Things that grind your gears

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Zephyr
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Zephyr » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:47 am

Kinda dumb that they named a Saiyan "Toma". Tomatoes are fruit, not vegetables.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:44 am

Zephyr wrote:Kinda dumb that they named a Saiyan "Toma". Tomatoes are fruit, not vegetables.
That tomato died just as horribly as the rest of his vegetables, and should be treated with just as much respect.

#FruitLivesMatter

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:26 am

zDBZ wrote:
zarmack wrote:
zDBZ wrote:The "but they're not superheroes!" argument, or at least when it's used to deflect reasonable critique, excuse flimsy storytelling, or dismiss other fans' "what-if" fantasies, which shouldn't even be subject to such unless they're offered up for debate. The Dragon Ball Dissection series does a better job than I can of pointing out why this isn't a good excuse for some of the weaker plotting in later sagas; all I could add to its arguments is to point out that defending people - or the world - or the galaxy - or the universe - from wrong is a significant motivator in a good number of the sagas, and the primary (not only) motivation of the heroes in the later ones.
The only 2 characters where the "but they're not superheroes!" argument actually works are Vegeta and to a lesser extent Goku.

Vegeta had zero care for the Earth nor had any interest in protecting anyone until the 2nd half of the Buu saga. Goku from day one is known to prioritize getting a good fight over most things when dealing with villains.
It's when applied to Goku that I find the argument most frustrating, frankly. Goku's unlettered, childlike nature and gleeful desire for combat aren't mutually exclusive with having a selfless and protective streak, and both elements were in play with his character throughout the original story. Goku's selfishness and carelessness for the safety of others is a trait that exacerbated over time, negatively affected his character, and is, up to a point, difficult to square with what came before.
They aren't mutually exclusive, but saving people isn't his primary drive. He'll save a child from a burning building when it's right in front of him, but he doesn't go around looking for fires to put out.

When you say saving the world is A significant motivator, no one disagrees. No one is saying they are never out to save the world, just that it's not their PRIMARY motivation. The characters are very concrete bound. If there's a very active threat, they'll try to stop it, but when it's not staring them in the face, they are more apt to prepare to fight it instead of taking more active measures to prevent to threat from arising in the first place. That's not flimsy storytelling because that's who the characters are and always were.
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MasenkoHA
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:40 am

^

Case in point

Goku not actively giving a shit about the Red Ribbon Army until he needed all the Dragon Balls to revive Bora

Goku requesting Kurilin to spare Vegeta not because of some super hero code but because he wanted a rematch with a genocidal maniac

Goku letting Freeza power up to 100 percent instead of just stopping the monster who killed his best friend and wiped out entire races including his own

The Z warriors (more so Goku and Vegeta) deciding to train for the cyborgs instead of trying to prevent them from even waking up to have a chance to destroy the works

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Forte224 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:44 am

Yeah, if they were super heroes, Bulma would be super busy making a lot more Great Saiyaman suits. The point here is, we know for a fact that the Dragon Ball Earth is filled with horrible people doing horrible things. Our characters could easily put a stop to these crimes, but do they? No, they just let them happen. They're the opposite of a Spider-Man, who feels that having this type of power is a responsibility to save people from any crime, big or "small".

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Zephyr » Sun Dec 02, 2018 8:47 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Zephyr wrote:Kinda dumb that they named a Saiyan "Toma". Tomatoes are fruit, not vegetables.
That tomato died just as horribly as the rest of his vegetables, and should be treated with just as much respect.

#FruitLivesMatter
He can have my respect as well as my bewilderment!

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Hulk10
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:04 pm

It annoys me when people claim that Toriyama put a multiplier to SSJ4 when it was a video game that did that and claims that the god forms are 'obviously' above multipliers.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Shaddy » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:42 pm

I mean, "multipliers" in general are a terrible detail for the series to focus on in any sense other than the vague "it makes them stronger", but nobody should think Toriyama said anything in particular about Super Saiyan 4 at all since he didn't even make the form.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by zDBZ » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:33 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:^

Case in point

Goku not actively giving a shit about the Red Ribbon Army until he needed all the Dragon Balls to revive Bora

Goku requesting Kurilin to spare Vegeta not because of some super hero code but because he wanted a rematch with a genocidal maniac

Goku letting Freeza power up to 100 percent instead of just stopping the monster who killed his best friend and wiped out entire races including his own

The Z warriors (more so Goku and Vegeta) deciding to train for the cyborgs instead of trying to prevent them from even waking up to have a chance to destroy the works
I can only refer to the DBD video I mentioned earlier in response to this - Goku's not being a superhero does not mean that these all make sense for his character - the last one is highly questionable, for Goku as well as for the rest of the cast.

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MasenkoHA
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:53 pm

zDBZ wrote:- Goku's not being a superhero does not mean that these all make sense for his character - the last one is highly questionable, for Goku as well as for the rest of the cast.
Goku is a guy who constantly wants to find stronger and stronger opponents to test his own strength and improve. himself. How do all those example not make sense for his character?

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Champa The Destroyer » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:39 am

As much as I love Ultra Instinct itself, I really don't like the fact that Goku surpassing Beerus was handled the way it was.

First, Goku and Vegeta both got many times stronger just in the span of 48 minutes of the TOP, just to make it possible for Beerus to be surpassed, I guess. Second, since (thankfully) Ultra Instinct isn't possible for Goku at the moment, he just surpassed Beerus for a while and then went back down to being an ant compared to him. Considering Beerus was the benchmark for the entire series, imo the moment of Goku surpassing him should have been permanent, or at least last for an extended period of time.

Third, at the rate of growth that Goku and Vegeta went through in the TOP, then by the time they do catch up to Beerus, they'll get so much stronger so fast that Beerus will quickly become irrelevant. Imo the best thing they could do with his character is use his character development in the TOP and start training again, becoming more of a pseudo rival to Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:06 am

zDBZ wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:^

Case in point

Goku not actively giving a shit about the Red Ribbon Army until he needed all the Dragon Balls to revive Bora

Goku requesting Kurilin to spare Vegeta not because of some super hero code but because he wanted a rematch with a genocidal maniac

Goku letting Freeza power up to 100 percent instead of just stopping the monster who killed his best friend and wiped out entire races including his own

The Z warriors (more so Goku and Vegeta) deciding to train for the cyborgs instead of trying to prevent them from even waking up to have a chance to destroy the works
I can only refer to the DBD video I mentioned earlier in response to this - Goku's not being a superhero does not mean that these all make sense for his character - the last one is highly questionable, for Goku as well as for the rest of the cast.
How does it not make sense for their characters?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Tavarano » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:46 am

ABED wrote:
zDBZ wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:^

Case in point

Goku not actively giving a shit about the Red Ribbon Army until he needed all the Dragon Balls to revive Bora

Goku requesting Kurilin to spare Vegeta not because of some super hero code but because he wanted a rematch with a genocidal maniac

Goku letting Freeza power up to 100 percent instead of just stopping the monster who killed his best friend and wiped out entire races including his own

The Z warriors (more so Goku and Vegeta) deciding to train for the cyborgs instead of trying to prevent them from even waking up to have a chance to destroy the works
I can only refer to the DBD video I mentioned earlier in response to this - Goku's not being a superhero does not mean that these all make sense for his character - the last one is highly questionable, for Goku as well as for the rest of the cast.
How does it not make sense for their characters?
It's like they didn't have self-preservation instinct, they know what happened when Nappa and Vegeta arrived the last time so basic logic dictates that they would not want to go through the same thing again. I assume that their attitude has been impacted by them all learning that death is quite meaningless, it becomes more obvious in Buu arc where death is a casual thing.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:25 am

Shaddy wrote:I mean, "multipliers" in general are a terrible detail for the series to focus on in any sense other than the vague "it makes them stronger", but nobody should think Toriyama said anything in particular about Super Saiyan 4 at all since he didn't even make the form.
That's what I said to the person who made that claim.
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In the name of the mighty Legions of Predacons who preceded me I will never again bow to your charge! But I will heed your previous advice and face my true enemy AS A BEAST! -Predaking to Unicron controlled Megatron.

The arrogance of man is thinking that we are in control of our destiny. Let them fight. -Dr. Ishiro Serizawa to Admiral William Stenz.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:25 am

Tavarano wrote:
ABED wrote:
zDBZ wrote: I can only refer to the DBD video I mentioned earlier in response to this - Goku's not being a superhero does not mean that these all make sense for his character - the last one is highly questionable, for Goku as well as for the rest of the cast.
How does it not make sense for their characters?
It's like they didn't have self-preservation instinct, they know what happened when Nappa and Vegeta arrived the last time so basic logic dictates that they would not want to go through the same thing again. I assume that their attitude has been impacted by them all learning that death is quite meaningless, it becomes more obvious in Buu arc where death is a casual thing.
It's not they don't have an instinct for self preservation, it's that they love combat. That's always been the case. It has nothing to do with death being meaningless and everything to do with their goal - to get stronger and fight strong opponents that challenge them. I don't see how that goes against their characterization. This isn't new. They experienced world ending stakes prior to the Saiyans.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by zDBZ » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:14 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
zDBZ wrote:- Goku's not being a superhero does not mean that these all make sense for his character - the last one is highly questionable, for Goku as well as for the rest of the cast.
Goku is a guy who constantly wants to find stronger and stronger opponents to test his own strength and improve. himself. How do all those example not make sense for his character?
ABED wrote:How does it not make sense for their characters?
At this point, I might as well source the thing I've been referring to this whole time.

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MasenkoHA
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:41 pm

zDBZ wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:
zDBZ wrote:- Goku's not being a superhero does not mean that these all make sense for his character - the last one is highly questionable, for Goku as well as for the rest of the cast.
Goku is a guy who constantly wants to find stronger and stronger opponents to test his own strength and improve. himself. How do all those example not make sense for his character?
ABED wrote:How does it not make sense for their characters?
At this point, I might as well source the thing I've been referring to this whole time.

Yeah his argument hinges on Goku and friends are good people who do what’s right so therefore they’re not capable of short sightedness or hubris. Again Goku is a guy who will spare a genocidal psychopath who was an accessory in the death of friends for a rematch or allowed a genocidial tyrant who killed his best friend to power up to 100 percent at full power to have a proper fight. And Goku’s motivation has ALWAYS been to test his strength by seeking stronger opponents. Nothing about wanting to fight these Cyborgs it out of character for Goku

He also use Tenshinhan not wanting to use the dragon balls to stop Piccolo but then being like okay yes to prove his point. But all this shows is the Z fighters are suspectibe to being short sighted until the situation forces them to seeing how bad things really are.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by mahakaishin1991 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:14 pm

- lack of goten doing anything
- the whole 'boxing' thing going on in super
- the powerscaling inflation caused by the kaioken's reintroduction as cool as it is to have it back.
- the fact the manga isnt weekly (sigh)

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ABED
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:22 pm

I don't see them as shortsighted. They know the consequences of their actions (okay, maybe not Vegeta), but their primary goal isn't saving the world.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:37 pm

ABED wrote:I don't see them as shortsighted. They know the consequences of their actions (okay, maybe not Vegeta), but their primary goal isn't saving the world.
In my opinion most of the Z Fighters are less problematic for law enforcement because they focus on the bigger threats and not the regular crooks that the police deal with.
Hulk is strongest one there is. -Incredible Hulk

In the name of the mighty Legions of Predacons who preceded me I will never again bow to your charge! But I will heed your previous advice and face my true enemy AS A BEAST! -Predaking to Unicron controlled Megatron.

The arrogance of man is thinking that we are in control of our destiny. Let them fight. -Dr. Ishiro Serizawa to Admiral William Stenz.

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