Dragon Ball's story arcs

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ABED
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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:27 pm

You see? You bring up Supernatural which perfectly could also be argued to consists of sub arcs. Yet the Lucifer thing is a perfect way to sum it up. By your logic you would never see it as "Lucifer arc"
Then you don't understand my argument. Lucifer was behind it all in those first 5 years. Freeza isn't behind Vegeta's actions. Vegeta would've gone after those Dragon Balls whether Freeza wanted it or not. And clearly Freeza wouldn't and didn't want Vegeta to use them to become immortal. Freeza isn't the boss at the end of the road. Vegeta and Freeza are two separate bosses. Whether Vegeta is acting independently is at the heart of the matter. Ruby, YED, and Lilith are acting on orders. The different seasons are mini arcs subsummed under the big mytharc.
That is totally irrelevant though. It is the other bits that count.
How is that irrelevant? How is the McGuffins being from outer space more relevant than Vegeta being insubordinate? In Buffy, the reason the final big bad is able to wreak havoc is because of what came before. Had Buffy not died, her friends wouldn't have brought her back, and had they not done that, then The First wouldn't have tried to kill all the Slayers. But those three seasons are distinct seasons.
the fact that almost everyone dies so they have no other choice but to explore space which was to conclude anyway after aliens arrived
That's just good storytelling. The consequences of one story arc lead to another. The two stories have two separate climaxes.
And that is my last word about this topic. I will not repeat that half-year old argument.
You seem to be getting upset that I don't remember a 6 month discussion. If you don't want to discuss it, fine, but don't get upset at anyone like they are pulling you into anything you don't want to do.
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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by Cetra » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:32 pm

ABED wrote:Freeza isn't behind Vegeta's actions. Vegeta would've gone after those Dragon Balls whether Freeza wanted it or not. And clearly Freeza wouldn't and didn't want Vegeta to use them to become immortal. Freeza isn't the boss at the end of the road. Vegeta and Freeza are two separate bosses.
Wrong. Just because someone can do something for himself does not mean he justifies a saga being named after him. Especially after Vegeta finds out that Freeza found out about the Dragon Balls because he actually was spying through scouters the entire time, pointing even more out how strong Freeza's control was and that they were not able to even go to the toilet without him knowing. But as said, I do not want to talk about it anymore. It has nothing to do with getting mad for you not remembering. It has something to do with you asking me a question without the intention of actually ending a discussion unless I say "yeah Vegeta deserves his own arc" as if what you say overrides everything that I said which actually did lead to a greater chain of events. Bringing in the words "good storytelling" in something as shallow as Dragon Ball which is not even supposed to have complex and good stotytelling shows how far away both of our opinions stand from each other. And to answer your "random mcguffins" thing: All the stuff I pointed out to be in Dragon Ball led to more. Your "Vegeta did not do it for Freeza" does not. And that is exactly why it is so relevant as aspect(s) for me to count it as one saga. As the existence of several things lead to the next thing, which I ultimately sum up as the Freeza saga. Just as I do not say "Cyborg Saga".

Anyway - I gave you an additional answer. I hope that helps. I will not do that eternally now.
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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:43 pm

Freeza isn't exerting any control over Vegeta with the scouter. Vegeta is just in the dark.
Bringing in the words "good storytelling" in something as shallow as Dragon Ball which is not even supposed to have complex and good stotytelling shows how far away both of our opinions stand from each other.
Complexity isn't the same thing as good. This argument is very weak. It is good storytelling when the events in a story lead to the next event. Causation and integration are elements of a good story. Instead of the events of a story being a bunch of "and then this happened, and then this happened" we have a case of "This happened, THEREFORE that happened, THEREFORE this happened."
as if what you say overrides everything that I said which actually did lead to a greater chain of events.
And that's the mark of a complete story arc, when the chain of events end?

And to answer your "random mcguffins" thing: All the stuff I pointed out to be in Dragon Ball led to more. Your "Vegeta did not do it for Freeza" does not. And that is exactly why it is so relevant as aspect(s) for me to count it as one saga. As the existence of several things lead to the next thing, which I ultimately sum up as the Freeza saga. Just as I do not say "Cyborg Saga".
I didn't call them random McGuffins. The Red Ribbon Army arc lead to the Cell arc, but I would still call them separate arc. Good writing requires events to lead to other events. The existence of Pilaf lead to Piccolo's resurrection but those are also two separate stories. The big differences between the cyborgs and Vegeta is their actions are a result of Cell and Trunks changing time. The mystery surrounding them is a result of Cell. Vegeta went to Earth to gain Immortality for himself. And there's no climax with the Cyborg "arc" which is a big part of what makes something an arc.
Last edited by ABED on Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by B » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:46 pm

I don't know about the Red Ribbon/Uranai Baba split. I mean, it makes as much sense as the Saiyan/Freeza split, but it's so short that it's hard to view it as its own thing. Not to mention, there's no real dip in quality(possibly the opposite) when the mini-tournament starts, so I very arbitrarily consider it all one thing.
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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by Kuririn Fan » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:49 pm

001-The Hunt for the Dragon Balls Arc (1-23) / (1-13)
002-The 21st Tenkaichi Budokai Arc (24-54) / (14-28)
003-The Red Ribbon Army Arc (55-112) / (29-83)
004-The 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai Arc (113-134) / (84-101)
005-The Piccolo Daimao Arc (135-165) / (102-132)
006-The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Arc (166-194) / (133-153)
007-The Saiyan Arc (195-241) / (1-35)
008-The Freeza Arc (242-329) / (36-117)
009-The Cell Arc (330-420) / (118-199)
010-The Majin Boo Arc (421-519) / (200-291)

This new Digest manga edition seems to agree with me so far (1-4), but even if it didn't, i don't give a fuck, this is my division. And BoG extended cut intro sort of agrees with me too - it shows beginning and characters from arcs 1-4, and then defeats of: Daimao (5), Junior (6), Vegeta (7), Freeza (8), Cell (9) and Boo (10).
My favorite is Boo, and least favorite, i hate to say it, but it's the first arc. I love it, it's hilarious and a cute, little introduction, but it got SO MUCH better after that.

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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:52 pm

B wrote:I don't know about the Red Ribbon/Uranai Baba split. I mean, it makes as much sense as the Saiyan/Freeza split, but it's so short that it's hard to view it as its own thing. Not to mention, there's no real dip in quality(possibly the opposite) when the mini-tournament starts, so I very arbitrarily consider it all one thing.
In this instance, I don't have a strong opinion, though I wouldn't consider the one big arc to be the Red Ribbon Army arc as Baba's tournament is tangential to the Red Ribbon Army. A big difference between this and the Saiyan/Freeza arcs is that Goku begins his quest at the beginning of the arc which brings him into conflict with the villains. In DBZ, The Saiyans come into conflict with Goku because they want the planet and the Dragon Balls. The quest for the Dragon Balls occurs as a result of the consequences of the arc.
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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by Kunzait_83 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:38 pm

Dragon Ball

1) Hunt for the Dragon Balls/Son Goku/Emperor Pilaf arc

2) 21st Tenkaichi Budokai/Jackie Chun arc
|
a) Kame Sennin's Training sub arc
b) Tournament proper

3) Red Ribbon army arc
|
a) Colonel Silver sub arc
b) Muscle Tower sub arc
c) General Blue sub arc
d) Tao Pai Pai/Karin Tower sub arc
e) General Red sub arc
f) Uranai Baba sub arc

4) 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai/Tenshinhan sub arc
|
a) Goku's training journey sub arc (anime-only)
b) Tournament proper

5) Piccolo Daimaio arc

6) 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai/Piccolo Majunior arc
|
a) Heavenly Training sub arc (anime only)
b) Tournament proper


Dragon Ball Z

7) Saiya-jin arc
|
a) Raditz sub arc
b) Training sub arc
c) Nappa and Vegeta sub arc

8 ) Namek/Freeza arc
|
a) Journey to Namek sub arc
b) Hunt for Namekian Dragon Balls sub arc
c) Ginyu Tokusentai sub arc
d) Battle against Freeza sub arc

*) Garlic Jr. arc (anime only)

9) Jinzoningen/Cell arc
|
a) Trunks/Mecha Freeza sub arc
b) Artificial Humans sub arc
c) Cell sub arc
d) Cell Games sub arc

*) Anoyoichi Budokai arc (anime only)

10) Majin Boo arc
|
a) Great Saiyaman sub arc
b) 25th Tenkaichi Budokai sub arc
c) Babidi sub arc
d) Fat Majin Boo sub arc
e) Super Boo/Fusion sub arc
f) Kid Boo/Kaioshin Realm sub arc
g) 28th Tenkaichi Budokai/Oob Epilogue


Dragon Ball GT

11a) Baby arc
|
a) Black Star Dragon Balls sub arc
b) Baby/Tsufuru sub arc

12a) Super 17 arc

13a) Evil Dragons arc


Dragon Ball Super

11b) Battle of Gods arc

12b) Revival of F arc

13b) Universe 6 arc

14b) Future Trunks/Black Goku arc

--------

I've always tended to place Uranai Baba as part of the Red Ribbon arc: it acts as a coda of sorts to that arc as its main focus is tying up its remaining loose ends (reviving Bora and Goku putting to rest his longing for Gohan) and doesn't really stand well on its own.

When overlooking sub arcs and anime-exclusive material, my division matches up exactly with Kuririn Fan's:

1) Hunt for the Dragon Balls
2) 21st Tenkaichi Budokai
3) Red Ribbon Army
4) 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai
5) Piccolo Daimao
6) 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
7) Saiya-jin
8 ) Freeza
9) Cell
10 Majin Boo
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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by andrewtuell1991 » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:14 pm

Manga / Original DB and Z animes

1. Search for the Dragon Balls (Ch. 1-23 / Eps 1-13)
2. 21st Tenkaichi Budokai (Ch. 24-54 / Eps 14-29)
3. Red Ribbon Army (Ch. 55-112 / Eps 30-78)
Filler. Goku's Solo Training (Eps 79-83)
4. 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai (Ch. 113-134 / Eps 84-101)
5. Piccolo Daimao (Ch. 135-165 / Eps 102-126)
Filler. Kami's Training (Eps 127-132)
6. 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai (Ch. 166-194 / Eps 133-148)
Filler. Flaming Wedding Dress (Eps 149-153)
7. Saiyan (Ch. 195-245 / Z 1-38 / Kai 1-18)
8. Freeza (Ch. 246-329 / Z 39-107 + Bardock TV Special / Kai 19-54)
Filler. Garlic Jr. (Z 108-117)
9. Cell (Ch. 330-420 + Trunks the Story / Z 118-194 + Trunks TV Special / Kai 55-98)
Filler. Anoyoichi Budokai (Z 195-199)
10. Majin Buu (Ch. 421-519 / Z 200-291 / Kai 99-159)

I really don't give a shit about GT so I'll move on to Super.

1. Beerus (BOG / 1-14)
Mini-arc #1. Training with Whis (15-18)
2. Golden Freeza (FnF / 19-27)
3. Champa (28-41)
Mini-arc #2. Monaka (42-46)
4. Future Trunks (47-??)

I believe some explanations are in order.

*I suppose one could group the Search for DBs and 21st TB arcs into a singular "Son Goku arc" but I don't like doing that as both arcs have different objectives, tones, and character usage. I also despise it when they try to group the beginning to the 22nd TB together as the "Boyhood arc". It's just grouping together a huge chuck of the story for no other reason than laziness.

*You may have noticed I moved the 21st TB - RRA split over by one episode. I do this for three reasons.
  • 1. Ep 29 contains the last five pages of manga chapter 54
    2. The Red Ribbon Army isn't even in this episode
    3. The episodes focuses on two participants from the 21st TB and continues a plot-point from said arc.
*I group Uranai Baba into the RRA arc since collectively they make up the 2nd Search for the Dragon Balls.

*I always try to separate pure filler arcs into there own thing.

*Ever since the colored manga came out I've moved the Saiyan-Freeza split from 241/242 to 245/246 and adjusted the splits in Z and Kai accordingly which makes so much more sense since there's a time skip of 2 months between the two. Ending the Saiyan arc on Ch. 241 is dumb because it just ends with Roshi waving and continues immediately into the next chapter. 242 is dumber because it ends mid-way through Goku trying to contact Kaio.

*Splitting Namek and Freeza is dumb because everything on Namek is about Freeza and neither half is a complete story by itself. Same logic for not splitting Android and Cell and I don't like calling the whole arc the Android arc because that would imply any android but Cell does anything of significance. Spoiler alert: they don't.

*The logic behind my splits for Super lies in whose shadow appears on the title card (or lack thereof for 15-18).

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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:51 pm

*I always try to separate pure filler arcs into there own thing.
Other than the Other world tournament and Garlic Jr., those filler arcs can either be viewed as part of the denouement of the previous arc or Act 1 of the next arc.
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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by lancerman » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:57 pm

Red Ribbon and Baba are the same thing to me. It's like a story with an epilogue to tie up loose ends. Goku is rewarded for his selfless heroics fighting the RR army by meeting is grandpa, getting the last dragon ball, and wishing Bora back to life. It doesn't work without the RR portion, and it has a full stop after where the story breaks.

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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by Kuririn Fan » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:01 pm

andrewtuell1991 wrote:Same logic for not splitting Android and Cell and I don't like calling the whole arc the Android arc because that would imply any android but Cell does anything of significance. Spoiler alert: they don't.
Daaamn, best explanation ever!
And ending Saiyan arc with chapter 241 isn't that bad - Vegeta leaves = arc ends. #242 introduces Namek idea and next arc begins!

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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by sintzu » Sun Jun 05, 2016 3:41 pm

Kuririn Fan wrote:Ending Saiyan arc with chapter 241 isn't that bad - Vegeta leaves = arc ends. #242 introduces Namek idea and next arc begins!
242-245 feel like an epilogue to the Saiyan arc instead of the next arc's beginning.
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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by Kuririn Fan » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:02 pm

sintzu wrote:
Kuririn Fan wrote:Ending Saiyan arc with chapter 241 isn't that bad - Vegeta leaves = arc ends. #242 introduces Namek idea and next arc begins!
242-245 feel like an epilogue to the Saiyan arc instead of the next arc's beginning.
Not really, but whatever.
Fuck, you guys made me question my division. I'll have to ask my senpai. And full color Freeza does start with 246, fuck.
Last edited by Kuririn Fan on Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:08 pm

Kuririn Fan wrote:
sintzu wrote:
Kuririn Fan wrote:Ending Saiyan arc with chapter 241 isn't that bad - Vegeta leaves = arc ends. #242 introduces Namek idea and next arc begins!
242-245 feel like an epilogue to the Saiyan arc instead of the next arc's beginning.
Not really, but whatever.
I think a VERY good argument can be made that Roshi and Company picking up their friends including the bodies of their fallen comrades is an epilogue to the Vegeta arc.
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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by Kuririn Fan » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:09 pm

ABED wrote: I think a VERY good argument can be made that Roshi and Company picking up their friends including the bodies of their fallen comrades is an epilogue to the Vegeta arc.
Yeah, i know, i edited my post. It's the similar situation with chapters 162-165, i guess?
Last edited by Kuririn Fan on Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:13 pm

I'll have to ask my senpai
Why do you need to ask your senpai? What insight does he/she have on this?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by Kuririn Fan » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:15 pm

ABED wrote:
I'll have to ask my senpai
Why do you need to ask him? What insight does he have on this?
He's a very smart guy, i'm only his apprentice, i have a lot yet to learn. It's the similar situation with chapters 162-165, i guess?

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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:17 pm

Kuririn Fan wrote:
ABED wrote:
I'll have to ask my senpai
Why do you need to ask him? What insight does he have on this?
He's a very smart guy, i'm only his apprentice, i a lot yet to learn. It's the similar situation with chapters 162-165, i guess?
I'm sure he is, but why would you think he has insight into this very specific situation.

You'll have to forgive me for not knowing what happens in every chapter, but what happens in 162-165?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by Kuririn Fan » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:20 pm

ABED wrote: You'll have to forgive me for not knowing what happens in every chapter, but what happens in 162-165?
There is always manga guide on the main site! Basically, Daimao is defeated in #161, but in the next 4 chapters, Goku goes to Heavenly Realm, meets Kami, resurrects his friends and is told that Piccolo is alive and will come to 23rd TB. So epilogue + to be continued, same as here.

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Re: Dragon Ball's story arcs

Post by sintzu » Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:22 pm

ABED wrote:You'll have to forgive me for not knowing what happens in every chapter, but what happens in 162-165?
And you call yourself a fan ? you need to go back to DB school right way cause this is unacceptable.
Kuririn Fan wrote:Daimao is defeated in #161, but in the next 4 chapters, Goku goes to Heavenly Realm, meets Kami, resurrects his friends and is told that Piccolo is alive and will come to 23rd TB. So epilogue + to be continued, same as here.
It wouldn't make sense to have them be part of the 23rd Tenkaichi arc so they fit as the Daimao epilogue.
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