Things that grind your gears

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15835
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:22 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote:You tell me that, none of have you have given any reason for why he should still have these weaknesses?
Because it's a Toriyama story, where cosmic irony is largely the point.
More like he didn't think through in the later half.
ABED wrote:I have zero credibility because I haven't seen Super
Yep, there's no way I'm debating with someone who largely doesn't know what I'm talking about.
We can agree to disagree.
Or maybe you can take a second to explain. It wouldn't take long to say "he wasn't killed by a black hole". And it doesn't change anything anyway. That doesn't prove god ki makes him immune to needing to breathe. You don't seem to remember that the child of Katatsu wasn't born with the ability to see all of Earth from the Heavenly Realm. That's something an ability granted to Kami/God. Goku has God Ki but that doesn't make him a god.

This is utterly absurd. He didn't think through the latter half over something as trivial whether god ki means you no longer need oxygen? What constitutes "the latter half"?

You're comments are bordering on condescending.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Zephyr
I Live Here
Posts: 3550
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Zephyr » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:05 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:
Zephyr wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote:You tell me that, none of have you have given any reason for why he should still have these weaknesses?
Because it's a Toriyama story, where cosmic irony is largely the point.
More like he didn't think through in the later half.
I mean, probably, but, again, this is a story by Akira Toriyama. I think you're looking in the wrong place if you want airtight, internally consistent, in-universe mechanics, with no incidental brainfarts or deliberate irony anywhere at all. Being super powerful, but still being easily defeated through really conventional means, is funny. Toriyama's bread and butter is telling jokes, you know.

Not that Goku needing to breathe at this (or any) tier of power is actually an inconsistency. I've seen all of Super and I'm just as in the dark as to what the issue is supposed to be. If Battle of Gods is the source of confusion, it's worth pointing out that they were more than likely in the Earth's stratosphere, rather than outer space.

User avatar
SaiyanGod117
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:31 am

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:17 pm

ABED wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote:
Zephyr wrote: Because it's a Toriyama story, where cosmic irony is largely the point.
More like he didn't think through in the later half.
ABED wrote:I have zero credibility because I haven't seen Super
Yep, there's no way I'm debating with someone who largely doesn't know what I'm talking about.
We can agree to disagree.
Or maybe you can take a second to explain. It wouldn't take long to say "he wasn't killed by a black hole". And it doesn't change anything anyway. That doesn't prove god ki makes him immune to needing to breathe. You don't seem to remember that the child of Katatsu wasn't born with the ability to see all of Earth from the Heavenly Realm. That's something an ability granted to Kami/God. Goku has God Ki but that doesn't make him a god.

This is utterly absurd. He didn't think through the latter half over something as trivial whether god ki means you no longer need oxygen? What constitutes "the latter half"?

You're comments are bordering on condescending.
It's the truth you don't what I'm talking about, since you haven't watched Super. There is no point in discussing further.
Zephyr wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote:
Zephyr wrote: Because it's a Toriyama story, where cosmic irony is largely the point.
More like he didn't think through in the later half.
I mean, probably, but, again, this is a story by Akira Toriyama. I think you're looking in the wrong place if you want airtight, internally consistent, in-universe mechanics, with no incidental brainfarts or deliberate irony anywhere at all. Being super powerful, but still being easily defeated through really conventional means, is funny. Toriyama's bread and butter is telling jokes, you know.

Not that Goku needing to breathe at this (or any) tier of power is actually an inconsistency. I've seen all of Super and I'm just as in the dark as to what the issue is supposed to be. If Battle of Gods is the source of confusion, it's worth pointing out that they were more than likely in the Earth's stratosphere, rather than outer space.
It's a personal gripe, this my issue, people told me to explain why I didn't like it and I did. I realize how things are, I just wish they were different. Nothing more, nothing less.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15835
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:44 pm

It's the truth you don't what I'm talking about, since you haven't watched Super. There is no point in discussing further.
You act like it's this HUGE issue. It isn't even something like this is a huge discussion that needs to be had. It's just a few facts. Good lord. It's not like we're discussing current events and politics. All it requires is "X and Y happened". It's like you don't want to discuss further because you know this is an irrational issue to be so bugged about. I reiterate, you think it's illogical that humanoid character has to breathe. I shouldn't have to do anything more than say that out loud for any reasonable person to see how silly it is. I did a quick google search. It's not a real black hole he survived. (So even you're wrong on that point) See how easy that is? There were only two things you mentioned that I wasn't informed on.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
SaiyanGod117
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:31 am

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:48 pm

not a real black hole he survived. (So even you're wrong on that point) See how easy that is?
To show you don't know what your talking about yes, it's no use debating and I've given an essays worth already. People just got other things to do.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5850
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:47 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:To show you don't know what your talking about yes, it's no use debating and I've given an essays worth already. People just got other things to do.
Okay, well, I have seen Super all the way through (unfortunately) and have read this entire conversation, and I still can't fathom what you're talking about or what logical rationale you have behind tying the ability to punch someone really hard to whether or not they have to breathe. Obviously you're free to let whatever you want bother you, so I have no qualms if that bugs you, even if I don't agree. But you are acting extremely rude and condescending to absolutely every person who has challenged you in this thread. For someone who keeps bringing up the phrase "agree to disagree" you're not exactly doing it.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 10/21/19!)
Current Episode: How to Fix a Future - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 18!

User avatar
PFM18
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 3701
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by PFM18 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:57 pm

SaiyanGod117 wrote:
not a real black hole he survived. (So even you're wrong on that point) See how easy that is?
To show you don't know what your talking about yes, it's no use debating and I've given an essays worth already. People just got other things to do.
It is for situations like this that the phrase "take a chill pill" exists.

I would argue that it would be more unreasonable if Goku had just reached some arbitrary level of power and he suddenly was without the need to breath. How does that make any sense? As far as Goku having God Ki goes, that doesn't make him a God, they literally had an entire arc about that distinction and how a mortal using God Ki was insulting to actual Gods. (Or a certain maniac one) He isn't a God, he just has God Ki. He's a humanoid who's anatomy is almost identical to a human's. There is absolutely no reason why he shouldn't need to breath. How would that even work for him to arbitrarily be able to live without breathing once he reaches a certain strength level? "Now that he can destroy a Universe he doesn't need to breath anymore." What kind of crap is that?
Gaffer Tape wrote:Okay, well, I have seen Super all the way through (unfortunately) and have read this entire conversation, and I still can't fathom what you're talking about or what logical rationale you have behind tying the ability to punch someone really hard to whether or not they have to breathe. Obviously you're free to let whatever you want bother you, so I have no qualms if that bugs you, even if I don't agree. But you are acting extremely rude and condescending to absolutely every person who has challenged you in this thread. For someone who keeps bringing up the phrase "agree to disagree" you're not exactly doing it.
Oh wow, this is my first time seeing one of your posts since seeing your videos. Before I just figured you were some guy plugging your channel in your sig. I love your videos! They're great! Though it's a shame you seem to hate Super so much.

User avatar
SaiyanGod117
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:31 am

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:52 pm

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Okay, well, I have seen Super all the way through (unfortunately) and have read this entire conversation, and I still can't fathom what you're talking about or what logical rationale you have behind tying the ability to punch someone really hard to whether or not they have to breathe.
That's fine, I dont know how it's pretty simple, you people keep oversimplifying to punching hard and I'm done explaining myself. Maybe I should explain it a different way, but whats done is done, also I'm not the first person who's ever thought of this and I won't be the last lol.
Obviously you're free to let whatever you want bother you, so I have no qualms if that bugs you, even if I don't agree.
Look at the title of this thread "Things that grinds your gears" it's basically a thread to vent your frustration about something that irritates you in DB which is what I did. I stated my opinon/frustration which wasn't an attack on author, writers, fans, or content creators just a gripe I had with story and left. Some people didn't like my frustration, challenged it and wanted me to explain myself, which I did and they couldn't come to terms with my frustration and that was that. Additionally, excuse me, if this comes off as rude, but I don't care if you don't agree with my opinion or your qualms. Just as you could care less for my opinion.
But you are acting extremely rude and condescending to absolutely every person who has challenged you in this thread.
Well when one person comes at me passive aggressively and another keeps asking me to explain myself when I done it multiple times, they're asking for a little bit of an attitude.
For someone who keeps bringing up the phrase "agree to disagree" you're not exactly doing it.
Well it's kinda hard if he's still trying to continue the discussion, while simultaneously ignorantly sprouting incorrect information and making assumptions such as these "It's like you don't want to discuss further because you know this is an irrational issue to be so bugged about "all he just has to say alright I don't get what you're talking about let's agree to disagree."

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15835
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:33 pm

No one was passive aggressive.
aWell it's kinda hard if he's still trying to continue the discussion, while simultaneously ignorantly sprouting incorrect information and making assumptions such as these "It's like you don't want to discuss further because you know this is an irrational issue to be so bugged about "all he just has to say alright I don't get what you're talking about let's agree to disagree."
It's not hard. You don't have to respond. You can choose to respond or not and hopefully you respond in an adult manner. Lastly, DB isn't sophisticated. I may not have seen Super, but it doesn't take that much effort to say, "In episode such and such, Goku was nearly crushed by a black hole attack, which is evidence of..." Instead your brushed me off completely and said I have no credibility as though we were discussing something important like macroeconomic theory and I spouted some ignorant like "why don't they just print more money?" Your response was not commensurate with the 'transgression'.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5850
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:19 am

SaiyanGod117 wrote:Additionally, excuse me, if this comes off as rude, but I don't care if you don't agree with my opinion or your qualms. Just as you could care less for my opinion.
Yeah... see, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I don't know if this is one of those text-tone problems, or if you're just easily ruffled. But like ABED said, no one has been passive aggressive to you in this conversation. Not a single time. And as for what I said, that was me trying to assure you that your opinion is valid. That even if I don't agree with it, I defend your right to have it. And yet for some reason, you get huffy about even that. Out of everything I said in my post, that sentence was the most affirming to you and your case, and yet that's the one you seem to have taken the most issue with. So clearly there is some kind of disconnect at work here where people's neutral inquiries and statements are being interpreted by you as "passive aggressive" and insulting. You really shouldn't be so quick to assume everything is meant to put you on the defensive.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 10/21/19!)
Current Episode: How to Fix a Future - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 18!

User avatar
SaiyanGod117
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:31 am

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:02 am

ABED wrote:No one was passive aggressive.
Okay if you say so.
aWell it's kinda hard if he's still trying to continue the discussion, while simultaneously ignorantly sprouting incorrect information and making assumptions such as these "It's like you don't want to discuss further because you know this is an irrational issue to be so bugged about "all he just has to say alright I don't get what you're talking about let's agree to disagree."
Lastly, DB isn't sophisticated.
Ok, then why were you expecting such a sophisticated answer from me and constantly asking to explain myself. When I was basically tpying essays, was that not explaining myself? When I looked up the definition for explain a few pages back it was “make (an idea, situation, or problem) clear to someone by describing it in more detail or revealing relevant facts or ideas. and account for (an action or event) by giving a reason as excuse or justification. And it’s clearly still the same definition, while I understand you probably wanted a clearer picture to put it bluntly, if you didn’t get it, you just didn’t get it there was no need for this to have protected as long as it did. Non chantly disparaging me and my argument with comments such as silly and irrational is counterintuitive to what you’re trying to achieve.
It's not hard. You don't have to respond. You can choose to respond or not and hopefully you respond in an adult manner. Lastly, DB isn't sophisticated. I may not have seen Super, but it doesn't take that much effort to say, "In episode such and such, Goku was nearly crushed by a black hole attack, which is evidence of..." Instead your brushed me off completely and said I have no credibility as though we were discussing something important like macroeconomic theory and I spouted some ignorant like "why don't they just print more money?" Your response was not commensurate with the 'transgression'.
Well of course, if you’re going to make false accusations about me, as well as, unknowingly discredit me on stuff you know nothing about then by and large I’m going to defend myself. A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh answer stirs up anger, if you see me trying to agree to disagree on a heated debate and the next thing you do is compose a paragraph describing how silly or irrational opinion is, throwing false accusations, and then ignorantly discredit me on something you don’t even have the full context on. All things considered, of course I’m going to reply, so why you don’t take your own advice and do the same. While I will admit there was lot of stuff I could have done differently like explaining stuff and my conduct toward people, their were some things you could have done differently too.
Gaffer Tape wrote:
SaiyanGod117 wrote:Additionally, excuse me, if this comes off as rude, but I don't care if you don't agree with my opinion or your qualms. Just as you could care less for my opinion.
Yeah... see, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. I don't know if this is one of those text-tone problems, or if you're just easily ruffled. But like ABED said, no one has been passive aggressive to you in this conversation. Not a single time. And as for what I said, that was me trying to assure you that your opinion is valid. That even if I don't agree with it, I defend your right to have it. And yet for some reason, you get huffy about even that. Out of everything I said in my post, that sentence was the most affirming to you and your case, and yet that's the one you seem to have taken the most issue with. So clearly there is some kind of disconnect at work here where people's neutral inquiries and statements are being interpreted by you as "passive aggressive" and insulting. You really shouldn't be so quick to assume everything is meant to put you on the defensive.
Ok, my bad read too fast.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15835
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:57 am

Ok, then why were you expecting such a sophisticated answer
I was never looking for something sophisticated, just an explanation for why you take such a strong stance on the issue of whether Goku should have to breathe. The title of the thread is "Things that grind your gears". It's not about mild annoyances, but things that really bother you. I don't understand why this would bother anyone to that extent. That's the explanation I was searching for.

I get the idea that someone MIGHT roll their eyes that some capable of the feats Goku has shown would be vulnerable to having to breathe, but you have taken such a huge stance on this and I don't understand it. It seems like a hill you're willing to die on. That I don't get.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
SaiyanGod117
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:31 am

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:31 pm

ABED wrote:It seems like a hill you're willing to die on. That I don't get.
I can assure you it wasn't, you mistook my generosity to go to great lengths to explain my opinion to you, at your request for adamancy.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15835
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:07 am

SaiyanGod117 wrote:
ABED wrote:It seems like a hill you're willing to die on. That I don't get.
I can assure you it wasn't, you mistook my generosity to go to great lengths to explain my opinion to you, at your request for adamancy.
You're still way too bothered by this. This is after all a thread called "things that grind my gears", not "things that are a minor annoyance".

Generosity? SMDH. I should've stopped a long time ago when you became defensive, which was pretty much immediately. Have a happy holiday and I mean that genuinely.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7723
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:30 am

I agree with SaiyanGod117 in Goku not being capable of surviving in space and having space battles grinding my gears.

I also understand this could just be a Toriyama absurdity for humor, although evidently it isn't played up for laughs at any point.

And while it isn't only the increase in strength that makes it ridiculous, it is a large part.
I like to believe that ki makes anything possible and it's just a matter of creativity and power. Krillin freezing his ass off in the mountains, when looking for Dr. Gero already annoyed me, so Goku and Vegeta needing jackets to keep warm in the arctics undoubtedly does too. Why couldn't they just use that massive ki of theirs to warm them up or something?
Furthermore the difference between magic and ki isn't explained, so at this point I just believe that magic is simply a more advanced version of ki utilization and thus something Goku and co. might be capable of, if they try.

All those thoughts on ki might be headcanon, but at this point in the series, where the main characters apparently have enough power to rival Gods of Destruction, it is a bit weird they are still just limiting their battles to the one planet and battling in space only being something Beerus and Champa have done and that in the manga.

Another thing, that is just me repeating myself, but still every revisited character getting nice redesigns, but Goku and Vegeta still staying in the same old, I just don't get it and it's annoying they haven't talked about it at all.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15835
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:28 am

Perhaps the ability to fight in space is a power that comes with becoming an actual god, much like Kami/god's ability to see all of Earth from the Heavenly Realm is something that comes from being god and he loses it when he merges with Piccolo.

Now, I have to ask, is it really something that grinds your gears or is it a minor annoyance? I get your logic, but I'm trying to understand the extent that this bugs you.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Hulk10
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:51 pm

I dislike how people complain about power scaling in DBH when if you think hard enough there are perfectly good reasons for the outcomes of the fights. It shouldn't take much imagination or thought to come up with good explanations that don't involve so called 'bad power scaling'.
Hulk is strongest one there is. -Incredible Hulk

In the name of the mighty Legions of Predacons who preceded me I will never again bow to your charge! But I will heed your previous advice and face my true enemy AS A BEAST! -Predaking to Unicron controlled Megatron.

The arrogance of man is thinking that we are in control of our destiny. Let them fight. -Dr. Ishiro Serizawa to Admiral William Stenz.

User avatar
zDBZ
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:19 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by zDBZ » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:07 am

The "but they're not superheroes!" argument, or at least when it's used to deflect reasonable critique, excuse flimsy storytelling, or dismiss other fans' "what-if" fantasies, which shouldn't even be subject to such unless they're offered up for debate. The Dragon Ball Dissection series does a better job than I can of pointing out why this isn't a good excuse for some of the weaker plotting in later sagas; all I could add to its arguments is to point out that defending people - or the world - or the galaxy - or the universe - from wrong is a significant motivator in a good number of the sagas, and the primary (not only) motivation of the heroes in the later ones.

zarmack
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:22 am

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by zarmack » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:04 am

zDBZ wrote:The "but they're not superheroes!" argument, or at least when it's used to deflect reasonable critique, excuse flimsy storytelling, or dismiss other fans' "what-if" fantasies, which shouldn't even be subject to such unless they're offered up for debate. The Dragon Ball Dissection series does a better job than I can of pointing out why this isn't a good excuse for some of the weaker plotting in later sagas; all I could add to its arguments is to point out that defending people - or the world - or the galaxy - or the universe - from wrong is a significant motivator in a good number of the sagas, and the primary (not only) motivation of the heroes in the later ones.
The only 2 characters where the "but they're not superheroes!" argument actually works are Vegeta and to a lesser extent Goku.

Vegeta had zero care for the Earth nor had any interest in protecting anyone until the 2nd half of the Buu saga. Goku from day one is known to prioritize getting a good fight over most things when dealing with villains.

User avatar
zDBZ
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:19 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by zDBZ » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:06 am

zarmack wrote:
zDBZ wrote:The "but they're not superheroes!" argument, or at least when it's used to deflect reasonable critique, excuse flimsy storytelling, or dismiss other fans' "what-if" fantasies, which shouldn't even be subject to such unless they're offered up for debate. The Dragon Ball Dissection series does a better job than I can of pointing out why this isn't a good excuse for some of the weaker plotting in later sagas; all I could add to its arguments is to point out that defending people - or the world - or the galaxy - or the universe - from wrong is a significant motivator in a good number of the sagas, and the primary (not only) motivation of the heroes in the later ones.
The only 2 characters where the "but they're not superheroes!" argument actually works are Vegeta and to a lesser extent Goku.

Vegeta had zero care for the Earth nor had any interest in protecting anyone until the 2nd half of the Buu saga. Goku from day one is known to prioritize getting a good fight over most things when dealing with villains.
It's when applied to Goku that I find the argument most frustrating, frankly. Goku's unlettered, childlike nature and gleeful desire for combat aren't mutually exclusive with having a selfless and protective streak, and both elements were in play with his character throughout the original story. Goku's selfishness and carelessness for the safety of others is a trait that exacerbated over time, negatively affected his character, and is, up to a point, difficult to square with what came before.

Post Reply