Things that grind your gears

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Jesta'
Newbie
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:03 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Jesta' » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:49 pm

The fact we don't have a uniform 4:3 Kenji Yamamoto Dragon Soul Kai. It's possible to make a fan version with Funi's new 30th set but I doubt anyone would do the color grading. Also, there aren't enough Kenji Yamamoto tracks, maybe someone can create Kai style covers based on tracks from other movies but I doubt anyone would actually get that far.

User avatar
Soppa Saia People
I Live Here
Posts: 2672
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:26 pm
Location: oak park heights
Contact:

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Soppa Saia People » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:57 pm

Metalwario64 wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:36 pm
People who still in this day and age say "All anime dubs are inferior to the Japanese versions, but DBZ is the sole exception because Goku sounds like my granny in the Japanese version, so the whole entire product is therefore vastly inferior to the [FUNimation] dub."
it's just so annoying that it's really only this series that people STILL champion a awfully inaccurate, low budget, and poorly handled dub from the 90s. like look at how most dubs from that period are treated, hell look at how the ocean dub is treated, but the funi dub is looked at as the better way to watch the series ? i get why when you look at how huge dragon ball was during its run + all the branding and stuff, and i think with younger people who didn't grow up with the funimation dub becoming more prominent on the internet, the general sentiment that the funimation dub is THE version of the show has gone away a lot, but still, it's really obnoxious.
nonbinary, they/them

User avatar
Metalwario64
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6074
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:02 am
Location: Namek

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Metalwario64 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:27 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:57 pm
But the whole “We love Linda Young’s Freeza” is pretty revisionist. Nobody liked Young’s Freeza back in the day. Obviously fans of the Japanese version hated it because it was wrong but Toonami fans pretty much thought Freeza was an androgynous effeminate weirdo. There’s a reason Cell was far more popular with the Toonami fandom.

It was only when Kai gave Freeza a new voice did Young suddenly have all these fans.
I didn't mean to imply everyone who prefers the dub loves Young. But from what I see with the hardcore FUNimation Z dub fanboys they always seem to defend her, and even back in the day people would talk about how the voice made Freeza "much creepier".

I imagine those are mostly the same folks who say the Japanese version is terrible because of "granny Goku". My point isn't that it's not okay to like Young and dislike Nozawa (as crazy as I find that sentiment), but the lack of open-mindedness and clear uninformed opinions that bothers me. If those people watched more of Dragon Ball in Japanese beyond a clip or two, I think a lot of them would realize that Nozawa is a very talented actress. Plus, criticizing the Japanese version because of "old lady Goku", but preferring the dub despite "old granny Freeza" seems hypocritical to me.
"Kenshi is sitting down right now drawing his mutated spaghetti monsters thinking he's the shit..."--Neptune Kai
"90% of you here don't even know what you're talking about (there are a few that do). But the things you say about these releases are nonsense and just plain dumb. Like you Metalwario64"--final_flash

User avatar
Hulk10
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1136
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:58 pm

People always have to have opinions, informed or not. And they don't always respect opposing opinions........... That was one of things I really didn't like about the wikia.............
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
I Live Here
Posts: 2217
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:41 pm

Metalwario64 wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:27 pm
Plus, criticizing the Japanese version because of "old lady Goku", but preferring the dub despite "old granny Freeza" seems hypocritical to me.

I mean to be fair if one were to look at Freeza and one were to look at Goku, Freeza would be far more acceptable to have an old lady voice based purely on looking like a genderless alien lizard thing. So I can, on some level, understand why someone would be okay with Granny “smokes 12 packs a day” Freeza and be put off by “Old Lady” Goku.

The key difference to me is the execution. Masako Nozawa doesn’t voice Goku like an old woman she voices Goku like a young boy in an adult male body. Which could be off-putting I suppose but to call her Granny Goku feels like a disingenuous argument and I have a hard time buying anyone making this comment without a hint irony actually watched any bit of Japanese Goku and based this argument off the knowledge that Nozawa is an older woman rather than judging the performance that she gives.


On the Linda Young sound of things the problem comes when you realize what Ocean/Funimation envisioned from Freeza and who Freeza as a character actually is does not work at all. For some reason Ocean and Funimation decided that Freeza should sound effeminate and raspy which I can only assume was based on nothing but looking at a single photo of Freeza’s first form and being told he was an alien bad guy. The voice and the constant jokes (especially in season 3) seems incredibly at ends with the space tyrant that runs a vast intergalactic empire. It would be like if a foreign dub of Star Wars decided Darth Vader should sound like a text to speech AI because “its kind of a robot thing I guess”

Kataphrut
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1433
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:12 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:55 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:41 pm
Metalwario64 wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:27 pm
Plus, criticizing the Japanese version because of "old lady Goku", but preferring the dub despite "old granny Freeza" seems hypocritical to me.

I mean to be fair if one were to look at Freeza and one were to look at Goku, Freeza would be far more acceptable to have an old lady voice based purely on looking like a genderless alien lizard thing. So I can, on some level, understand why someone would be okay with Granny “smokes 12 packs a day” Freeza and be put off by “Old Lady” Goku.

The key difference to me is the execution. Masako Nozawa doesn’t voice Goku like an old woman she voices Goku like a young boy in an adult male body. Which could be off-putting I suppose but to call her Granny Goku feels like a disingenuous argument and I have a hard time buying anyone making this comment without a hint irony actually watched any bit of Japanese Goku and based this argument off the knowledge that Nozawa is an older woman rather than judging the performance that she gives.


On the Linda Young sound of things the problem comes when you realize what Ocean/Funimation envisioned from Freeza and who Freeza as a character actually is does not work at all. For some reason Ocean and Funimation decided that Freeza should sound effeminate and raspy which I can only assume was based on nothing but looking at a single photo of Freeza’s first form and being told he was an alien bad guy. The voice and the constant jokes (especially in season 3) seems incredibly at ends with the space tyrant that runs a vast intergalactic empire. It would be like if a foreign dub of Star Wars decided Darth Vader should sound like a text to speech AI because “its kind of a robot thing I guess”
And then they went and did that with Magetta in the Super dub...

As for the main point, nostalgia is a hell of a thing. I bet there were a lot of people whose first exposure to Chris Ayres' Freeza was watching Res F or Broly in cinemas. And you still get people asking when we're getting the Bruce Faulconer music pack for FighterZ. I think Super's dub being delayed did a lot for getting people to come around to Dragon Ball in Japanese. But then again, the people who watched Super subbed were probably at least a little more into it than the ones who watched DBZ on Cheez TV in the 90s and then didn't pay any attention to it until they say a trailer for Resurrection F and went "awesome bruh".

User avatar
SHINOBI-03
I Live Here
Posts: 2595
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:47 am
Location: United Arab Emirates, Dubai
Contact:

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SHINOBI-03 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:35 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:41 pm
The key difference to me is the execution. Masako Nozawa doesn’t voice Goku like an old woman she voices Goku like a young boy in an adult male body. Which could be off-putting I suppose but to call her Granny Goku feels like a disingenuous argument and I have a hard time buying anyone making this comment without a hint irony actually watched any bit of Japanese Goku and based this argument off the knowledge that Nozawa is an older woman rather than judging the performance that she gives.
There is a difference in her performance voicing Goku or an old character. Listen to her performance as Medama Oyajii/Daddy Eyeball in GeGeGe no Kitarou who is meant to be an old character and you'll see it's not the same as Goku's youthful voice.
My Dragon Ball Story (500th post)
My Anime List
My Manga List
Big Momma wrote:This is Daizex. There's gonna be complaints and groaning no matter what. ;)
Anime Insider magazine wrote:If police officers in the future dress like prostitutes, then what do prostitutes in the future wear?

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17026
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:20 pm

Placing too much importance on canon. Say something is thrown out of "canon" - who cares? It still exists. You can still watch it whether those in charge of such things want to take those events into consideration when creating other stories. It's a big reason why terms like headcanon (something else that grinds my gears) bug me. It doesn't have to be canon to matter.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Hulk10
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1136
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:01 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:20 pm
Placing too much importance on canon. Say something is thrown out of "canon" - who cares? It still exists. You can still watch it whether those in charge of such things want to take those events into consideration when creating other stories. It's a big reason why terms like headcanon (something else that grinds my gears) bug me. It doesn't have to be canon to matter.
good points and yeah I agree.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

User avatar
MasenkoHA
I Live Here
Posts: 2217
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:18 pm

ABED wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:20 pm
Placing too much importance on canon. Say something is thrown out of "canon" - who cares? It still exists. You can still watch it whether those in charge of such things want to take those events into consideration when creating other stories. It's a big reason why terms like headcanon (something else that grinds my gears) bug me. It doesn't have to be canon to matter.
I agree of course. I also want to add canon and “what counts” is so fluid that it’s really not worth the effort of giving a damn.

Like Battle of Gods and Resurrection F were “canon” but now they’re not because Super retelling those movies as story arcs overrides them

Bardock’s 1st tv special was considered “canon” until Dragon Ball Minus and then Super Broly basically solidified that tv special no longer “counts”

Return my Gohan! can not in any way shape or form take place in the main story but then the Garlic Jr arc said it happened. Also Z movie 3 which is even more removed from continuity introduces Hiya Dragon who comes back in the anime and the audience familiarity with him is based on a movie that couldn’t have happened.

And of course Kai which removes as much anime exclusive content as it can half-ass try but still keeps stuff like Bardock’s psychic visions, Goku being sent to conquer a weak planet instead of being Kal-El’d by Bardock, and hell for Freeza being less terrifying. All of which is later contradicted by Super.

What I’m saying is it’s no way worth the effort of dismissing stuff “that isn’t canon or no longer canon” and just like what you enjoy on its own merits and decide for yourself if you like something.

User avatar
SuperSaiyaManZ94
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1467
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:01 pm
Location: Alabama, USA

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:51 pm

As i have likely noted elsewhere previously that some fans are so blind because of nostalgia and the like to the fact that the in house DBZ dub is an awful, embarrassing and highly inaccurate interpretation/adaptation of the series from just over twenty years ago. I mean yeah, i get it's what you watched on Toonami growing up back in the day though it seems a significant chunk of the fan base here can't be convinced to see the dub for what it really is. That being something done in a time when FUNimation was still a long way from being the dubbing powerhouse they are now and have been for nearly all of the last decade, and when many of the "reversioning" things done such as over the top script punch ups and music replacement was the standard for quite a few of the dubbing companies which are practices very few still adhere to these days. It's just so annoying to me that so many of these fans just can't reconcile the fact that the Z dub is something so woefully inferior in pretty much all aspects compared to everything from Kai onward.

It just blows my mind how some of these people still cling onto the dub (1999-2003 original version or 2007 partial re dub) and think it is legitimately good when in reality it's anything but.

User avatar
Hulk10
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1136
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:04 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:18 pm
ABED wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:20 pm
Placing too much importance on canon. Say something is thrown out of "canon" - who cares? It still exists. You can still watch it whether those in charge of such things want to take those events into consideration when creating other stories. It's a big reason why terms like headcanon (something else that grinds my gears) bug me. It doesn't have to be canon to matter.
I agree of course. I also want to add canon and “what counts” is so fluid that it’s really not worth the effort of giving a damn.

Like Battle of Gods and Resurrection F were “canon” but now they’re not because Super retelling those movies as story arcs overrides them

Bardock’s 1st tv special was considered “canon” until Dragon Ball Minus and then Super Broly basically solidified that tv special no longer “counts”

Return my Gohan! can not in any way shape or form take place in the main story but then the Garlic Jr arc said it happened. Also Z movie 3 which is even more removed from continuity introduces Hiya Dragon who comes back in the anime and the audience familiarity with him is based on a movie that couldn’t have happened.

And of course Kai which removes as much anime exclusive content as it can half-ass try but still keeps stuff like Bardock’s psychic visions, Goku being sent to conquer a weak planet instead of being Kal-El’d by Bardock, and hell for Freeza being less terrifying. All of which is later contradicted by Super.

What I’m saying is it’s no way worth the effort of dismissing stuff “that isn’t canon or no longer canon” and just like what you enjoy on its own merits and decide for yourself if you like something.
You are so right. The whole 'canon' debate is stupid honestly it doesn't matter. Like what you like, don't like what you don't like but don't put others down for their ideas.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

User avatar
funrush
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:54 pm
Location: United States

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by funrush » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:02 pm

That DBZ isn't on any of the regular streaming services here in the U.S. It's on Funimation but I'm not getting that for one show.

The way Kai was treated in general. Inconsistent score, the redrawings look so soft they might as well not even be HD aside from the Ginyu-Freeza 35mm episodes. Buu Kai has 2 versions for some reason, and one version has more filler, and that was chosen to be the international version unfortunately. And it's got a weird green tint for no reason. And the sound effects are muffled in the Funi dub etc.

DBS's animation. When it comes back they should make it a seasonal show instead of long-running so the animation can get the polish it deserves.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17026
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:31 am

Whenever I hear or read someone claim the changes made by the dub make sense on the grounds that if you really wanted a faithful dub, why not just watch the original. The same argument is used for the change to the score.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
MetaMoss
Regular
Posts: 549
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:14 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by MetaMoss » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:27 pm

funrush wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:02 pm
That DBZ isn't on any of the regular streaming services here in the U.S. It's on Funimation but I'm not getting that for one show.
What makes it even weirder is that Dragon Ball and GT are on Hulu.
Do me a favor and just pretend there's something cool or witty or profound down here.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 17026
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:08 pm

You can always get their streaming service for a month or two to watch just DBZ. It's $6 per month.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

Post Reply