Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

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Draconic
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Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by Draconic » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:11 am

Due to the recent criticisms raised over the new transformations in Dragon Ball, more specifically the "fan-fiction" ones, I decided to try and take as much of an objective look as possible at them to try and better understand or combat possible criticisms. However, I do not mean this to be a defense of the artistic choices made regarding said transformations, nor am I trying to persuade anybody that dislikes the forms to change their minds. What I do seek is to make the artistic choices clear, beyond just "pallete swapping". Somethings might appear obvious, but I will try not to point too much at what everybody can see at a first glance. The main example I will try and base my dissection regarding the Saiyan transformations will be Goku, as he is the only one who has achieved all forms.

SUPER SAIYAN 1/2/3
Before we take a look at the forms appearing in the new material, I think it would be best to first look at the old ones and try to see what makes them iconic/great/recognizable.
Let's start with the beginning: the original Super Saiyan. The form was first achieved by Goku after Freeza killed Krillin on Namek. It's look is as iconic as it can get, being almost synonmus with Dragon Ball as a whole, even though it only appeared at about the half-way point of the story. It's requirements have been specified to be: a pure heart, a certain unspecified level of power and a huge amount of rage.
I won't hesitate to call the design brilliant, despite it's simplicity. It conveys everything the author meant. Goku has become something else which should be the first point of a TRANSFORMATION. The hair stands up, embelished in in a golden aura, turning it blonde. The pupils change their normal color to green and the body becomes all jacked up and all muscles tense.

However, the main differences (raised hair, tense muscles, different aura) are not the first time Toriyama chose to use those specific characteristics to imply an increase in power. During the Namek Arc, Goku had trained his body enough so that he could increase the duration of his, then, only power-up/multiplying technique: the Kaioken. While in the Saiyan Arc, during his battle with Vegeta, Goku had only gotten around to a x4 Kaioken, by the time Freeza appeared as the main threat, he had already mastered a x20 multiplier of his power. This was specifically chosen to be represented by the author when Goku first encounters Captain Ginyu, for whom he displays the upper limits of Kaioken that he broke. And, while at the lower levels the Kaioken only appeared as a red aura surrounding the body, with the muscles tensing, at the upper levels we are presented with the same Super Saiyan characteristics: the upwards hair, muscles so tense they look as if they are about to burst and a huge aura covering the body.
Toriyama had decided that the best way to showcase an increase in power, two times already, to be a different colored, upwards-hair, jacked up design. Only that, for differentiating the two, he decided to leave the Super Saiyan hair uninked in the manga, therefore making his time at drawing it easier, but also managing to perfectly illustrate his point (while changing history in the process too!).
All in all, the Super Saiyan transformation is a great design, borrowing from what previously came before, while twisting it just enough to make it it's own special thing.

Let's now move on to a design which has ascended past the design of a regular Super Saiyan, or the Super Saiyan 2 design. This form was originally achieved by Kid Gohan during his battle with Cell, after the villain killed Android 16. At the time it was supposed to showcase Gohan's incredible fighting potential coming out. And it showed:
Gohan's Super Saiyan design was much closer to how his base form looked, unlike his father's, due in part probably because Toriyama meant to signify that this level (Full Power Super Saiyan, or Super Saiyan Grade 4, as it is known) was a level where the rage that was displayed by Goku on Namek was now under control and that the user of said form no longer felt "uncomfortable" using it. This gave some leway to Toriyama and by the time Gohan finally unleashed his full power, he could revert back to the good old muscle-growing, hair rising habits of displaying power, now with some kick-ass lightning added to the mix.

Though the form was unlocked in a fit of rage by Gohan, it was never stated that anger is needed any longer to do it, (rage boost being Gohan's way of unlocking his inner strenght since he was introduced implies only a high enough level of power is requiered). This meant pretty much that any Super Saiyan could become a Super Saiyan 2 with enough training, so, of course, Goku and Vegeta achieved it too. Sadly, it's first appearence is the only time it is really distinguishable from the regular Super Saiyan. That's partially because characters like Vegeta (and Gohan with his new haircut) always had the hair standing up, meaning the only truly substantial thing that makes it look like a different transformation from Super Saiyan is the lightning, as the spikier hair is barely noticeable. That was also problematic when the anime decided not to always have the lightning in the aura, therefore giving birth to a lot of debates whether a character is in one form or another. The only one managing to escape that was Goku, as Toriyama was smart enough to differentiate the number of bangs Goku keeps in each form (4 in SSJ, 1 in SSJ2) though even with him there has been confusion.

However, it wasn't long until even this level of power was surpassed and Toriyama had to come up with the Super Saiyan 3. The form kept the lightning of the previous transformation and the recognizable golden hair-green eyes combo, however, there is no confusing this one with any other. The transformation was first achieved by Goku in the Other World, specifications for it not being given (though Gotenks achieves it all the same after a couple of hours in the Room of Spirit and Time, so we can assume a high enough power level is the only requirement). It's main characteristic is, of course, the absurdly long spiky hair. However, one small touch up always gets to me. The lack of eyebrows.
What purpose could lack of eyebrows have? Well, with a master stroke, Toriyama returned the Saiyan to his original transformation introduced ever since the very first story arc. The Great Ape.
In my opinion the coincidence is too great to be just that, so I assume it was deliberate. However, intentional or not, such a small detail managed to help illustrate exactly what the author was thinking when he drew such a thing: the character was breaking so many limits of power, that he was reverting to a mindless fighting machine. Maybe signifying how mindless the whole thing had became? I mean, the Buu Arc is the arc where Toriyama is reverting back to his origins as a gag artist and the series started as a parody, so he definetley has the capabilites to be just subtle enough to go unnoticed. But maybe I am giving the man too much credit.
Even so, the Super Saiyan 3 design was a simplistic design that managed to convey the even further increase in power, with only a few touch ups, however, without falling into the same trap Super Saiyan 2 fell, where it was nearly indistinguishable from the previous form.
I know I skipped the grade forms, but those were just bulkier Super Sayians anyway and made little impact, not the mention that whatever could be said about them is already commented upon in-universe during the Trunks vs Perfect Cell fight. Let's move on.

SUPER SAIYAN BLUE
Let's get this one out of the way first. Super Saiyan Blue, or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the latest form Goku and Vegeta have managed to unlock. It first appeared in the Ressurection of F movie and has divided fans ever since. But not without merit, as it is, in essence, just a pallete swap.

As a design, there's not much that can be said. If you like Super Saiyan and you like the color blue, this might just be right up your alley. I will admit I am not the biggest fan of the form, but I am willing to embrace it, though I do think the previous transformation (Super Saiyan God, which we will talk about later) was a much better looking transformation all around.

The form is now powered by God ki, unlike regular peasant ki. This, as mentioned in the new series Dragon Ball Super, makes it a much calmer and easier to use/maintain than the regular Super Saiyan form. In that sense, I do think that the color choice to represent that is the best one possible. The blue is not dark, implying some other more intense state, but not the lightest nuance either, implying it's still battle ready. In that way, the form manages to convey trough just it's main change, the main reason why it's supposed to be a better transformation in-universe. So, in that sense, the form gains some extra-points.

Other than that, there is not much that can be said about the form. However I would like to explain why I said at the beginning why I am willing to embrace it and how it stands in relationship to this:
Most of the time, during the drought of material that came after Dragon Ball GT ended, you would inevitably, as a fan of the series, stumble upon something like this. So-called Super Saiyan 5, 6 or 7, Devil Super Saiyan, Heartless Super Saiyan etc. And in those cases, the transformation would be nothing but a quick Paint job, or if you were lucky, a Photoshop work. After you stumbled upon it, you would see that it is just a recolored Super Saiyan 3, or a recolored Super Saiyan 4.
This caused many fans of the series to hate such transformations and imediately dismiss them as nothing but uncreative pieces of trash. However, after many years of dismissing pallete swaps as uncreative, when the main series gets reinvigorated and it turns out to do the exact same thing, a lot of fans jumped right on the paint-job train. That looks hypocritical to some, or even worse, downright stupid, which never leads to anything good.
But why would fans jump on the Super Saiyan Blue train, yet flip off the Super Saiyan 12 train? I can't say that I speak for everybody, but why I am in the aforementioned train for me can be summarized in one word: context.

In the large majority of cases, when you would stumble upon a ridiculously numbered Super Saiyan form, no matter the author, or the artist, the context of those recolors would always be: user must obtain a certain level of power or user must be very very angry or a combination of both, sometimes worded differently. This point might also help you understand why I specified how every Super Saiyan form designed by Toriyama was achieved. The logic of high levels of power or anger is an internal logic of the show, however, the progression in the fan-designs of the characters does not follow that logic. Toriyama always made minimal changes at best, ever since the Kaioken (in color, hair or body mass) and how one form evolved made sense with the previous ones.
By contrast, when Dragon Ball GT came along with it's own Super Saiyan design, it decided to move on from the logic Toriyama presented and create it's own. As such, Super Saiyan 4 had a lot of requirements that were neither breaking a limit of strength (in the sense that by breaking the limit will give you the form, cause you do need to have Super Saiyan) nor an anger issue.

The internal logic of the transformation doesn't fully work...
I mean, I understand how going Super Saiyan while Oozaru results in a Golden Oozaru. How controling that form results in red fur and magic pants, I do not know. However, the design itself is way to cool to complain about and is fresh. It doesn't break Toriyama's logic, while still continuing with the theme of going more and more primitive set by Super Saiyan 3. In my opinion, it was the best way a Super Saiyan 4 (especially a non-Toriyama one) could go.
But let's not lose track of ourselves. The main point of this detour was to illustrate that introducing new colors or callback to old elements is not in itself bad or to be condemned, as long as it doesn't contradict what came before it.

In that sense, Super Saiyan Blue does not break the logic. As already mentioned, the form is powered by God ki (what matters is it's a new type of ki). In it's first appearence is literally explained as a Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God. So, actually, this new transformation just happens to be a freshened up old transformation. It still is the Super Saiyan we knew with the standing up hair and blue-green eyes, however, while the regular ki caused the hair to be embelished in a golden aura, the God ki embelishes it in a blue aura. The form does not break the internal logic of the series, instead creating a new logic for itself, the same way Super Saiyan 4 did.

By this, I conclude that the Super Saiyan Blue form is a notch above the "fanfic" transformations. This doesn't make it an amazing design by any means or a very creative one either, so you won't hear me calling it the best the show has to offer, but it's not the garbage some make it out to be. It's like that college/school student you hate: lazy, but smart.

SUPER SAIYAN GOD

Finally, let's move on from that to what happens to be my favorite transformation in the series. Super Saiyan God. As such, I think this section will sound a little more apologetic than what came before or what comes after, but I will try to keep it to a minimum.

The form was first achieved by Goku and only Goku in the Battle of Gods movie. It was achieved by a ritual, in which five pure Saiyans pour their "heart" into a sixth one. Again, the form does not break the logic of what came before it, but instead creates a new reason/method to surpass what at Super Saiyan 3 seemed to be the end.
One of the huge criticisms I have heard about this form is the fact that it looks just like Kaioken. Specifically early Kaioken, of the Saiyan Arc, where Goku was only covered in the red aura, not the upper levels of Kaioken that I broke down previously when dealing with the Super Saiyan form. Frankly, I just never thought about it until people started pointing it out, time when I still couldn't really see it. I guess breaking them down, I kinda see the semblence with the hair looking magenta (though in God's case the hair IS magenta, while in Kaioken it only has a few highlights), but outside of that nothing really stands out to me. The hair being the same as the base form's hair? Ok, there's two.

Maybe what doesn't make me see it is the fact the two are literally opposites in every way, shape and form (heh). One has the user getting all skinny, cool and relaxed looking, while the other has veins almost popping from the intensity that's being put on the body. Not to mention the auras. Kaioken has a red crazy chaotic aura that makes Goku's whole body look red and boiling, while God's one is a lot more... tidy moving, showing that Goku is really in control of it and he is in no danger.
Another complaint I've heard is that it barely changes how Goku looks, which again, seems to be a bit of a stretch. Since I already broke down the regular Super Saiyan form earlier and we know the main things to look out for, let's compare the two and see how much one differs from the other, from a "amount of changes" point of view.

The original Super Saiyan changes first and foremost the color of the hair. Well, Super Saiyan God does that too. However, Super Saiyan also changes the shape of the hair, which God does not. Instead, God choses to change the shape of the eyes, making the user look a lot more youthful. Not as obvious of a change as the raised up hair, but still enough to make the features of the user look distinct.
Next, Super Saiyan changes the color of the eyes, which God does too, along with it's type. However, the most noticeable change that God has and it is the main difference between it and Super Saiyan, is the fact that, while one increases the body mass, the other decreases it. It is an old Toriyama trope to make weak looking characters strong (Freeza, Kid Buu), but this time it is not determined by the height, like previously, but by weight. Something that is prevalent in Toriyama's modern designs: everybody is skinnier.
Not much to say otherwise. The transformation is cool, the skinny build is refreshing, the magenta color does look godly and it subverts every expectation.

GOLDEN FREEZA
Alright. One more to go. This above me, is Golden Freeza. He is a pallete swap of Freeza. The form was first introduced in the movie Ressurection of F, after Freeza, who is revealed to be a prodigy, trains for 4 months and achieves a greater power than Goku with God ki. He looks exactly like Final Form Freeza, only that instead of the cool white color of his skin, this time he is yellow. How lazy!

Wait... That's not Golden Freeza? Are you sure? It looks like it. I mean, it's literally Freeza but Golden, how can it not be?

Okay. You get the point. That is not actually Golden Freeza, at least not how he appears in the actual Ressurection of F movie, or Dragon Ball Super. It's just a quick edit I made in Paint for the whole purpose of this joke, that you probably cringed at.

This is Golden Freeza:
As you can see, there is more to this design than meets the eye at first glance and while yes, the main obvious difference is the color, the form does not fit the meaning of pallete swap or recolor. Which is another reason why I started the dissection with Super Saiyan Blue. To show what an actual pallete swap is. And it is also the reason why I decided to first have a little break down of the first three Super Saiyan forms: to show that minimalistic changes in color or details have always been par for the course for Toriyama and are a huge part of the series and of the iconic transformations that everybody, even someone who hasn't watched the series can recognize.

I mean, let's take a look at Freeza's OTHER transformations:
His first transformation is just him getting taller and changing the horns a little. Not much change there, but it is getting the point across: he is getting stronger. His second transformation is much more noticable, but in reality is just the shoulder pads getting detached from the body and a different head. Not much change there either, but the point is still getting across.

Then, the fourth form comes and that is a pretty big change. It is also Toriyama's best design ever made. Simply astonishing and probably the main reason why he loved doing the subverting expectations stuff so much. Because overly complicated designs are never going to nail a point on it's head the way a simplistic design does.
But let's not get side-tracked. Let's examine Golden Freeza. First of all, to get it out of the way, why is he Golden, even though all his other transformations where always holding white as the main component. Doesn't that break the logic of the transformation, as stated earlier? No, because it has an in-universe reason: Freeza designed the form himself, because he apparently can do that. It doesn't contradict anything and it was said that his other forms were just used by him to supress him power and the fourth one was his original form, so it's easy to assume he designed the other three as well (Frost from Universe 6 kinda screws with that, but they are counterparts anyway). Why Golden? Because Super Saiyan of course, as an irony. He was killed by a Golden Warrior, so he must become a Golden Warrior to win (too bad he was kinda late to the party, though. Blue is the fashion nowadays).

What doesn't make it a pallete swap? Well, from top to bottom: he gained brows, which he didn't have before, reason probably being so there could be an interupting line to color is face, which was the same color as his body previously. Also, the highlights on his shoulders are gone, instead, until his forearms, his arms are a different shade of gold. And, speaking of the forearms, the purple highlights are no longer straight, but roundish. He also seems to have gained some form of pants, also colored in the same shade of gold as the arms. The hand and feet are also now purple, whereas they were the same color as the rest of the body in his final form.

Concluding, I think the form is a work of simplistic choice that Toriyama has always done, so to complain about it for this reason is kinda unjusted, since there have been dozens before it (and a worse one in the same movie), while conveying the theme of the movie (F's revenge on saiyans) very well.
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My breakdown of the new and old transformations. Hope to update it soon with many others!

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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by Nejishiki » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:53 am

That's some interesting work on the breakdown there. I think you conveyed your points well over Toriyama's method of progression being consistent in both the past and the present. Maybe being able to consume Dragon Ball all at once due to it being a finished product makes it difficult to realize that habit of Toriyama has remained the same throughout nearly a decade of serialized work and beyond?

His characterization has always been reflected in his artwork as you've detailed, including how we're supposed to emotionally take transformations as he deliberately directs it so. Also, to add on to Goku's body bursting out during his use with Kaioken, a detail to remember is that he's trying to control an explosion of ki, which paints a picture as to how dangerous and intense the technique is to the audience.

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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by Draconic » Fri Jun 10, 2016 12:05 pm

Nejishiki wrote:That's some interesting work on the breakdown there. I think you conveyed your points well over Toriyama's method of progression being consistent in both the past and the present. Maybe being able to consume Dragon Ball all at once due to it being a finished product makes it difficult to realize that habit of Toriyama has remained the same throughout nearly a decade of serialized work and beyond?
Very interesting observation you bring up there. Thanks for the reply!
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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by Desassina » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:13 pm

I would like you to comment Gotenks' transformation in terms of design. There are some fan creations where Trunks' hair shapes Goten's to fall naturally with spiky lose ends (as if it were Gohan's during the Android saga). Some color changes would be had, obviously, but what we got was some "super-ized" hair, in the sense that fusion gave them a boost on top of their added power. It turned out upswept and became more defined as well, using SSJ like hair with Trunks' color on the sides of Gotenks' head. It fits nicely with your description that power ups could spike up their hair, and if we add color to the mix, then SSJ4 Gogeta's could have been "super-ized" by the fusion as well. In other words: Gotenks' design was carefully chosen, streamlined and effective.

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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by Anime Kitten » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:49 pm

That's a really nice breakdown. Can I call the recolor Gold Frieza?
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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by Draconic » Fri Jun 10, 2016 5:02 pm

Desassina wrote:I would like you to comment Gotenks' transformation in terms of design. There are some fan creations where Trunks' hair shapes Goten's to fall naturally with spiky lose ends (as if it were Gohan's during the Android saga). Some color changes would be had, obviously, but what we got was some "super-ized" hair, in the sense that fusion gave them a boost on top of their added power. It turned out upswept and became more defined as well, using SSJ like hair with Trunks' color on the sides of Gotenks' head. It fits nicely with your description that power ups could spike up their hair, and if we add color to the mix, then SSJ4 Gogeta's could have been "super-ized" by the fusion as well. In other words: Gotenks' design was carefully chosen, streamlined and effective.
If the thread is recieved well I have no problem breaking down some more transformations/designs, good or bad. I'm glad you enjoyed the read.

@Anime Kitten, sure, why not? :lol:
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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by TheMikado » Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:42 pm

Nice break down, however I feel you make have been a fair bit too generous with the new transformation designs. SSJ4 in terms of the mixing of forms makes sense although the transition from Golden Oozauru to the humanoid forms takes a suspension of belief, but as you said it's a cool and refreshing design.

SSB lacks originality or consistency. I think your break down of the SSB and SSG forms should have been in reverse order as SSB is a derivative of having God Ki. From a design standpoint this makes little sense based on what we have seen of SSG. The SSG form (base) represents a design change which doesn't follow through in its ascended states. By contrast Toriyamas designs of Frieza and SSJ follow and "expansion" type design as they ascend. This can even be seen in the SSJ grades and the aura and lighting in SSJ2 and the hair in SSJ3. Moving from SSG to SSB in the basis of God Ki makes little sense and does not do the mixing of design elements like the Golden Oozurau or even the golden aura of SSJ4.

In that sense SSB lack the typical design and ascending elements that we have seen previously. But Golden Frieza does as well. We can see each form progressively expands the white body armor until it fully encases his body. Golden Frieza reverses that which seems like an odd design choice for an acsended form. There is more exposure on this hands and face and shows that intent of the design was not consistently drawn with the other forms. Basically both forms do not properly build on their previous prerequisite forms properly in typical Toriyama fashion and thus look overall inconsistent which the way his character forms naturally progressed.

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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by Draconic » Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:56 pm

TheMikado wrote:Nice break down, however I feel you make have been a fair bit too generous with the new transformation designs. SSJ4 in terms of the mixing of forms makes sense although the transition from Golden Oozauru to the humanoid forms takes a suspension of belief, but as you said it's a cool and refreshing design.

SSB lacks originality or consistency. I think your break down of the SSB and SSG forms should have been in reverse order as SSB is a derivative of having God Ki. From a design standpoint this makes little sense based on what we have seen of SSG. The SSG form (base) represents a design change which doesn't follow through in its ascended states. By contrast Toriyamas designs of Frieza and SSJ follow and "expansion" type design as they ascend. This can even be seen in the SSJ grades and the aura and lighting in SSJ2 and the hair in SSJ3. Moving from SSG to SSB in the basis of God Ki makes little sense and does not do the mixing of design elements like the Golden Oozurau or even the golden aura of SSJ4.

In that sense SSB lack the typical design and ascending elements that we have seen previously. But Golden Frieza does as well. We can see each form progressively expands the white body armor until it fully encases his body. Golden Frieza reverses that which seems like an odd design choice for an acsended form. There is more exposure on this hands and face and shows that intent of the design was not consistently drawn with the other forms. Basically both forms do not properly build on their previous prerequisite forms properly in typical Toriyama fashion and thus look overall inconsistent which the way his character forms naturally progressed.
I 100% agree with you on the SSB design, though I don't think I was too generous. I mean, my conclusions regarding it are still on the negative side. I was just saying it's not as bad as some make it out to be. Of course, it all comes to preference too, so it's impossible to have a completley unbiased opinion.

However, I disagree about Freeza. You say that the transformations kept increasing the white plating, until it covered his whole body and that is a very good observation. However Golden Freeza does not revert that. It just adds a whole new layer of plating over the old one, which is not unheard of in the series, regarding Freeza's race. Cooler too, while in his final form had another layer of plating over his purple "skin". In that sense it is consistent with how the previous one's progressed. To put it simply, the 1st to 3rd forms are on -, the 4th and 100% ones are the 0 while Golden is a +.
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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by TheMikado » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:27 pm

^ well no the feet, face, and gloves are exposing his purple skin. Instead of treating that was appeared to be full body armor (think Kevlar) it's like they forgot that he was fully armored and made the traditionally white part act more as skin with an additional layer/body armor vest on top. I guess you could literally interpret it as "the gloves coming off" but that's a bit of a stretch. Basically I wouldn't expect to see any of his purple skin in higher level forms especially if he physically has more body armor added in other places.

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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by Draconic » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:52 pm

But the plating is not removable. It's part of his body. Everything that changes happens to his anatomy. The purple parts can be as solid as the golden ones. Everything is his "skin". It's not like during the transformation he puts on actual armor. The fact that his face is purple but the rest of the head is gold doesn't mean it's an actual gap between them, otherwise his forearms and shins even in his 4th form reveal his "skin". If you want to view it that way, the Golden form is the better battle suited form for battle, just because there are less unprotected parts and I don't want to give the design that much credit.
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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by TheMikado » Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:37 pm

^ maybe that's where we disagree, in Frieza and his other races equivalents they actually wear clothes and armor. You can see Frieza actually has shorts/underwear in his previous forms until the armor covers them. It appears the striped parts are actually skin too. When you look his face the striped skin and facial skin appear to be on the same plane/layer. I have a fan drawing to show what I mean.
Even Frost's design is consistent based on that expected armor rule with the pants appearing to be actual pants in each form. The exception being the shoulder pads but I guess that's ok if he just isn't able to manifest full body armor like Frieza. In fact Frieza is the only one of his race we've ever seen to ever do that.

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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by Cetra » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:43 pm

TheMikado wrote:^ maybe that's where we disagree, in Frieza and his other races equivalents they actually wear clothes and armor. You can see Frieza actually has shorts/underwear in his previous forms until the armor covers them. It appears the striped parts are actually skin too. When you look his face the striped skin and facial skin appear to be on the same plane/layer. I have a fan drawing to show what I mean.
Even Frost's design is consistent based on that expected armor rule with the pants appearing to be actual pants in each form. The exception being the shoulder pads but I guess that's ok if he just isn't able to manifest full body armor like Frieza. In fact Frieza is the only one of his race we've ever seen to ever do that.

I am not sure if you understand what he means. He says everything white, pink, golden, purple and blue of Freeza and Cooler is part of the body. Which it is. Freeza and Cooler have normal skin and then something additional like a turtle shell that covers their legs, wrists, torso and sometimes also their head. Same goes for Cell. And they all, also Frost show with their transformations that the shell is a part of their body.

What appears like "pants" is also part of their body. The exception here is the underwear Freeza has in his reduced forms.
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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by TheMikado » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:02 pm

No I got that but what I'm saying is that the different textures of their body are like layers so the purple skin is like their inner skin while the "white" is their outer skin or shell. As they transform into stronger and stronger battle ready levels the amount of natural body armor they have also trends to cover more of their bodies not less. That's why it doesn't make sense based on what we've seen of the original transformation process to have a higher form which exposes the purple "inner skin" layer when each form appears to have developed and expanded to provide more protection. It's not a huge deal but it does indicate that the new forms do not follow the original thinking in terms of the design and development of the old forms almost like a different persons designed them. Basically they don't follow the same design rules and logic.

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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by Draconic » Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:21 am

TheMikado wrote:No I got that but what I'm saying is that the different textures of their body are like layers so the purple skin is like their inner skin while the "white" is their outer skin or shell. As they transform into stronger and stronger battle ready levels the amount of natural body armor they have also trends to cover more of their bodies not less. That's why it doesn't make sense based on what we've seen of the original transformation process to have a higher form which exposes the purple "inner skin" layer when each form appears to have developed and expanded to provide more protection. It's not a huge deal but it does indicate that the new forms do not follow the original thinking in terms of the design and development of the old forms almost like a different persons designed them. Basically they don't follow the same design rules and logic.
But the purple parts are not "inner skin". Everything purple and light gold is the same layer of skin of the fourth form, while the dark gold ones are new layers. So Freeza never regresses in the amount of plating, quite the contrary.
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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:00 am

^ then the above would represent a departure from the original Frieza design and inconsistent.
It will be easier is I illustrate the comparison.
We can see Golden Frieza has several layers similar to the original Frieza design. In the Original Frieza design we see several distinct layers of skin. The appear inner most being the exposures of his hands, feet, and face. From there a secondary later appearing to be the stripped or middle skin takes over, followed by the third white armored skin. Golden Frieza now has three layers as well but they are inconsistent even within the design as to which plane they fall on. In the face the purple layer is similar to Frieza's first form where the purple layer falls under the white armored layer and it is shown consistently with the over hang of the eyebrows and sheen/shadow indications. The problem with Golden Frieza's design is that when we start getting to the arms and shoulders that new layer on the arms appears to fall over the traditional white armor which would be fine until you get to the forearms and now falls under the white armor. The same happens with the new "pants". And both terminate in the same exposure that we saw in all of Frieza's previous forms before the final form and that also appear in the face. Like I said it's not a big deal but if we are doing an in depth study of the design it should be noted that the Golden Frieza design is neither consistent with the original design nor it's own design rules. Basically, the way it is designed implies it doesn't follow the original creators design cues and due to the inconsistent design layers may have been an amateur design and not original from Toriyama. Here's the first form for reference of the different elements and layers which do keep their consistency.

I should probably also state that the design elements are armor scheme of Frieza follow natural queues from animals like turtles or armadillos. The primary being the shell the secondary being the armored plating on the arms legs with are much thick and armored than the inner skin layer with is thinner.

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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by Draconic » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:13 am

The first form has two layers: the white plating and the purple and pink skin.
The final form has two layers: the forearm/shin plating and the rest of the skin.
The Golden form has two layers: the dark-gold plating and the light-gold and purple skin.

Just because they are colored differently it doesn't mean they are another layer. Why are they colored differently? Color-balance. Without it First Form Frieza would look like shit, Final Form Freeza even more and Golden Freeza the most. The different color of the face, legs and face are in direct correlation to his first/second/third form, while the ammount of plating or layers never actually regresses. All those inconstistencies you bring up, quite truly, don't hold up.

Also, whatever minor deviations from the previous forms arrive, like the arm and leg plating, are done for, you know... Newness. Otherwise you would end up with just a recolor and that's even worse.

I understand you dislike the form, but in terms of the new designs it's the one which takes the old familiar elements and twists them to create something new the best.
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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by Akira » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:13 pm

Draconic, I can tell you put some time and effort into the initial post. It was a good read, and a very interesting breakdown. You made many good points too, nice job.
"Of" =/= "Have"

Contractions:
-Should have = Should've
-Could have = Could've
-Would have = Would've

The heck does "should of" even mean anyway? Think about what those two words mean individually, and then try to read them back to back in a sentence and make sense of it. Are you forming a prepositional phrase, is "should" a part of a larger grouping, or are you just typing random words based on how you think you hear them used verbally? Perhaps take a moment to contemplate this, and see if it becomes as mind jarring for you to look at as it does for me..

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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by Draconic » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:49 pm

Akira wrote:Draconic, I can tell you put some time and effort into the initial post. It was a good read, and a very interesting breakdown. You made many good points too, nice job.
Thank you very much! :)
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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by TheMikado » Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:35 pm

Draconic wrote:The first form has two layers: the white plating and the purple and pink skin.
The final form has two layers: the forearm/shin plating and the rest of the skin.
The Golden form has two layers: the dark-gold plating and the light-gold and purple skin.

Just because they are colored differently it doesn't mean they are another layer. Why are they colored differently? Color-balance. Without it First Form Frieza would look like shit, Final Form Freeza even more and Golden Freeza the most. The different color of the face, legs and face are in direct correlation to his first/second/third form, while the ammount of plating or layers never actually regresses. All those inconstistencies you bring up, quite truly, don't hold up.

Also, whatever minor deviations from the previous forms arrive, like the arm and leg plating, are done for, you know... Newness. Otherwise you would end up with just a recolor and that's even worse.

I understand you dislike the form, but in terms of the new designs it's the one which takes the old familiar elements and twists them to create something new the best.
This is where our opinions differ though. I see three layers, you see two. I think I do not understand why you would make the assumption that two different textures are actually the same layer of skin. Especially when other members of his race including King Cold do not seem to have that same stripped skin layer and his natural skin layer appears to be the purple texture. That layer does appear on King Cold's armor and in his face. The fact that it appears on on this armor implies that it is supposed to be at least one layer above his normal skin. We know that Frieza is unique even among his race and perhaps his ability to manifest more body armor is part of his unique traits.
My personal opinions of the Golden Frieza have no bearing on whether the design is actual consistent. You're argument is that two different colored and textured parts of the body exist on the same plane and layer. My argument is there is more than enough evidence not only in Frieza's design but others of his race such as King Cold and Cooler or Chill if you want to go that far to show that the purple skin and the pink stripped skin are two different layers with two different functions. Think of the stripped skin as like chain link armor more flexible than the other parts but offering more protection than the bare purple skin.
This is a trait that's consistent across all the older designed Frieza race characters.

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Re: Breaking down the new (and old) transformations

Post by Draconic » Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:54 pm

Actually Cold supports my opinion of them being the same layer of skin, since he doesn't have any pink parts and his skin continues trough the plating. Cooler does it too, as in both forms there is nothing suggesting he has different skin between over the elbow and under the wrist. Also, Frost has none of those either. Freeza is the not the only one with two-colored skin, so to say that the internal logic of his whole race is thrown out the window because he is "special" (obviously not, as Frost exists and is stronger than him) is just plain ignoring everybody else.
Chilled, for example, shows exactly how it's the same layer:
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