Things that grind your gears

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Koitsukai
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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:34 am

While I don't agree with the majority of this take on UI, I do agree that the manga portrayed it in a poorly fashion. Achieving it on the spot, I mean. Goku just looks at Roshi, picks up a tip, then tries it and bam. There was no hint at UI in previous arcs, not since RoF. It seemed so easy that I wonder how come Whis failed to help him with that? it only took Roshi dodging Jiren a couple of times. He just needed somebody to tell him to calm the fuck down.

The anime did it much better IMO. While, yes, the anime went another route(one that doesn't quite match what Toriyama intended, in the anime it is not a matter of a quiet spirit), at least it's more believable that he got there because of a fluke, plus he had already trained to attain this form/technique. He was working on it, and a certain situation provided the perfect moment. If only Goku had just relaxed and taken a deep breath inside the genki dama instead of going nuts and losing conscience...

Overall, I'm not fully happy with either version, an amalgamation of both would be perfect. One where Goku's been trying to learn this technique, he doesn't just get the jist of it on the spot without any previous attempts, and one where UI does rely on a smoother mindset.

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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by RashFaustinho » Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:38 am

PurestEvil wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:18 am Complicated? It is literally just a fighter's instincts being enhanced by god ki to the point of the body totally relying on it.
Doesn't look like this at all, since he gets a generic power boost like any other form before, not just "instincts".

Also, Complicated to be implemented in a Dragon Ball setting. Because an auto-dodge that is supposed to unwinnable against everyone is doomed to crumble to power creep, you cannot present it in a "absolute" way like they tried with the Manga preview tournament between gods. If you're planning to going forward with the protagonists and the villains it's just doomed to not work (like it already did, after all, considering how many people already punched UI Sign / Blanco Goku)
Kaioken operates in a similar fashion.
Kaioken only changes the color of your Ki. Doesn't change the shape of your eyes or the color of your hair like a Super Saiyan transformation.
This is like rhetorically asking what the point of Super Saiyan was with the its basis being "Goku was going to get stronger anyways!"
Since it is an angelic form, UI cements the connection between Goku and Whis in regards to Whis' mentorship. As we see in the start of this new arc with Vegeta starting to follow the Hakai path, this will grow in narrative significance.
I can see the connection with Whis' trainings, but that's something that the Granola Arc introduced and expanded upon, so that UI Blanco could have room for improvement, and give it a reason to exist.
Before that, against Jiren and even against Moro, none of this looked like to work this way.
The narrative that was presented was that UI Sign was the incomplete state before reaching the full form of UI Blanco, and UI Blanco was the Mastering state of the technique (which isn't, because now even UI Blanco itself is not the real deal apparently).
The form has been... pretentious, to say the least, only to reveal during the Granola Arc that it's just another step
This can apply to the super saiyan god forms. Tinting Goku's hair whatever color and calling it a new form has been going on since digital art became a popular medium in social media.
Besides, it is an angelic form, and angels have white hair. So no, I would not say it is "uninspired".
Goku God in 2013 was heavily criticized in his design due to his heavy resemblance to Kaioken, and also the big red pupils that made him look more cute.
Not mine opinion, I'm just saying what I saw during BoG 1st theathrical release here in Europe.

Personally, I prefer God over UI because even it was unintentional, I liked more the idea of slimming the body and being almost a total opposite of SSJ3 and SSJ4.
But as far as UI goes... Aside from the cold look, I don't honestly see anything good about its design. Both in Sign and Blanco forms it's plain, boring, doesn't make anything truly interesting whatever it is giving it monkey hair or slimmering the physique. Feels like a more bland God 2.0. It just bets all on his coolness factor.

But hey, maybe that's just me, because I'm conscious that the form is very popoular for that reason

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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by SuperSunnyDee » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:49 am

Ya know what really grinds my gears?

- Fans that are too dismissive of the importance of reasonable power scaling.
- Fans that are averse to acknowledging the importance of knowing that power scaling will never be a hard science.
- Dragon Ball being almost completely ignored by companies in favor of Z.
- This one inescapable feeling that we’ll get a dozen more games focused on Z before we get anything that considers Super strong enough to carry its own weight.

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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by Kinokima » Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:41 am

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:34 am While I don't agree with the majority of this take on UI, I do agree that the manga portrayed it in a poorly fashion. Achieving it on the spot, I mean. Goku just looks at Roshi, picks up a tip, then tries it and bam. There was no hint at UI in previous arcs, not since RoF. It seemed so easy that I wonder how come Whis failed to help him with that? it only took Roshi dodging Jiren a couple of times. He just needed somebody to tell him to calm the fuck down.

The anime did it much better IMO. While, yes, the anime went another route(one that doesn't quite match what Toriyama intended, in the anime it is not a matter of a quiet spirit), at least it's more believable that he got there because of a fluke, plus he had already trained to attain this form/technique. He was working on it, and a certain situation provided the perfect moment. If only Goku had just relaxed and taken a deep breath inside the genki dama instead of going nuts and losing conscience...

Overall, I'm not fully happy with either version, an amalgamation of both would be perfect. One where Goku's been trying to learn this technique, he doesn't just get the jist of it on the spot without any previous attempts, and one where UI does rely on a smoother mindset.

Personally I think how Goku obtained UI in the anime was much worse. Him obtaining it based on a fluke takes away any development. The manga version was certainly rushed but at least they tied it to all the things Goku has learned from his many teachers and then tying it back to the lessons he learned from Roshi. That is way more interesting thematically then what the anime came up with..,Oh he got hit by his own spirit Bomb and that triggered UI.

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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:14 am

He first gets it as a fluke but he attains the full UI through effort. He has still yet to master it.
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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by Kinokima » Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:37 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:14 am He first gets it as a fluke but he attains the full UI through effort. He has still yet to master it.
In the anime there was not really any effort . In the manga yes.

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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:24 pm

Kinokima wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:37 pm
ABED wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:14 am He first gets it as a fluke but he attains the full UI through effort. He has still yet to master it.
In the anime there was not really any effort . In the manga yes.
Yeah there was. He's drained of his energy after using it the first time and he spends the rest of the tournament pushing himself past his limits knowing the only way to beat Jiren is to attain it again. So yes, he does put plenty of effort into it in the anime.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by Kinokima » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:39 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:24 pm
Kinokima wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:37 pm
ABED wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:14 am He first gets it as a fluke but he attains the full UI through effort. He has still yet to master it.
In the anime there was not really any effort . In the manga yes.
Yeah there was. He's drained of his energy after using it the first time and he spends the rest of the tournament pushing himself past his limits knowing the only way to beat Jiren is to attain it again. So yes, he does put plenty of effort into it in the anime.

Yeah no pushing yourself past your limits against a hard opponent should not just mean you suddenly obtain a form where you can dodge every move that makes no sense. Must be convenient to obtain some powerful new move that can dodge everything because your opponent is just that strong. Every character in the TOP pushed themselves so why does Goku specifically get UI here? What is it about pushing yourself specifically that makes you reach UI. The anime never attempts to explain and just makes it seem like being in a difficult life or death situation causes UI to trigger and I just find that pretty lackluster writing.


In the manga he obtains UI because he comes to a realization from watching Roshi and applies all his past lessons. While it’s just as sudden it’s built on things from his past so I can understand his epiphany in the manga. He just needed a reminder from his former Master. And in the manga he actually continues to train and learn to understand the principles of the move. While I don’t think things in the manga with UI are in anyway perfect how he obtains the form is much better than whatever the anime did.

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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:44 pm

It wasn't sudden, he's actively trying to figure it out. This isn't convenient for him. He has to get the living crap kicked out of him and nearly lose a lot. Goku specifically achieves it because he's among the most talented fighters in the universe and he's trying to master the technique once he knows it's possible.

The thing about the technique is that it's not about effort. It's about lack of effort. It's about just reacting.

The idea that Muten Roshi knew how to do it is asinine. Coulda used that technique YEARS ago.
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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by Jack Bz » Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:28 pm

ABED wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:44 pm It wasn't sudden, he's actively trying to figure it out. This isn't convenient for him. He has to get the living crap kicked out of him and nearly lose a lot. Goku specifically achieves it because he's among the most talented fighters in the universe and he's trying to master the technique once he knows it's possible.

The thing about the technique is that it's not about effort. It's about lack of effort. It's about just reacting.

The idea that Muten Roshi knew how to do it is asinine. Coulda used that technique YEARS ago.
It's not that Roshi knows ultra instinct, it's that he's been so out classed power level wise for decades that he has spent his most recent training perfecting his movement as best he could instead. This ends up highlighting another path to victory for Goku, that mastering movement is the way to beat an opponent like Jiren who is so strong that he can't be overpowered right now. Saying Roshi knows ultra instinct is an extremely reductive take of that scene. He has honed his movement and reactions enough to dodge Jiren suppressing himself to a level appropriate to not kill Roshi, which for all we know could be the level of Nappa. Jiren then amps up his power a bit and knocks him out in one karate chop, but the point to Goku had been made.

The whole point of the tournament of power and ultra instinct in the manga was reinforcing the manga's general theme that power isn't the ultimate way to victory, and that technique/honing the power you already have can matter just as much, as well as team work. Roshi chastising Goku for saying he needs more power with "Who taught you that? Freeza?" was a great moment, and the idea that Goku attaining universe destroying powers made him more complacent in remembering his old teachings is an interesting idea. Ultra instinct conveys those themes well. There's a satisfying thematic consistency that the anime doesn't have there.

Goku attaining ultra instinct is much less satisfying in the anime, because nothing about how he attains it has anything to do with the forms specialties. It's always that he's just in a bind. Why would getting the crap beaten out of him mean that his body enters a state of perfected martial arts? It doesn't really come together in the same way.

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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:49 am

Except that all this is off screen and goes against his development where he went into permanent retirement happily because the next generation of fighters had arrived.
Jack Bz wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:28 pm Why would getting the crap beaten out of him mean that his body enters a state of perfected martial arts? It doesn't really come together in the same way.
Why wouldn't it? Desperation due to ones back being against the wall lead to all sorts of developments. Pressure has always lead to developments for Goku. He thrives under it.

And it should be noted that Goku doesn't win, and he doesn't perfect UI in the tournament. He stil has further to go.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by Kinokima » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:56 am

And Roshi is still fighting in the anime version so really he comes out of retirement in both versions. That has nothing to do with Goku grasping something from watching Roshi’s movement and remembering his teachings and then his other Master’s teachings up to Whis in the manga.

And again you are not explaining why “desperation” specifically will lead you to learn how to dodge every move. Reaching a new level of power within yourself because you are desperate makes sense. Suddenly understanding and grasping a new technique (because that is what UI really is) because you are desperate makes absolutely no thematic sense. So yes back to the original point Goku puts no actual effort into understanding and learning UI in the anime TOP. It’s just comes upon him because he is desperate.

Goku doesn’t perfect UI in either version but suddenly learning a technique should come from understanding not just because he is having a difficult fight or is about to die because then he is just getting the move out of convenience.

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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:31 am

ABED wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:49 am Except that all this is off screen and goes against his development where he went into permanent retirement happily because the next generation of fighters had arrived.
It's meant to be a surprise. Roshi being surpassed decades ago and yet still being able to give Goku something to learn is the whole point. It doesn't ruin his development for Goku's old master to remind him of some lessons he's already learned but is taking for granted in this moment. His value was his method, and just as much about all of Goku's teachers as it is about Roshi himself; bringing back some old Dragon Ball lessons in a post-Z story. It's actually a decent justification for using him in the first place.
ABED wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:49 am Why wouldn't it? Desperation due to ones back being against the wall lead to all sorts of developments. Pressure has always lead to developments for Goku. He thrives under it.
Because it has nothing to do with what the technique is thematically. It's not meant to be, for example, the same as some sort of primal reaction like super saiyan is, that unleashes power. It's the ultimate martial arts technique of the angels; it's not meant to be like all his other power ups, and there were more satisfying ideas they could have used to explore that.
ABED wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:49 am And it should be noted that Goku doesn't win, and he doesn't perfect UI in the tournament. He stil has further to go.
That's a good thing, but there's no clear path forward with that method. It's just entirely a fluke. The manga ends in the same situation but there are at least some concepts left for Goku to pursue that isn't just "get yourself in a dire situation".

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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:01 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:31 am
ABED wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:49 am Except that all this is off screen and goes against his development where he went into permanent retirement happily because the next generation of fighters had arrived.
It's meant to be a surprise. Roshi being surpassed decades ago and yet still being able to give Goku something to learn is the whole point. It doesn't ruin his development for Goku's old master to remind him of some lessons he's already learned but is taking for granted in this moment. His value was his method, and just as much about all of Goku's teachers as it is about Roshi himself; bringing back some old Dragon Ball lessons in a post-Z story. It's actually a decent justification for using him in the first place.
ABED wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:49 am Why wouldn't it? Desperation due to ones back being against the wall lead to all sorts of developments. Pressure has always lead to developments for Goku. He thrives under it.
Because it has nothing to do with what the technique is thematically. It's not meant to be, for example, the same as some sort of primal reaction like super saiyan is, that unleashes power. It's the ultimate martial arts technique of the angels; it's not meant to be like all his other power ups, and there were more satisfying ideas they could have used to explore that.
ABED wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:49 am And it should be noted that Goku doesn't win, and he doesn't perfect UI in the tournament. He stil has further to go.
That's a good thing, but there's no clear path forward with that method. It's just entirely a fluke. The manga ends in the same situation but there are at least some concepts left for Goku to pursue that isn't just "get yourself in a dire situation".
Of course it's a surprise. There's no build up and no sense to it. Having Muten Roshi do a 180 is awful. He was over and done with. It absolutely goes against his development because last we saw of him he was out of the fighting game completely. You can't try and tell me how one aspect goes against theme, but then deny how another completely contradicts another's character development. Muten Roshi wasn't teaching Goku something. I'd be fine if he was passing some knowledge to Goku, but he was fighting again. Goku learned from seeing him in battle. How is that not a blatant turnabout?

It wasn't a fluke. The first time was, but the second time, he was figuring it out and building up to it.
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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:30 pm

ABED wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:01 pm Of course it's a surprise. There's no build up and no sense to it. Having Muten Roshi do a 180 is awful. He was over and done with. It absolutely goes against his development because last we saw of him he was out of the fighting game completely. You can't try and tell me how one aspect goes against theme, but then deny how another completely contradicts another development.
Roshi's 180 was either when he was brought back fighting in RoF, or the fact fact that he is even fighting in the ToP in the first place over Yamcha or Goten/Trunks. So no, the last time we saw him he wasn't out of the fighting game completely. If he's going to be used in the tournament, him being used as a teacher makes the most sense with who he is. All he does is remind his former student to focus more on his movement than just power, and dodges someone who has heavily suppressed themselves in a tournament where killing isn't allowed. It's a relatively minor feat in the grand scheme of things, with the only thing it solves being helping Goku. It's specifically framed as a reinforcement of old lessons that Goku has been neglecting.

But even then if it was a turn around, it's more egregious to contradict a concept in the arc it is being introduced than to contradict a statement from decades ago.
Muten Roshi wasn't teaching Goku something. He was fighting and Goku learned from seeing him in battle. How is that not a blatant turnabout?
He literally gives Goku a speech on why Goku's mindset is wrong and won't work against Jiren, and says "here's one last lesson from the turtle school" to show off what he said with a demonstration. He wasn't fighting because he thought he would actually hurt Jiren in any way, he was fighting to impart a lesson.
It wasn't a fluke. The first time was, but the second time, he was figuring it out and building up to it.
It always comes in the same situation. He is getting his ass handed to him, and then it activates itself when he's on the ropes. It's no different each time it activates. He just gets a bit better at actually using it each time.

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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:30 am

I should be clear (I thought I was from context) that I meant last we saw him before Super), Muten Roshi was retired.
Jack Bz wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:30 pmBut even then if it was a turn around, it's more egregious to contradict a concept in the arc it is being introduced than to contradict a statement from decades ago.
It wasn't a statement, it was an action. Muten Roshi had one of the most compelling arcs in the entire series.
he was fighting to impart a lesson.
He was fighting, full stop.
He just gets a bit better at actually using it each time.
In other words, he was learning.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by MCDaveG » Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:13 pm

RashFaustinho wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:55 am There are some things that I don't like, and mostly it's made worse by the fandom.

Gogeta, Vegito and their fandoms are probably at the top tier spot. These two characters are the most wanked things in existence in this brand, the fandom love towards them is simply excessive, and people often cannot accept the fact that you think that a given X character is stronger or better than them, or that you simply don't like the fusions in general. In official products such as videogames it doesn't get any better. They get the strongest cards in Dokkan / Heroes, they get cutscenes out of nowhere in FighterZ, they are always bringer of the hype in any DLC content, eclipsing any character that can arrive together with them.
The wanking for these characters goes on and beyond anything that can be conceived.

Also, I don't like Ultra Instinct. Like, at all. I consider it one of the worst ideas ever conceived for Dragon Ball.
In the past I triggered some people with this, because to other people both UI Sign Goku and UI Blanco Goku look "cool" with these icy cold eyes, and they have some very good animation during ToP, so some fans can't get over the fact that I don't like him in any way, shape or form. As much """cool""" a Goku with disheleved hair can look, I much rather Blue Evolution.
I remember first time seeing fusion of Goten and Trunks, Goku and Vegeta later on TV in the Buu arc, I was blown away by the whole concept and how it looked. How Gotenks had spiky black hair with purple side-burns coming from Trunks, or Vegito's outfit being combination of the both character's clothes and the double voice... Total!
Wasn't that blown away with Gogeta when I saw him in the movie, but was thinking yeah, it's basically ''Gotenks'' type fusion of Goku and Vegeta.

But yeah, as you say, with them being rehashed so much and presented as the ultimate thing, it really loses the magic that I felt for them previously. It also adds up with me not being much of fan of SSJ Blue.
I liked the SSJ God as a one time concept, but it started to add up to rudiculous levels. Vegeta gets it from nowhere, because that's what Vegeta does and sure, their hair turn blue. Ultra Instinct would be great concept, but why does it turn your hair grey and makes different aura around you? Gods and Angels are still the same looking. Is it something with Saiyans? Does Goku turns into beef steak when thinking about food? No. But when he acts on instincts, he does change... I don't know, I am old fart who found fusions intriguing right after being mesmerized by Super Saiyan changing black hair to blonde with blue eyes, which was darn cool in the 90s. But getting the characters look like a Yu-Gi-Oh cosplay is not so awesome to me nowadays. I have fell in love with the series for this kind of a grounded design realism, that took it visually miles away from any other anime with cliché look. It still is anime, but wasn't this lazy drawn art like Pokémon or overdesigned fantasy character with pointy features, slender looks and huge eyes with emoticon elements for portraying actual emotions like Slayers.

Basically, what grinds my gears is that I think that Dragon Ball hit the ceiling not only storywise, but visually as well... Beerus and Whis are the last interesting designs to me coming from the original author, now it is lazy. Weird plain designs like Anilaza, Giren etc.
Actually, Buu was ingenious in his simplicity. As a kid I was intrigued by his chewing gum abilities and looks and the Buu arc was actually drawn and animated better in anime than the rushed sketches in the manga. Now everyone is plain for no reason.
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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by mute_proxy » Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:09 pm

When characters get knocked out they always have their mouths open, or when before transforming characters close their eyes, dunno why but it somehow bothers me when it's done so often lol

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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by Krillin1994 » Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:32 am

The Spirit Bomb in the TOP bugs me for quite a few reasons.

1. First and foremost this is a technique designed to kill evil beings and is usually seen to be a last resort. Goku using it against someone who was forced to fight in this tournament and isn’t a pure evil being like those he has used it on before seems out of place. Even if as a last resort. Doesn’t feel in character for Goku to sell out on principle with it, especially when you have Jiren praising Vegeta and scolding Toppo over sacrificing principles.

2. The fact that competitors who have been ringed out are allowed to contribute. At this stage Krillin, Tien and Roshi have all been eliminated so it feels strange letting them send energy into the ring, when Frost was erased for trying to interfere from sidelines. We get this allowed with U2 also.

3. Spirit energy has been shown to be different from basic Ki, otherwise it wouldn’t have been such a desperate struggle against Buu needing everyone on Earth. - Gohan would’ve been able to provide enough energy alone. Here we have a spirit bomb formed from the energy of 8 warriors. (3 of whom are human) 5 who are in the middle of a battle so wouldn’t want to offer up too much energy to leave themselves drained. For it to be hyped to be as potent as it appears feels very odd.

4. Notice I said 8 not 9, since Vegeta is stubborn and refuses to provide any energy which also seems odd.

I don’t really get how this spirit bomb formed by a handful of people vastly weaker than Goku in the span of seconds (when it’s required minutes in the past) is the trigger for almost killing Goku/how he thought it would cause any dent on Jiren when 20x his own strength was nothing.

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Re: things that grind your gears

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:11 am

This one is more of a hypothetical thing that might grind my gears in the near future... and may become a reality.

So, I don't have a problem with Granola and Gas wishing to be the strongest, because it's the only way to get there for creeps and weaklings like them, and because it's a new, particular, set of DBs that grant that wish. They are just two balls, and the dragon seems to throw tips and hints at the wisher so they can get their wish. It's kind of a hax dragon, I don't want to say corrupt because it's not, but it's also not as neutral as the other dragons. It's mysterious to say the least.
But... since the arc is closing in on itself and the pace isn't fantastic and we've been spending 7 or 8 chapters on fights, I'm wondering if how or why this dragon works in a different way, will be addressed.
Why 2 balls?
Why no cooldown after using them?
Why the dragon is so user-friendly?
It's like they are set on Very Easy mode.

I don't expect a complex, lore-expanding answer, just an answer. If it's not addressed at all, it will grind my gears.

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