Things that grind your gears

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:27 pm

ABED wrote:My biggest beef with it went away when I finally understood DB isn't a superhero story. They weren't trying to save the world. They let Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs because they wanted a fight. It's so weird that it took me 20 years to realize it when it wasn't hidden. Some of that is the dub and a lot of that is my ignorance of genres foreign to western culture.
I was never able to come around to that, not because of the dub or because of superhero tropes barging into my perception of DB, I just find it really morally repugnant to know something bad is going to happen and choose not to solve it because you want to have fun. A lot of DB stuff rubs me the wrong way for how it almost glorifies selfish pursuits of one's own whims at the cost of all else.

And then there's this too:
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:29 pm

Fine about being morally repugnant, but they've made choices like that before. It shouldn't matter anyway. Characters don't have to make good or moral choices, just interesting choices.

As for the pages you're posting, those are Viz's lines and I don't know how close they are translating them. It's possible a seemingly minor change in dialog could radically alter the meaning.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:35 pm

ABED wrote:Fine about being morally repugnant, but they've made choices like that before. It shouldn't matter anyway. Characters don't have to make good or moral choices, just interesting choices.

As for the pages you're posting, those are Viz's lines and I don't know how close they are translating them. It's possible a seemingly minor change in dialog could radically alter the meaning.
I think its mostly a tone problem. I find the really messed up things they do in the Hunt for DBs arc really funny since a lot of it comes down to terrible people getting karma for it. In a story about the apocalypse and annihilation of the entire world where everyone dies? Harder for me to swallow.

Gaffer Tape used them for his DB Dissection video and he typically checks translation stuff like this before posting so I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume it's legit. There's also the fact the heroes are proactive for the entire rest of the arc, trying to preemptively stop things at any given opportunity, except this one.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:41 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:Fine about being morally repugnant, but they've made choices like that before. It shouldn't matter anyway. Characters don't have to make good or moral choices, just interesting choices.

As for the pages you're posting, those are Viz's lines and I don't know how close they are translating them. It's possible a seemingly minor change in dialog could radically alter the meaning.
I think its mostly a tone problem. I find the really messed up things they do in the Hunt for DBs arc really funny since a lot of it comes down to terrible people getting karma for it. In a story about the apocalypse and annihilation of the entire world where everyone dies? Harder for me to swallow.

Gaffer Tape used them for his DB Dissection video and he typically checks translation stuff like this before posting so I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume it's legit. There's also the fact the heroes are proactive for the entire rest of the arc, trying to preemptively stop things at any given opportunity, except this one.
Are they really proactive? Regardless, the characters aren't acting out of character. They are very concrete bound. When a danger presents itself in front of them, then yes, they will stop it, but they don't go out of their way to do so, especially if there's a fight to be had. They are first and foremost martial artists. Again, not superheroes. Goku put winning the Tenkaichi Budokai above more expedient ways of saving the world. They are the same characters they always were.

Given how out there the stakes are once you get to the later arcs, I find it impossible to be bothered by their choices that put the world or universe in peril.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:44 pm

ABED wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
ABED wrote:Fine about being morally repugnant, but they've made choices like that before. It shouldn't matter anyway. Characters don't have to make good or moral choices, just interesting choices.

As for the pages you're posting, those are Viz's lines and I don't know how close they are translating them. It's possible a seemingly minor change in dialog could radically alter the meaning.
I think its mostly a tone problem. I find the really messed up things they do in the Hunt for DBs arc really funny since a lot of it comes down to terrible people getting karma for it. In a story about the apocalypse and annihilation of the entire world where everyone dies? Harder for me to swallow.

Gaffer Tape used them for his DB Dissection video and he typically checks translation stuff like this before posting so I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume it's legit. There's also the fact the heroes are proactive for the entire rest of the arc, trying to preemptively stop things at any given opportunity, except this one.
Are they really proactive? Regardless, the characters aren't acting out of character. They are very concrete bound. When a danger presents itself in front of them, then yes, they will stop it, but they don't go out of their way to do so, especially if there's a fight to be had. They are first and foremost martial artists. Again, not superheroes. Goku put winning the Tenkaichi Budokai above more expedient ways of saving the world. They are the same characters they always were.
They certainly try to definitively win for the rest of the arc. When they discover Gero has even more Androids in reserve they immediately try to find and kill him before he can turn them on. When 18 starts beating on Vegeta, everyone jumps in to gang up on them to kill them. Piccolo tries to kill 17 to prevent Cell's perfection, Vegeta then Future Trunks try to kill Semi-Perfect Cell (before Vegeta gets goaded to help him), they invent and are willing to use a shut down remote to cheat a victory instead of fighting,... They don't seem overly concerned with stroking their own egos or holding back preventative measures in order to win.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:52 pm

Some of them do, but again, they are very concrete bound. If they are inconsistent, it's not the writing. It's because people can have inconsistent actions even if they are consistent in their philosophies or ideas. It's hard to explain. Like I said, they are concrete bound. They are no longer up against some abstract threat. In the same way that Piccolo was eager to fight Freeza after learning of a powerful villain, but I doubt he would've kicked the hornets nest if he didn't have to upon learning how powerful he was.

Goku isn't all that bothered by Cell having become perfect. Remember, he'll let enemies reach full power for the sake of a better fight.

And of course they are trying to win. The threat is now out. It's not like they let Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs with the intention of losing.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:56 pm

ABED wrote:Some of them do, but again, they are very concrete bound. If they are inconsistent, it's not the writing. It's because people can have inconsistent actions even if they are consistent in their philosophies or ideas. It's hard to explain. Like I said, they are concrete bound. They are no longer up against some abstract threat. In the same way that Piccolo was eager to fight Freeza after learning of a powerful villain, but I doubt he would've kicked the hornet's nest if he didn't have to upon learning how powerful he was.

Goku isn't all that bothered by Cell having become perfect. Remember, he'll let enemies reach full power for the sake of a better fight.

And of course they are trying to win. The threat is now out. It's not like they let Dr. Gero complete the cyborgs with the intention of losing.
I mean, acting cocky against the vague threat of Freeza thinking you're hot stuff only to get knocked down should probably tell you something when you hear that another, also vague threat, ACTUALLY managed to kill you in the future, just using Piccolo as an example. Instead, he doesn't learn anything and goes through the motions. By the same token, why does he bother with the vague threat of Perfect Cell? He might as well just sit back and say "Meh, Saiyans'll train and handle it".
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Gaffer Tape » Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:59 pm

I've already had really in-depth and fascinating conversations on this topic with Kunzait and Cipher when I put out my video on the subject. And of course writing the video itself took a lot of time and effort too. I think it's a great subject to discuss. But I'm kinda burned out on it at this point in time, so I'm going to sit it out this time. But since my interpretation of a line is in question, I do at least have to weigh in on that before I go. It is wise, ABED, to question the Viz translation, but in this case, they are completely spot on. For reference, here is the same line translated for the subtitles of the DVD by Steve Simmons, who has a reputation for being as literal and on-the-nose as is reasonably possible. And before anyone tries to correct me, he is credited for the subtitles for the "Tournament Saga" of Dragon Ball, not Clyde Mandelin. As you can see, his translation is almost exactly the same.

"The mastery of martial arts is not so that you can win fights, nor is it for you to be told by girls, 'Oh, you sure are strong! *smack*!' Through learning the martial arts, you will grow healthier, both in body and mind, and by doing so, you can take what was given when you were born and spend your lives more enjoyably, and to their fullest extent. However, if there should be some enemy who would use unwarranted power to threaten yourself or other innocent people, 'Wham-mo!' you are to pop him one in the mouth!"
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:09 pm

I mean, acting cocky against the vague threat of Freeza thinking you're hot stuff only to get knocked down should probably tell you something when you hear that another, also vague threat, ACTUALLY managed to kill you in the future, just using Piccolo as an example. Instead, he doesn't learn anything and goes through the motions. By the same token, why does he bother with the vague threat of Perfect Cell? He might as well just sit back and say "Meh, Saiyans'll train and handle it".
And I think you might learn that lesson if you were unsuccessful in your goal. In Goku's case, he defeated Freeza and Piccolo. In the case of the cyborgs, they now have advanced warning and can prepare for a proper fight. I don't know what you're getting at, but whether you agree with their choices doesn't matter. This is what THEY do. Vague threats are not as real to them as something right in front of them. It grinds my gears when characters don't learn from failures, like Vegeta. In Goku's case, as reckless as he is, he's often victorious.

While I can see Roshi's comment as stop evil, it doesn't necessarily mean, find evil wherever it's hiding and stop it. Moreover, Goku is not Muten Roshi. He might have been his student, but he has his own goals, one of which is to fight strong opponents often when his master and friends disagree with him.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:22 pm

ABED wrote:And I think you might learn that lesson if you were unsuccessful in your goal. In Goku's case, he defeated Freeza and Piccolo. In the case of the cyborgs, they now have advanced warning and can prepare for a proper fight. I don't know what you're getting at, but whether you agree with their choices doesn't matter. This is what THEY do. Vague threats are not as real to them as something right in front of them. It grinds my gears when characters don't learn from failures, like Vegeta. In Goku's case, as reckless as he is, he's often victorious.
Victorious only through flukes, really. It's not like any of their attributed success' were due solely to the training, it's that and lots of dumb luck on their part most of which doesn't prevent them from getting hurt or dying in the process either. I mean, they got an advanced warning for the Saiyan's too, trained like hell too and most of them died anyway, and the Androids already killed them too!
ABED wrote:While I can see Roshi's comment as stop evil, it doesn't necessarily mean, find evil wherever it's hiding and stop it. Moreover, Goku is not Muten Roshi. He might have been his student, but he has his own goals, one of which is to fight strong opponents often when his master and friends disagree with him.
That feels like an arbitrary distinction really, evils not to be punished if it's not right up in your face? I mean, if they didn't know about the existence of Gero at all that's fine but they do and have the means to find him. They're just being selfish and not learning from previous incidents. With the Roshi quote in mind, they're not even good martial artists really, they're just fighting junkies.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:31 pm

My headache is even bigger now, I thought elkrolo wasnt talking about character morality... ok that's it! What's everyone even saying? Aside from time travel, what ARE you guys talking about?

EDIT:To be fair, Goku was so dumb he didnt get what Roshi was getting at...
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:46 pm

Victorious only through flukes, really. It's not like any of their attributed success' were due solely to the training, it's that and lots of dumb luck on their part most of which doesn't prevent them from getting hurt or dying in the process either. I mean, they got an advanced warning for the Saiyan's too, trained like hell too and most of them died anyway, and the Androids already killed them too!
But victories nonetheless. If they failed constantly, that would be one thing, but they won each time ultimately, so no pressing need to learn the lesson. When Vegeta gets his ass handed to him and doesn't learn, that's what bugs me.

None of this matters. This isn't a morality tale. It doesn't matter if you agree with their choices.
That feels like an arbitrary distinction really, evils not to be punished if it's not right up in your face?
It's not arbitrary. It's the opposite. Some vague possible danger isn't going to register as strongly as a danger that's right in front of you. Are they reckless? Yes, and? They aren't superheroes. The job of any story isn't to make you agree with the protagonists, it's to get the audience interested. We don't have to agree with their goals and being fighting junkies, a point that has been made explicitly in the series and Goku never denied, but as long as it's interesting, why does it matter?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:29 pm

ABED wrote:it's not arbitrary. It's the opposite. Some vague possible danger isn't going to register as strongly as a danger that's right in front of you. Are they reckless? Yes, and? They aren't superheroes. The job of any story isn't to make you agree with the protagonists, it's to get the audience interested. We don't have to agree with their goals and being fighting junkies, a point that has been made explicitly in the series and Goku never denied, but as long as it's interesting, why does it matter?
The Saiyan's registered pretty strongly even if they were just vaguely known about and the training there didn't help most of them survive, why is it suddenly plausible against the Androids as a solution when they're predestined to die again?

My point is that's its not interesting, especially since the story very clearly knows its kind of BS they don't solve the problem and has Toriyama throw any excuse he can to cover it up. It also doesn't help this scene starts a trend where the cast will proceed to oscillate between being fighting junkies to pragmatic whenever authorial fiat needs it too with no one ever learning anything, repeating this ad infinitum.

If the story tried to maybe point out how it's everyone's fault this all goes wrong I might find it interesting but the most we get is Goku off handedly saying he attracts trouble which is too little too late.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:21 pm

Completely different scenario with the Saiyan invasion. That was an invasion they couldn't stop. They didn't face the consequences of a bad choice like with the Cyborgs.

It's not BS that they don't solve the problem beforehand. Their goal was to fight them. Toriyama didn't throw an excuse. It's in character to do this sort of thing. And the cast doesn't go back and forth. Like I said, when the problem is in front of them, they try to solve it. And they didn't need to learn because they won every time. Even if it's by the seat of their pants, they still win. It's not like Vegeta who constantly loses for the same reason and never seems to learn.
If the story tried to maybe point out how it's everyone's fault this all goes wrong I might find it interesting but the most we get is Goku off handedly saying he attracts trouble which is too little too late.
It does. Where have you been? It's constantly being pointed out that they often create these problems for themselves, but that's who these characters are. They are not superheroes! Goku tells Kuririn he knows letting Vegeta go is not a good thing.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:05 am

Another thing that bugs me is the idea that warrior races lower the mortal levels of universes and should be destroyed...………. :x
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:42 am

Claiming early DB is mostly comedic.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hawk9211 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:44 am

ABED wrote:Claiming early DB is mostly comedic.
I would also add,"Og dB was a slog to get through I only enjoyed the tournaments and king Piccolo arc."
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by sintzu » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:52 am

Hawk9211 wrote:"Og dB was a slog to get through I only enjoyed the tournaments and king Piccolo arc."
Nothing was worse than Z's Namek pacing. That thing took forever to get through.
ABED wrote:Claiming early DB is mostly comedic.
There was nothing funny about Bora and Krillin's deaths. :cry:
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hawk9211 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:02 am

sintzu wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:"Og dB was a slog to get through I only enjoyed the tournaments and king Piccolo arc."
Nothing was worse than Z's Namek pacing. That thing took forever to get through.
ABED wrote:Claiming early DB is mostly comedic.
There was nothing funny about Bora and Krillin's deaths. :cry:
rra was pretty bad too thanks to the filler.But I was pointing how they only dislike a small portion of series(pilaf and rra) and somehow the whole series was a drag.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:31 am

The Namek part can be a slog, but I find the middle part of the Buu arc far worse.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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