Things that grind your gears

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ABED
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:52 pm

Given how fallible they are in DB, the position of god doesn't seem to mean to Toriyama what you think it means. If Kaioshin was the last line of defense, he did a poor job of it. Need for oxygen isn't a small thing. For some reason you keep brushing it off as trivial.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:08 am

ABED wrote:Given how fallible they are in DB, the position of god doesn't seem to mean to Toriyama what you think it means.
Well I described exactly what they are so..pftt :lol:
If Kaioshin was the last line of defense, he did a poor job of it.
I'm guessing you mean Beerus or something, if you're talking about Buu than he sure did, as has been noted in the show and by fans he's terrible at his job.
Need for oxygen isn't a small thing. For some reason you keep brushing it off as trivial.
Well to a GOD it is and to powerful beings as strong as Goku it should be imo.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:38 am

Well I described exactly what they are so
But you haven't. Kaioshin is a god and he was nothing remotely special.
Well to a GOD it is and to powerful beings as strong as Goku it should be imo.
You keep saying god like it means anything in DB. What does strength have to do with not having to breathe?

"It should be" and that's the question before the court. Why? You haven't answered except for "because he's strong". More to the point, even if you find it odd, why does it grind your gears?
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:36 am

Probably the number one thing that grinds my gears right now is anyone stupid enough to say "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan." They've given it the name "Super Saiyan Blue." Just call it that. It's quicker, shows you follow the show/manga, and doesn't sound as stupid. I know it's something small to get mad over but seriously... fuck anyone who actually says it or "SSJGSSJ/SSGSS."

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:36 am

ABED wrote:Well I described exactly what they are so
But you haven't. Kaioshin is a god and he was nothing remotely special.
A G.O.D (God of Destruction) I most certainly have without a doubt.
You keep saying god like it means anything in DB. What does strength have to do with not having to breathe?
It actually does and I already explained it. However, it's more so to due with capability and battle power. Also, I'm guessing since you"re no longer trying to refute or counter my other points, evidently you must have nothing to say, so I guess this ends here. Although this was all just my opinion to begin with, I'm not saying any of this is fact it's just how I think things should be.
"It should be" and that's the question before the court. Why? You haven't answered except for "because he's strong".

Well that's basically the reason
More to the point, even if you find it odd, why does it grind your gears?
I already stated and explained it, feel free to reread it.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:05 am

There's nothing in the text to support the idea that reaching a certain battle power grants the being the ability to no longer have to breathe to survive

They can destroy a universe, ergo they should be able to survive without oxygen isn't an explanation. You're just saying that the need for oxygen seems trivial in relation to his power, but so what?

Your explanations aren't explanations. They are "he's as strong as a god of destruction and something small like the need to breathe is a liability they shouldn't have". What's wrong with them having a VERY understandable limitation like the need to breathe? Makes way more sense than a peon nearly killing Goku with a peashooter. Why would such a rational need/"limitation" bug anyone?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:19 am

ABED wrote:There's nothing in the text to support the idea that reaching a certain battle power grants the being the ability to no longer have to breathe to survive
Umm maybe not a battle power but a attribute, anyways I never said it did.
They can destroy a universe, ergo they should be able to survive without oxygen isn't an explanation.
Its a little bit more than but that sure, thats reason enough.
Your explanations aren't explanations.
They are
They are "he's as strong as a god of destruction and something small like the need to breathe is a liability they shouldn't have".
they shouldn't.
Last edited by SaiyanGod117 on Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:21 am

SaiyanGod117 wrote:
They are "he's as strong as a god of destruction and something small like the need to breathe is a liability they shouldn't have".
they shouldn't.
Because they're strong. That's your big explanation?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:24 am

Finally you got it. :clap:

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:30 am

SaiyanGod117 wrote:Finally you got it. :clap:
No because I can't get how something so reasonable as the need to breathe always being a factor for Saiyans would greatly annoy anyone.

I get the logic of thinking god ki might alleviate that necessity, but that it would bug anyone to a large degree is utterly silly.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:34 am

ABED wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote:Finally you got it. :clap:
No because I can't get how something so reasonable as the need to breathe always being a factor for Saiyans would bug anyone.

I get the logic of thinking god ki might alleviate that necessity, but that it would bug anyone is utterly silly.
Not even, as I said before in my previous post to illustrate a comparison towards Goku, G.O.D.S are suppose to be the absolute pinnacle of authority and among the mightiest in their respective universeas. Essentially they're comics entities and personified forces of nature as well as the cosmos, inasmuch as they're safe guards for their respective universes thus embody a universal function or necessity. Particularly, which is the reason why they no longer have vulnerabilities to trivial, yes trivial, in comparison to what their sheer role in the universe comprises, let alone, capabilities such as soul erasing, matter manipulation, universal destruction, etc. To let such minor vulnerabilities as being too cold, hot, sick, or unable to breath kill them, much less bother or concern over, with that being said even if they didn't have the role of G.O.D to do.

It would still be utterly preposterous for them have such vulnerabilities because inasmuch as Goku, they also have resistance to lethal attacks ranging from atomic disintegration to completely being wiped from existence to withstanding the pressure of a black hole. Honestly, if a character is on par with or exceedingly surpasses numerous fundamental forces along with astronomical bodies of the universe. While at the same time, able to be killed comically by a simple head dunking in a toilet or plastic bag over their head (Hitman 47 stlye), then that is beyond stupid in my book. The fact that I haven't seen it any other story, in my opinion just proves how ridiculous it is. Likewise, the fact that none of the G.O.D.S have remotely any of those limitations proves how ridiculous it is. For Goku to have such incoviences now is just dumb, maybe earlier in the series but most certainly not when he's rivaling G.O.D.S and even more pressingly surpassing them in certain forms is laughable. Especially, when he has so many defenses and resistance against increasingly much more lethal means, unsurprisingly, just about every one in his tier of power is void of those limitations. So, it's absolutely no excuse why he shouldn't be too, in fact, considering how easy it would be to exploit such a weakness the story calls for it.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:57 am

Goku isn’t a literal God. There’s no reason for him to be able to breathe in space. Also aside from being much stronger than a human Saiyans are basically humans. They’re even able to reproduce with humans for pete sake.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:02 am

Gods don't exist. The rules can be whatever the writer wants. And as the previous poster pointed out, Goku isn't a literal god.
they also have resistance to lethal attacks ranging from atomic disintegration to completely being wiped from existence to withstanding the pressure of a black hole
Is any of this coming from DB?

In your plastic bag scenario, the people were rendered unable to use their hands to pull the bag off their head or remove their head from water. Not exactly funny scenarios. The scene where Goku is nearly drowned by Freeza was a wonderfully dramatic moment in their battle and not as comical as you make it sound.

And nowhere in that post have I seen anything to suggest a good reason why this would greatly annoy you. I guess we're at an impasse.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:59 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:Goku isn’t a literal God. There’s no reason for him to be able to breathe in space. Also aside from being much stronger than a human Saiyans are basically humans. They’re even able to reproduce with humans for pete sake.
Even if he wasn't a god, there's numerous reasons for it, some fanservicey and some practical this is just my opinion and preference. However, what does Saiyans being able to reproduce with humans prove? That's right excatly nothing, from a pure physical aspect apart from their aesthetics they share nothing in common with humans, nonetheless, I never mentioned Goku's race once nor does it matter.
ABED wrote:Gods don't exist. And as the previous poster pointed out, Goku isn't a literal god.
Besides the point, he doesn't have to be a G.O.D. for any of these reasons to apply, although the fact that GODS certainly do exist in the DB Universe and he either rivals or surpasses them, as well as, is the only one on top of the power pyramid scheme (excluding Vegeta) to still stress over such worries bolsters my point. In comparison, it would be like a champion boxer having an amateur defense; moreover, it's just the fact that he is so powerful but his weakness is so pratical. For example, unlike with Beerus his only exploitable weakness would be being having his lifeforce linked to the Kaioshin or Whis needing a God of Destruction alive to stay active. Furthermore, even a look outside DB such as in Marvel where powerful beings need to eat a planet just to keep from dying.
The rules can be whatever the writer wants
This doesn't give them any vindication I have to like them or ignore the scruntiny behind them.
Is any of this coming from DB?
I will just assume right here you've barely seen DB, much less Super. Along with the fact that you keep misconstruing my acronym of the title God of Destruction for the actual word god.
In your plastic bag scenario, the people were rendered unable to use their hands to pull the bag off their head or remove their head from water. Not exactly funny scenarios. The scene where Goku is nearly drowned by Freeza was a wonderfully dramatic moment in their battle and not as comical as you make it sound.
Sounds pretty comical to me all things considered and Goku isn't extempt from any of those scenarios.
And nowhere in that post have I seen anything to suggest a good reason why this would greatly annoy you. I guess we're at an impasse.
Nowhere in any of your post, have you came up with a good reason why it shouldn't for me. So, I will still keep thinking my reasons are valid.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:49 pm

But you still haven't explained why (Goku) being strong should make him inmune to trivial inconvinient weakness?

Him being just strong on itself is not an explanation.

Like for what narrative reason should he not have them? Does him not "trivial" weakness make him a better character?
Lore is NOT story, and it never was, and you should stop spreading this nonsense.
Content is NOT substance.
Bunch of characters doing stuff do NOT make an esemble cast.
Secondary characters are secondary, they do NOT deserve or are entitled to having more screen time.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:52 pm

I will just assume right here you've barely seen DB
You know what they say when you assume? No I haven't seen Super, but I've seen the rest and I don't recall anything about atom disintegration or black holes.
Sounds pretty comical to me all things considered
How? Dunking people's heads in water to suffocate them is comical?
Besides the point, he doesn't have to be a G.O.D. for any of these reasons to apply
Not beside the point and if the writers say so, it's so.
In comparison, it would be like a champion boxer having an amateur defense; moreover, it's just the fact that he is so powerful but his weakness is so pratical.
You're really bad with analogies. Goku's more powerful, he's not a different being like Galactus was and even Galactus needed to feed. It was on a greater scale, but he still needs food to survive. In this case, Goku's power doesn't alleviate his need to breathe. The weakness isn't mundane, it's just a simple and reasonable limitation.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:21 pm

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:But you still haven't explained
I have explained enough and to actually peddle back to another point a previous point on how Goku isn't a god. That argument falls on it's face, as Goku essentially is one, the only thing that enables him not to be a legitimate one is the lack of a comsical role or duty. Beerus's statement of Vegeta being a GOD candidate in another universe concretely solidifies that, correspondingly, if someone laid out comprehensive thorough list of the differences and similarities between Goku and a God of Destruction there would be no more than one or two differences and wall of similarities. Equivalently, those differences would be nothing minor than a personal lair or attendant, the only major prerequisite to officially ascending into a God of Destruction is proficiency or mastery with God Ki as seen with Toppo and Goku has that in abundance. He's already mastered a technique in 30 minutes that none of G.O.D have in their millions years of living. So, in all honestly there should be no reason he still has these weaknesses.
Does him not "trivial" weakness make him a better character?
It depends on what they are, but these make no narrative sense, just like when Goku Black and Zamasu where effected by tear gas and flash bangs in the Goku black arc. Or in the upcoming new chapter in the manga
why (Goku) being strong should make him inmune to trivial inconvinient weakness?
When its inconsistent weaknesses such as tear gas, smoke bombs, unable to survive in space, or the need to put on an artic jacket when evidence says otherwise he shouldn't have them. Also, it's just a personal gripe, IMO from physical and I guess biological standpoint he shouldn't still have these vulnerabilities, unless it's individually peculiar or distinct to him. (I.E. Beerus's link to the Kaioshin, Superman's weakness to Krptonite) Rather a mental or psychological one like he has now with letting his guard down to much, would be a much better one.
Him being just strong on itself is not an explanation.
From a general point of view coupled with comparing him to his contemporaries, I would say yes it is.
Like for what narrative reason should he not have them? .
You tell me that, none of have you have given any reason for why he should still have these weaknesses?
ABED wrote:
I will just assume right here you've barely seen DB
You know what they say when you assume? No I haven't seen Super, but I've seen the rest and there's nothing that implies or outright states becoming stronger removes someone's need for oxygen.No I haven't seen Super, but I've seen the rest and I don't recall anything about atom disintegration or black holes.
All right credibility lost, watch all of the show than come back.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Zephyr » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:46 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:You tell me that, none of have you have given any reason for why he should still have these weaknesses?
Because it's a Toriyama story, where cosmic irony is largely the point.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:47 pm

When its inconsistent weaknesses such as tear gas, smoke bombs, unable to survive in space
One of these things is not like the other. I'm bothered by Goku getting taken down by a peashooter, but the need for oxygen isn't like that at all. It's not a small thing! It's fundamentally different from being susceptible to human level weapons.
I guess biological standpoint he shouldn't still have these vulnerabilities, unless it's individually peculiar or distinct to him.
It's particular to his species. Beerus and Whis are different species and bound by different rules. Even a lower god such as the god of Earth (i.e. Kami) had powers granted to him when he assumed the position.
You tell me that, none of have you have given any reason for why he should still have these weaknesses?
Because the narrative hasn't indicated he doesn't need it or that god ki removes that need.
All right credibility lost, watch all of the show than come back.
I have zero credibility because I haven't seen Super? I've seen the rest of DB. At worst I'm not fully informed.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:08 pm

Zephyr wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote:You tell me that, none of have you have given any reason for why he should still have these weaknesses?
Because it's a Toriyama story, where cosmic irony is largely the point.
More like he didn't think through in the later half.
ABED wrote:I have zero credibility because I haven't seen Super
Yep, there's no way I'm debating with someone who largely doesn't know what I'm talking about.
We can agree to disagree.

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