered martial-arts-y things are happening around them. And, they mostly do. So how do you develop them enough to be able to hold weight in those moments or not fall into background commentary as soon as the big guns arrive? I don't know. That one's tough. You either create situations that move the action away from everyone in the peanut gallery having access, or you take things so dire and frantic that they have to all gather up to complete some side goal before biting it a la the Boo arc. Neither one is super sustainable, but Dragon Ball's a series that had two endings written for it twenty years ago, so there you go. It could still find ways to churn out a few arcs being selective with its supporting characters.

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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by IAmTheMilkMan » Mon May 23, 2016 5:49 am

Cipher wrote:The reality is that the characters should simply be written out--they have other things going on. Gohan has a home and career away from fighting. Yamcha has ... whatever Yamcha's doing, but he needn't show up every time Goku and Vegeta sneeze, especially where large threats are concerned at this point. The better alternative for these characters is to simply see them less, have their development and role in the ensemble be done. Such is life. That's not bad writing. Gohan's actually close to this, and the way episode #44 presented him as Goku's strong, but super-smart, family-oriented son really clicked for me, in terms of imagining how new viewers may see the character. If anything, it's the continuous teasing that he may hop back into fighting on a level equal to Goku and Vegeta, or the spotlight on him when the episode doesn't really call for it, that's damaging.
Wow, I never thought about it that way, but you're absolutely right. Lunch is a good example of this. Before reading your post, I had always been upset that she just up and vanished after the 23rd Budokai and was never heard from again. Sure, she was never a terribly significant character, but I always enjoyed whenever she had something to add to the proceedings and she became one of my favorites. So ever since she disappeared, I had been really upset at Toriyama for seemingly tossing her by the wayside. However, you just made me realize that simply writing her out was probably the best thing for her character, given the alternative. I like that she moved on and is off doing something else with her life. I'm glad that she didn't turn into another one of the many wasted side characters. (Though I'm still upset about her being robbed of that panel at the end of the manga in favor of Android 17.)
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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon May 23, 2016 11:35 am

TekTheNinja wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:No, he's just a hasbeen writer that most likely forgot what made his most famous creation so popular and influential in the first place.
Pretty much this. He's the new George Lucas, intent on trying to ruin his own franchise.
Except nothing about Toriyama's original work, the manga, has changed in the slightest. All 42 volumes are still available for purchase with no retrospective differences. So he's nothing like George Lucas.

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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by Kuririn Fan » Mon May 23, 2016 12:10 pm

IAmTheMilkMan wrote: Wow, I never thought about it that way, but you're absolutely right. Lunch is a good example of this. Before reading your post, I had always been upset that she just up and vanished after the 23rd Budokai and was never heard from again.
She was mentioned in the beginning of Saiyan arc that she went chasing after Tenshinhan 5 years ago. And yeah, she would be much more fitting than 17, and even the dialogue itself proves that. Oh well, at least Toei added her.

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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by Pokewhiz7 » Mon May 23, 2016 12:22 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:No, he's just a hasbeen writer that most likely forgot what made his most famous creation so popular and influential in the first place.
Pretty much this. He's the new George Lucas, intent on trying to ruin his own franchise.
Except nothing about Toriyama's original work, the manga, has changed in the slightest. All 42 volumes are still available for purchase with no retrospective differences. So he's nothing like George Lucas.
The only way, as far as I know, to read every chapter, in color, without the Kanzenban edits, is to track down the original Jump issues. It's not like there is no similarity at all.

(Well, in Japanese, at least.)

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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by SingleFringe&Sparks » Mon May 23, 2016 3:25 pm

I just don't think Toriyama sees Gohan in the same exaggerated personal relevance that his fanbase does. He didn't destroy the character just because his fanbase wants him to be the sole, OP villain-sweeper. However I do think he was just retired in Super and past all story relevance. If he was brought back, it would just be to entertain his fanbase through the flashy fights and nothing of any related substance. I doubt he'd care about planet Salad, but fighting an evil Goku might bring an excuse to reconnect him, if to just that.
Zephyr wrote:The fandom's collective fetishizing of "moments" is also ridiculous to me. No, not everyone needs a fucking "shine" moment. If that's all you want, then all you want is fanservice, rather than an actual coherent story. And of course those aren't mutually exclusive; you could have a coherent story with "shine" moments! But if a story is perfectly coherent (and I'm really not seeing any compelling arguments that this one is anything but, despite constantly recurring, really poorly reasoned, attempts to argue otherwise), and you're bemoaning the lack of "shine" moments as a reason for the story's poor quality, then you're letting your thirst for "shine" moments obfuscate your ability to detect basic storytelling when it's right in front of you.

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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by Bagginses » Tue May 24, 2016 12:38 am

Cipher just replied to a PM from me, and confirmed that the ''drawing dicks'' stuff was a joke:
Cipher wrote:
Bagginses wrote:Subject: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?
Cipher wrote:There's that scene in Super when Vegeta sneaks up on both of them when they're sleeping and just draws a big ol' dick on both of their faces that really surprised me! I didn't think they could get away with such a thing in children's shows anymore. They weren't even in the same place--Vegeta just tells Bulma he's going out and sneaks into both of their houses. It really shocked me that Toriyama would write something like that.
You were joking, right? English is not my first language so some stuff gets over my head sometimes. :lol: But answer this, please.
Yes, sorry! Didn't realize that might be confusing for non-native speakers. It was very much a joke about how seriously some people are taking certain characters.
This is for those who didn't see Super and don't know whether he was saying was true. :lol:

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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by Araki » Tue May 24, 2016 1:51 am

TekTheNinja wrote:
JulieYBM wrote:Something tells me nobody has ever created a story before. Good writing is not shoe-horning nack into the story every character. It is doing what you eant in a clear, enticing and fun manner. If Toriyama has no interest in doing something, he has no interest. If he's going to putsome effort into something he might as well do what pleases him. If you don'tlike it, go elsewhere. Nobody is accomplishing anything.
I've created multiple stories, and using only one or two characters while the rest of the characters just stand in the background is NOT good writing.
And you're famous for how many of those?
On a serious note, that has nothing to do with good writing. If you can't come up with a good story making only a few characters to be important, and replacing the old with new ones, then you're not a good writer at all.

I'll give an example here using two popular sports series that are entire opposites: Major and Captain Tsubasa.

Captain Tsubasa is about a bunch of soccer players who've been playing together (and against each other) since they were kids. They grow up, become pros, represent Japan in the Olympics, World Cups, are hired by big teams all over the world. Pretty much all the important cast from their childhood kept up with Tsubasa, the main character, and are always around him to this day. They're not as famous as Tsubasa, but they've all become stars in their teams and keep playing for Japan.

Then we have Major, a baseball series. We follow Goro Shigeno, the MC, since he was a little kid. On his way to become a pro and play the MLB, he makes new friends that are important in his life for a while, and play alongside or against him, but it seems none of them can keep up with the main character. Only a couple of people he came across actually reaches a national level and the MLB, where Honda has a mostly new cast around him, with his old friends (almost all of them gave up on baseball long ago) making few appearances. And naturally, the story keeps centering around Goro (and his best friend, at most).

Now ask any sports manga/anime fan which one of them has better writing.
(i like both Captain Tsubasa and Major, for that matter)

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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Tue May 24, 2016 5:34 am

Araki Wins. BURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRN.

Sorry, couldnt resist.
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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by Kuririn Fan » Tue May 24, 2016 3:04 pm

Bagginses wrote:Cipher just replied to a PM from me, and confirmed that the ''drawing dicks'' stuff was a joke.
That's awesome!

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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by Bagginses » Tue May 24, 2016 6:28 pm

Kuririn Fan wrote:
Bagginses wrote:Cipher just replied to a PM from me, and confirmed that the ''drawing dicks'' stuff was a joke.
That's awesome!
Are you trying a pathetic attempt to be sarcastic? Then go fuck yourself, you worthless piece of shit. Not everyone has English has their first language. And, by the way, which one out of any of your posts are ''awesome'' by any stretch?

Sorry, I am just in no good mood today for stupid, smug people.

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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue May 24, 2016 8:12 pm

Bagginses wrote:
Kuririn Fan wrote:
Bagginses wrote:Cipher just replied to a PM from me, and confirmed that the ''drawing dicks'' stuff was a joke.
That's awesome!
Are you trying a pathetic attempt to be sarcastic? Then go fuck yourself, you worthless piece of shit. Not everyone has English has their first language. And, by the way, which one out of any of your posts are ''awesome'' by any stretch?

Sorry, I am just in no good mood today for stupid, smug people.
Woah, buddy. Take it easy. There's a different way you could have worded that. :?

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Re: Does Akira hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by funrush » Tue May 24, 2016 8:18 pm

LightBing wrote:If find the idea that the author hates any of his characters beyond ridiculous.
I think Toriyama said he hated Chi-Chi, or at least drawing her, and he married her off to Goku to punish himself because then he'd have to draw her more.

Toriyama doesn't hate Gohan, he wanted Gohan to be the main character of the Buu arc initially.

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Re: Does Akira hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by HeroR » Wed May 25, 2016 9:52 am

funrush wrote:
LightBing wrote:If find the idea that the author hates any of his characters beyond ridiculous.
I think Toriyama said he hated Chi-Chi, or at least drawing her, and he married her off to Goku to punish himself because then he'd have to draw her more.

Toriyama doesn't hate Gohan, he wanted Gohan to be the main character of the Buu arc initially.
He never said he hated Chi-Chi. Although he's not the biggest fan of her either.

Overall, Toriyama is more or less indifferent to his characters unlike other manga writers who can get quite invested. He says he likes Goku and Piccolo, but he has no problem killing Goku off, although he did apologize to Goku, and Piccolo's role become downgraded to a mentor position and he isn't one of the prime fighters anymore. Which is really how you should write. He may have favorites, but he isn't going to let that get in a way of telling a story or following natural character development like Gohan.

Fans have to accept, Gohan was never a fighter. He wants to live a peaceful life with a steady job with his wife and family. He doesn't want to mooch off his father-in-law. And honestly, it seems most Gohan fans only really liked Gohan during the Cell Games. I think most of his fanbase actually don't like him as a character, but just like the idea of him being the strongest and a badass.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Does Toriyama hate Gohan and Yamcha?

Post by TekTheNinja » Wed May 25, 2016 11:16 am

Araki wrote:And you're famous for how many of those?
Well fuck you too. -_-
Araki wrote:Captain Tsubasa is about a bunch of soccer players who've been playing together (and against each other) since they were kids. They grow up, become pros, represent Japan in the Olympics, World Cups, are hired by big teams all over the world. Pretty much all the important cast from their childhood kept up with Tsubasa, the main character, and are always around him to this day. They're not as famous as Tsubasa, but they've all become stars in their teams and keep playing for Japan.

Then we have Major, a baseball series. We follow Goro Shigeno, the MC, since he was a little kid. On his way to become a pro and play the MLB, he makes new friends that are important in his life for a while, and play alongside or against him, but it seems none of them can keep up with the main character. Only a couple of people he came across actually reaches a national level and the MLB, where Honda has a mostly new cast around him, with his old friends (almost all of them gave up on baseball long ago) making few appearances. And naturally, the story keeps centering around Goro (and his best friend, at most).

Now ask any sports manga/anime fan which one of them has better writing.
(i like both Captain Tsubasa and Major, for that matter)
Completely unfair comparison. I've never seen either anime because I'm not a big fan of most sports anime, but by the way you describe it, the past characters in Major aren't flat out disrespected like they are in Dragon Ball, and also you say they are actually GONE from the story for the most part. As brought up in a different thread, that's probably for the best if nothing is going to be done with the character. (The thread was regarding Launch)

Dragon Ball on the other hand is full of teases that the other characters will do something. Gohan's training again and seemingly something is going on with his character? Nope. Not going to do anything with that. Piccolo and Buu are in the tournament? Maybe they'll win some fights for once! Nope. Buu is fails the test, and Piccolo gets an episode where he loses and is disrespected by the other characters.

Also I'm gonna assume Goro Shigeno is a likable character who you want to see succeed. Goku in DBS is NOT. He's incredibly annoying and is less mature than even when he was a kid, so it is only natural to not want him to do everything. Vegeta has his moments, but is kinda still just a prick.

Lastly, Gohan was brought up to become one of the main characters if not THE main character, but has been totally shafted. There goes all that development.

A better thing to compare DB to is Fullmetal Alchemist. A masterpiece of a series (my personal favorite) that utilizes the full potential of all of it's cast.
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:Araki Wins. BURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRN.

Sorry, couldnt resist.
Ahem... -_-
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saiyanvegetable wrote:Trunks slowly realizes this is not the past he came to when he fought Cell, instead he finds himself trapped in a world with hollow caricatures, a talking cat, and a Goku who beat the heart virus but is suffering from retardation.

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