Things that grind your gears

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Zestanor
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Zestanor » Fri May 15, 2020 11:59 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:04 pm
Speaking of Son-kun, I'm guessing -kun is suffix used to signify a friendly manner among peers, whereas -san is a little more formal. What is the signficance of Piccolo not using -kun when calling Goku "Son"? And is there any significance to him continuing to not use a suffix even after they become allies?
Kun is for subordinates in formal situations, but in common speech it’s used among young men, coming from, I guess, the time when boys greatly idolized the honor of joining a company and being called ~kun by their superiors. It was cool so it stuck among young men.

Bulma called Goku Son-kun at first because she resisted getting too friendly with him. It was the proper way to both assert distance (calling him his family name) and social and age superiority (using ~kun). She continued to call him this out of habit, even after they became good friends.

Piccolo calling Goku Son-san is like the respectible samurai thing to do. He beat him fair and square so he respects him. Calling Goku “Son-kun” would frankly be disrespectful and mocking for Piccolo. Since there is no relationship of subordination, it would make Piccolo sound very immature, certainly not like a martial artist, and it would be projecting a similar level of maturity onto Goku.

From what I remember Piccolo usually uses Son-san in polite company (think Samurai mode), but he drops the ~san in particularly macho situations (think WWE mode). There’s a mix of these in DB, and though Piccolo is antisocial, he understands social norms quite well.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by MyVisionity » Sat May 16, 2020 12:56 am

Zestanor wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 11:59 pm
Kun is for subordinates in formal situations, but in common speech it’s used among young men, coming from, I guess, the time when boys greatly idolized the honor of joining a company and being called ~kun by their superiors. It was cool so it stuck among young men.

Bulma called Goku Son-kun at first because she resisted getting too friendly with him. It was the proper way to both assert distance (calling him his family name) and social and age superiority (using ~kun). She continued to call him this out of habit, even after they became good friends.

Piccolo calling Goku Son-san is like the respectible samurai thing to do. He beat him fair and square so he respects him. Calling Goku “Son-kun” would frankly be disrespectful and mocking for Piccolo. Since there is no relationship of subordination, it would make Piccolo sound very immature, certainly not like a martial artist, and it would be projecting a similar level of maturity onto Goku.

From what I remember Piccolo usually uses Son-san in polite company (think Samurai mode), but he drops the ~san in particularly macho situations (think WWE mode). There’s a mix of these in DB, and though Piccolo is antisocial, he understands social norms quite well.
Piccolo never calls Goku "Son-san". He calls him "Son Goku", then "Son", and then sometimes "Goku".

And you don't have to be in a subordinate position to be called "-kun", nor a child. It's also used in a friendly or familiar context.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Zestanor » Sat May 16, 2020 3:08 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:56 am


Piccolo never calls Goku "Son-san". He calls him "Son Goku", then "Son", and then sometimes "Goku".

And you don't have to be in a subordinate position to be called "-kun", nor a child. It's also used in a friendly or familiar context.
Honestly it’s been a while since I watched DBZ so I don’t remember. Someone important called him Son-san a lot, but if it wasn’t Piccolo then I have no idea who.

I’m no scholar of Japanese so I will yield to you, but from what I understand, the original sense of -kun is as a suffix applied to subordinates in hierarchies, which, historically, only males would exist in. All the other senses in which it’s used are derived from that, which is why it sounds jarring, but not in a subversive way (like -chan for a grown man is), when applied to females. Using -kun in the derivative sense is metaphorical speech. You and your buddies are inserting yourselves into a theoretical military cohort or feudal court and calling each other that way. Or something. (This is probably all bullshit but I’m writing it anyway as though I know what I’m talking about).

Except, since it’s a fabrication, it has a youthful connotation to it, such that your sensibility in calling men your age -kun decreases with age. Close childhood friends could retain it, but new friends in middle age... not so much.

So, Piccolo wouldn’t call Goku Son-kun because they aren’t buddies and never have been.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by MyVisionity » Sat May 16, 2020 4:07 am

Zestanor wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 3:08 am
MyVisionity wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 12:56 am


Piccolo never calls Goku "Son-san". He calls him "Son Goku", then "Son", and then sometimes "Goku".

And you don't have to be in a subordinate position to be called "-kun", nor a child. It's also used in a friendly or familiar context.
Honestly it’s been a while since I watched DBZ so I don’t remember. Someone important called him Son-san a lot, but if it wasn’t Piccolo then I have no idea who.

I’m no scholar of Japanese so I will yield to you, but from what I understand, the original sense of -kun is as a suffix applied to subordinates in hierarchies, which, historically, only males would exist in. All the other senses in which it’s used are derived from that, which is why it sounds jarring, but not in a subversive way (like -chan for a grown man is), when applied to females. Using -kun in the derivative sense is metaphorical speech. You and your buddies are inserting yourselves into a theoretical military cohort or feudal court and calling each other that way. Or something. (This is probably all bullshit but I’m writing it anyway as though I know what I’m talking about).

Except, since it’s a fabrication, it has a youthful connotation to it, such that your sensibility in calling men your age -kun decreases with age. Close childhood friends could retain it, but new friends in middle age... not so much.

So, Piccolo wouldn’t call Goku Son-kun because they aren’t buddies and never have been.

Thanks for that explanation, it sounds accurate enough. I understood the professional usage, I was just saying that it didn't necessarily have to carry that context.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:48 pm

The freaking people that say "It takes seven episodes to power up in DBZ". Like dawg, have you actually watched the show? :eh: That's not even close to how many episodes it takes for a character to power up, in fact, it doesn't even take an entire episode. It takes like 10 minutes max. This joke ain't funny, bro.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:20 pm

Dragon Ball Gus wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:48 pm
The freaking people that say "It takes seven episodes to power up in DBZ". Like dawg, have you actually watched the show? :eh: That's not even close to how many episodes it takes for a character to power up, in fact, it doesn't even take an entire episode. It takes like 10 minutes max. This joke ain't funny, bro.
It was only funny once back in the early 2000s, and not :lol: kind of funny, rather a simple :roll: kind of funny.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by precita » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:18 pm

Most fights in DBZ don't even go on that many episodes with with the obvious exception of Goku Vs. Freeza.

If you rewatch the series most fights are done in an episode or two and the ones that go on multiple episodes at least have different characters fighting (the human cast vs. Nappa for example), or Goku and then the remaining earthlings against Vegeta. The fights against Dodoria, Zarbon and most of the Ginyu Force were also either only 1 episodes or just 2-3 at most.

You watch the fights of the Androids or Cell's earlier forms, again they're about an episode or two apiece.

Every individual fight in the Boo arc is short too, with only Boo against Gotenks/Gohan/Vegito and then the final Kid Boo fight going on a few eps but again there's changes and differences happening in all of them.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by kemuri07 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:48 am

Dragon Ball Gus wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:48 pm
The freaking people that say "It takes seven episodes to power up in DBZ". Like dawg, have you actually watched the show? :eh: That's not even close to how many episodes it takes for a character to power up, in fact, it doesn't even take an entire episode. It takes like 10 minutes max. This joke ain't funny, bro.
That's always kind of annoyed me too. But it's a joke that's been overly done, that it's negatively changed people's perception of the show.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by precita » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:55 am

As I said, it's mainly casual fans mostly remembering how long Goku/Freeza was. It's the same reason people say fights last "20-30 episodes" when in reality only Freeza on Namek was comparably to that and every other fight in the series never goes above a handful of episodes.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Psajdak » Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:11 pm

To be honest, I kind of like that Goku vs Freeza fight was so long.

IMO, at this point it's just one of the things why that battle is to this day one one of the most iconic, and memorable showdowns in history of anime.

I can only imagine how it was for people in Japan who watched it when it originally was shown.

Btw, as much as I love first appearance of Trunks, as a villain, Freeza deserved better end from how he was treated in his appearances post Namek, and before he was recruited by Goku for ToP, although he did have his moments in RoF.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:30 pm

Psajdak wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:11 pm
As much as I love first appearance of Trunks, as a villain, Freeza deserved better end from how he was treated.
I think Freeza dying at the hands of Vegeta's son and King Vegeta's grandson is very fitting, and a good way to end Vegeta's arc with him.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by precita » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:40 pm

I think in the manga and in Kai it just happens too fast. Goku defeats Freeza on Namek after 30 episodes, then like 2 episodes later....Freeza is back! :lol:

DBZ having the 9 episode Garlic Jr. arc between the two at least gave some breathing room.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:47 pm

precita wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:40 pm
I think in the manga and in Kai it just happens too fast. Goku defeats Freeza on Namek after 30 episodes, then like 2 episodes later....Freeza is back! :lol:
If I remember correctly, in the manga he was back in the same chapter he died in. I think it was chapter 329.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by coltigore » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:04 pm

I had someone at high school once tell us that the jp version "is the wrong version bro, we're American so we watch it in English" That really bothered me. They also said they only like the dub because he grew up with it. Keep in mind our DBZ version would be Kai, when we were around 9 or 10. I got into it with the sub at 16 and apparently watch "the wrong version

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:52 pm

I don't like when Super is discussed as though it and the original anime/manga are all one series. As though Super were simply the next chapter of the Dragon Ball saga and not a revival series that began twenty years after the original had ended. "Remember when Dragon Ball used to be like this or that...?" or "I miss when Goku/Vegeta/the Earthlings were doing such and such..." "Nowadays..." ...Uh, what? Nowadays?? Like, what the hell is "nowadays"???

Are there really those who don't acknowledge that there is a two-decade gap between Super and the original? That the original had ended? That Toriyama isn't involved in the same manner he was previously? Is it really just all the same thing to some? All one big series?

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:26 am

MyVisionity wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:52 pm
I don't like when Super is discussed as though it and the original anime/manga are all one series. "Remember when Dragon Ball used to be like this or that...?" or "I miss when Goku/Vegeta/the Earthlings were doing such and such..." "Nowadays..." ...Uh, what? Nowadays?? Like, what the hell is "nowadays"???

Are there really those who don't acknowledge that there is a two-decade gap between Super and the original? That the original had ended? That Toriyama isn't involved in the same manner he was previously? Is it really just all the same thing to some? All one big series?
I do agree that they're two different products, but that doesn't change the fact they're both DB, so comparing them is inevitable.

Unfortunately yes. There are those who believe there are 0 differences between DB now and then.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by pepd » Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:33 am

Recently saw -for second time- someone claiming that Bardock Father of Gokū was canon to Toriyama's DB before DB:Minus and backing it up with a misinterpreted quote of Toriyama.

I mean, a lot of people misinform to spread their preferences/headcanon, but they usually do it by omitting and accommodating information, not strait up lying

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:44 am

pepd wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:33 am
Recently saw -for second time- someone claiming that Bardock Father of Gokū was canon to Toriyama's DB before DB:Minus and backing it up with a misinterpreted quote of Toriyama.
I don't know what quote was used, but that special was the only Bardock story we had, so it would be canon by default.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Grimlock » Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:10 am

As far as the manga is concerned, the TV Special must still be considered anyway. As it explains more or less how Bardock knew the exact day Freeza would attack. Then there's the Bardock's armor/design, which is from the TV Special. The only things that are seemingly supposed to be disregarded are the scenes about Bardock's ability to see the future and Goku being a newborn.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Kakkaroto735 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:14 am

I just hate it when people say that GT isn't canon even though canon doesn't really matter in Dragon ball. I hate when people say that Kai is censored despite it being just as violent except for a few toned down scenes. I hate it when fans harass voice actors and look for drama in a community surrounding a decades old show about super powered Japanese aliens fighting other aliens. I hate it when Dragon Ball fans say that Goku's a bad father( he is not a bad father he is merely an irresponsible parent because he lived in the woods his whole life hunting wolves) or saying that Goku is a complete idiot. He is merely naive and he does develop as a character but people just assume that DBZA Goku is a complete representation of the actual Goku instead of an exaggeration of the worst aspects of his character. I love DBZA but it honestly reinforces the worst parts of this fandom.

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