Things that grind your gears

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by dbgtFO » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:17 am

Sailor Haumea wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Sailor Haumea wrote: What are you talking about?
Theseviewtopic.php?f=6&t=22211&start=6860#p1453169
Is he the creator?
Check the next page. Someone on 4chan made them.
But that could easily be one of his accounts and you should know of that possibilty.
With this I can confidently say conspiracy confirmed, Rocketman must be the creator :lol:

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:43 am

Death of the Author. It's a legitimate thing in literature and writing.
It's also one writer's view.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Michsi » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:53 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
King13s wrote: The creator has spoken, and that is God telling you how the world works.
Death of the Author. It's a legitimate thing in literature and writing.
This here, this grinds my gears something fierce. One guy argues that authorial intent and biographical context should be taken out of the equation when looking at a work, and now everybody thinks they know better than the person that wrote the thing.

It's a displeased fan's favorite tool whenever the creator does or confirms something they don't like.

I also wanted to add that this tendency to blame TFS for everything has gotten ridiculous. Some seriously think DBZA is responsible for Goku's more crass behavior in DBS??? TFS are not even partly to blame, especially since most of their ideas are simply rehashed jokes and notions that have been floating around the fandom long before they came. They got famous, that's all they did. If people say DBZ Abridged is better than the original, that simply means they enjoy DBZ Abridged more than the original, and that's their prerogative. I don't like that they word it as a statement, but it's still their right to enjoy it more.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:29 am

I think authorial intent is important, but just one of many factors. The thing that annoys me a lot is how there seems to be a recent trend of fans taking ownership of art. Art belongs to the artist.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Michsi » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:39 am

ABED wrote:I think authorial intent is important, but just one of many factors. The thing that annoys me a lot is how there seems to be a recent trend of fans taking ownership of art. Art belongs to the artist.
I agree with that, and I think there have been cases where removing the author's initial intention or message have benefitted the story since that intention and message can often be outdated or something like that.

But now people want to basically decide in place of the creator what is true and what isn't.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:43 pm

My personal take is authoritorial intent is a valid view on the respective piece but not necesarily the be all and end all possible view on it, the consumer's view are equally valid. However, I don't believe this applies to stuff like canon and continuity, this is where creator's voice reings.
Lore is NOT story, and it never was, and you should stop spreading this nonsense.
Content is NOT substance.
Bunch of characters doing stuff do NOT make an esemble cast.
Secondary characters are secondary, they do NOT deserve or are entitled to having more screen time.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by GamerSkull » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:22 pm

I think it's more that fans get annoyed when an author tries to imply something that contradicts what happens in the actual material or evidence pointing against it. I personally don't like when authors do this because it's like they are going back on a decision made in the actual run by hand-waving it off in an interview.

Yes, an author's word is absolute within the actual material but an author adding other things or dismissing other things in interviews or other places can get annoying to me. However, Toriyama has shown that he can be rather forgetful of certain things at times so I usually just chalk it up as that.

I think Death of the Author is a very real thing too... and is equally applicable in certain occasions.

How I choose to interpret the story is separate from any secondhand interview done by the author. Whether he takes what he said in that interview and then implements it in another future story is a separate thing though.

If he wants to tell me Goku is a bad husband to Chi-Chi and doesn't even see her in the same extent as one usually would with a wife, then he should show it in the story and not say it in an interview. And if his story is done and he can't go back in change it... well, then I'll continue to interpret the story outside of that interview. (although in this case, I think he has shown that in the story to some extents).

This is something J.K. Rowling has done a couple of times recently... and I can't let it pass with her so I will not let it pass with Akira Toriyama either, no matter how much I respect him.

Anyway, I hope this post hasn't come off as condescending in any way. This is just my opinion on the matter.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by GamerSkull » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:31 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Sailor Haumea wrote:At this point, much of the fandom. Particularly dubbies and people who obsess over power levels.
Yeah. This. But I like to add extreme shippers and elitist sub fans in the mix too.
I don't mind people that enjoy the dubs more myself. (Hell, I like both even if I prefer the Japanese).

I think my problem just comes down to people defending mistranslation or straight-up changes like it's a good thing. It's fine to like it, I guess but...

It's just acting like DBZ was all the better for it and then accusing me of being elitist when all I want is the accurate dialogue that bothers me somewhat.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:43 pm

GamerSkull wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
I don't mind people that enjoy the dubs more myself. (Hell, I like both even if I prefer the Japanese).
I think my problem just comes down to people defending mistranslation or straight-up changes like it's a good thing. It's fine to like it, I guess but...
It's just acting like DBZ was all the better for it and then accusing me of being elitist when all I want is the accurate dialogue that bothers me somewhat.
That mentality doesn't make you elitist. AT least in my opinion. I'm referring to the people who think they're better or "true fans" for watching the series in Japanese, even with the modern dubs.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:59 pm

ABED wrote:I think authorial intent is important, but just one of many factors. The thing that annoys me a lot is how there seems to be a recent trend of fans taking ownership of art. Art belongs to the artist.
The recent controversy over that Liam Sharp Batman/Wonder Woman team-up series springs to my mind.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ulisa » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:00 pm

Yes, an author's word is absolute within the actual material but an author adding other things or dismissing other things in interviews or other places can get annoying to me. However, Toriyama has shown that he can be rather forgetful of certain things at times so I usually just chalk it up as that.

I think Death of the Author is a very real thing too... and is equally applicable in certain occasions.

How I choose to interpret the story is separate from any secondhand interview done by the author. Whether he takes what he said in that interview and then implements it in another future story is a separate thing though.

If he wants to tell me Goku is a bad husband to Chi-Chi and doesn't even see her in the same extent as one usually would with a wife, then he should show it in the story and not say it in an interview. And if his story is done and he can't go back in change it... well, then I'll continue to interpret the story outside of that interview. (although in this case, I think he has shown that in the story to some extents).

This is something J.K. Rowling has done a couple of times recently... and I can't let it pass with her so I will not let it pass with Akira Toriyama either, no matter how much I respect him.
I very much agree with this view. I do respect an author’s word on their work but sometimes, they seem to come up with ideas later that are not accurately reflected by their own writing. I think Toriyama’s comments on Goku not loving/viewing his family as just companions is a really good example of this. As he kept writing, he definitely improved/solidified his ideas on Saiyan culture but the way Goku acts in the beginning of the story doesn’t really reflect that, most likely because it wasn’t something he had decided on yet. So if a work doesn’t support or counteracts an author’s comments after the work has been written, I tend to take the work itself as proof not the author’s statements.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:03 pm

ulisa wrote:
Yes, an author's word is absolute within the actual material but an author adding other things or dismissing other things in interviews or other places can get annoying to me. However, Toriyama has shown that he can be rather forgetful of certain things at times so I usually just chalk it up as that.

I think Death of the Author is a very real thing too... and is equally applicable in certain occasions.

How I choose to interpret the story is separate from any secondhand interview done by the author. Whether he takes what he said in that interview and then implements it in another future story is a separate thing though.

If he wants to tell me Goku is a bad husband to Chi-Chi and doesn't even see her in the same extent as one usually would with a wife, then he should show it in the story and not say it in an interview. And if his story is done and he can't go back in change it... well, then I'll continue to interpret the story outside of that interview. (although in this case, I think he has shown that in the story to some extents).

This is something J.K. Rowling has done a couple of times recently... and I can't let it pass with her so I will not let it pass with Akira Toriyama either, no matter how much I respect him.
I very much agree with this view. I do respect an author’s word on their work but sometimes, they seem to come up with ideas later that are not accurately reflected by their own writing. I think Toriyama’s comments on Goku not loving/viewing his family as just companions is a really good example of this. As he kept writing, he definitely improved/solidified his ideas on Saiyan culture but the way Goku acts in the beginning of the story doesn’t really reflect that, most likely because it wasn’t something he had decided on yet. So if a work doesn’t support or counteracts an author’s comments after the work has been written, I tend to take the work itself as proof not the author’s statements.
Goku's way of acting vs Raditz is more of an anomaly, to me anyway, his idea of companions = family seems fairly plausible given his characterization afterward.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:12 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:I think authorial intent is important, but just one of many factors. The thing that annoys me a lot is how there seems to be a recent trend of fans taking ownership of art. Art belongs to the artist.
The recent controversy over that Liam Sharp Batman/Wonder Woman team-up series springs to my mind.
I'm not familiar with that controversy, sorry.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Michsi » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:23 pm

GamerSkull wrote: If he wants to tell me Goku is a bad husband to Chi-Chi and doesn't even see her in the same extent as one usually would with a wife, then he should show it in the story and not say it in an interview. And if his story is done and he can't go back in change it... well, then I'll continue to interpret the story outside of that interview. (although in this case, I think he has shown that in the story to some extents).
.

That's just it though, it doesn't really contradict it. Goku's commitment to family life has always been on the iffy side, and it's something that has been pretty evident in the manga. It just wasn't in your face at all times because the author just didn't care to focus on that.

This is what I mean. The author introduces a concept people are unhappy or uncomfortable with and look for ways to discredit it. Not saying this isn't worth the discussion: Toriyama is forgetful, he has changed his mind on a few things, what exactly does a bad husband/father mean here, and what role did the anime play in creating this image of Goku as an lovable,loving klutz instead of a good-natured but ultimately crass man-child.
ekrolo2 wrote:Goku's way of acting vs Raditz is more of an anomaly, to me anyway, his idea of companions = family seems fairly plausible given his characterization afterward.
It's always been odd how people bring up his care and urgency to save Gohan as evidence that he is a good father. I mean, that's a pretty low bar for good fatherhood if you ask me.

What I will agree with is that this is the one and only time he doesn't seem that into the fight itself, but neither has he been at such a power disadvantage before while something was at stake.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:32 pm

Attack of the Saiyan's never got a sequel. I'm one of the most disappointed fans. Playing the first one right now. :cry:
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:36 pm

Michsi wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:Goku's way of acting vs Raditz is more of an anomaly, to me anyway, his idea of companions = family seems fairly plausible given his characterization afterward.
It's always been odd how people bring up his care and urgency to save Gohan as evidence that he is a good father. I mean, that's a pretty low bar for good fatherhood if you ask me.

What I will agree with is that this is the one and only time he doesn't seem that into the fight itself, but neither has he been at such a power disadvantage before while something was at stake.
I sort of remember a quote from another user here that perfectly sums up Goku's parentage: he's got a good papa wolf instinct where he'll go to hell and back to save his family or help them in a bind but he's next to useless for anything besides that. He definitely doesn't help them study, he only has a job because Chi-Chi nags him about it and probably wouldn't even know what year or school his kids went/are going to.

Why do people have such an issue with protagonists just not being great at parenting? Just because you can punch bad guys really good in the face does not mean you'll be good at helping your kid with math homework or emotionally bonding with them properly. I can't think of anything "Well it makes this guy I like come off as kind of scummy so it can't be true!" which Goku is, he's a charming, obsessed man-child but still a man-child who's own base needs will always matter more to him then anything, that's the character: he's a bit of a shit head like that and better for it.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:41 pm

ABED wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:I think authorial intent is important, but just one of many factors. The thing that annoys me a lot is how there seems to be a recent trend of fans taking ownership of art. Art belongs to the artist.
The recent controversy over that Liam Sharp Batman/Wonder Woman team-up series springs to my mind.
I'm not familiar with that controversy, sorry.
Basically Sharp is drawing and writing a new book that teams up Batman and Wonder Woman, and you have stupid "fans" getting all up in his ass about it spouting shite like "WW doesn't need a man", "Why you splitting Diana and Steve up" cuz god forbid Diana have male friends.

The book isn't even out yet, which makes it all the more stupid.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by GamerSkull » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:43 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
GamerSkull wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
I don't mind people that enjoy the dubs more myself. (Hell, I like both even if I prefer the Japanese).
I think my problem just comes down to people defending mistranslation or straight-up changes like it's a good thing. It's fine to like it, I guess but...
It's just acting like DBZ was all the better for it and then accusing me of being elitist when all I want is the accurate dialogue that bothers me somewhat.
That mentality doesn't make you elitist. AT least in my opinion. I'm referring to the people who think they're better or "true fans" for watching the series in Japanese, even with the modern dubs.
Oh yeah. I can agree with that... the Kai dub is great and I'm so glad it exists as a more accurate dubbing of the series.
Last edited by GamerSkull on Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by GamerSkull » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:47 pm

Michsi wrote:
GamerSkull wrote: If he wants to tell me Goku is a bad husband to Chi-Chi and doesn't even see her in the same extent as one usually would with a wife, then he should show it in the story and not say it in an interview. And if his story is done and he can't go back in change it... well, then I'll continue to interpret the story outside of that interview. (although in this case, I think he has shown that in the story to some extents).
.

That's just it though, it doesn't really contradict it. Goku's commitment to family life has always been on the iffy side, and it's something that has been pretty evident in the manga. It just wasn't in your face at all times because the author just didn't care to focus on that.

This is what I mean. The author introduces a concept people are unhappy or uncomfortable with and look for ways to discredit it. Not saying this isn't worth the discussion: Toriyama is forgetful, he has changed his mind on a few things, what exactly does a bad husband/father mean here, and what role did the anime play in creating this image of Goku as an lovable,loving klutz instead of a good-natured but ultimately crass man-child.
You're right. That's why I said that he has shown this to some extent in the main series though. But there are a few other examples where his answers during interviews seem to contradict what was shown in the writing. I merely used Goku's relationship to his family as more of an example to use as a springboard.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Eternal Super Saiyan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:50 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
GamerSkull wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote:
I don't mind people that enjoy the dubs more myself. (Hell, I like both even if I prefer the Japanese).
I think my problem just comes down to people defending mistranslation or straight-up changes like it's a good thing. It's fine to like it, I guess but...
It's just acting like DBZ was all the better for it and then accusing me of being elitist when all I want is the accurate dialogue that bothers me somewhat.
That mentality doesn't make you elitist. AT least in my opinion. I'm referring to the people who think they're better or "true fans" for watching the series in Japanese, even with the modern dubs.
And then some of those people who love to bring down the Japanese original, end up binging on Super. I know a few who literally did that. :P

For quite some time I've had a relatively neutral mindset on both dubs, and mistranslations don't matter as long as they are not way overboard. I actually grew up with English dubbing years ago.
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