Non-thread-worthy discussions

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

Yalos
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:14 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Yalos » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:34 am

Should I feel bad for pirating the entire series? I did "support" Dragon Ball by buying merch and games, but watching it pirated was the only choice I had without spending money on DVD player and DVDs. And to be honest, Hebrew fansubbers do better job than Toei, Super wasn't even available on Crunchyroll in Israel

User avatar
The Monkey King
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 898
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:53 am

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by The Monkey King » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:59 am

To this day I still wonder who thought this was a good idea?

Image

"Yeah let's show off how cool and powerful Goku's new transformation is by having him almost die to a weak laser!"

I think it's one of if not the most pathetic Goku moment in all of Dragon Ball, I can't think of anything else that's this embarrassing.

I highly some Toei staff felt the same way I do as in DBS they went so far as to have Goku be completely powered down in base form before he was shot.

Image
garfield15 wrote:"Now Goku, we shall have our Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods Movie 14, now available on DVD and blu-ray!"
http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww11 ... wesome.gif

ruler9871
Regular
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ruler9871 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:11 pm

The Monkey King wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:59 am
To this day I still wonder who thought this was a good idea?

Image

"Yeah let's show off how cool and powerful Goku's new transformation is by having him almost die to a weak laser!"

I think it's one of if not the most pathetic Goku moment in all of Dragon Ball, I can't think of anything else that's this embarrassing.

I highly some Toei staff felt the same way I do as in DBS they went so far as to have Goku be completely powered down in base form before he was shot.

Image
I agree completely. What the hell was Toriyama thinking smh? It completely destroyed SSB's reputation in its debut. Its like if SSJ3 Goku gets put down by a common pistol in his 1st appearance, its just so stupid.

However, while was a good idea to have Goku power down into his base form before getting hit by the laser, the laser scene was still stupid in general. Because these characters are suppose to be experienced warriors/martial artists, above & beyond such minor and easy slip-ups like these.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

User avatar
Grimlock
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5212
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Conton City

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Grimlock » Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:46 pm

In the same movie it was said by Whis himself that no matter how strong you are, you can still be defeated if you let your guard down. Why people ignore or pretend that didn't hear his statement?

User avatar
Shaddy
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Shaddy » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:37 pm

Dragon Ball as a franchise does a really terrible job at communicating what a person with their guard up looks like when it relies on sometimes-invisible energy that can stop bullets at one point and not another, and the nature of transformation gives the impression of resonating ki like some sort of permanent shield. If Toriyama maybe at any point in the series' run actually explained how ki works that may have been avoided.
Mage of Blood yeets pizza wrote:Satanism is just Atheism wearing a funny hat
bjm knhhjnbguv cxkjmn bl,v wrote:Go yiff yourself

Dbzfan94
I Live Here
Posts: 4669
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:16 pm
Location: Mt. Paozu

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:43 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:46 pm
In the same movie it was said by Whis himself that no matter how strong you are, you can still be defeated if you let your guard down. Why people ignore or pretend that didn't hear his statement?
That’s not really an excuse. There were plenty of times where a weak attack just harmlessly bounced off character with their “guard down”

MyVisionity
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:51 pm
Location: US
Contact:

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:11 pm

Shaddy wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:37 pm
Dragon Ball as a franchise does a really terrible job at communicating what a person with their guard up looks like when it relies on sometimes-invisible energy that can stop bullets at one point and not another, and the nature of transformation gives the impression of resonating ki like some sort of permanent shield. If Toriyama maybe at any point in the series' run actually explained how ki works that may have been avoided.
It's a figurative, not a literal guard that a character maintains. I don't think it's ever been suggested that a Ki aura is anything but that, an aura of Ki. I never took it to be a shield of any kind, just an effect of the amount of Ki that the character is generating.

I don't think Toriyama should have to explain how Ki works. It should be self-explanatory.

User avatar
Shaddy
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Shaddy » Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:23 pm

Well it obviously isn't self-explanatory, because this fanbase is a mess in terms of figuring out how it does actually work. I mean, does being transformed increase your resilience or just how hard you can hit? To what degree does ki translate into physical force, because it obviously isn't the same as just whatever energy they use to do anything else, otherwise there would be no point in wearing weighted training gear. It'd be like wearing styrofoam.

I'm reasonably certain the reason it's never properly spelled out is because A. Toriyama doesn't think it through much and just goes with what would be cool and B. He probably knows that an explanation would be boring as shit.
Mage of Blood yeets pizza wrote:Satanism is just Atheism wearing a funny hat
bjm knhhjnbguv cxkjmn bl,v wrote:Go yiff yourself

User avatar
Dragon Ball Gus
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 956
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 4:51 pm
Location: Planet Sadla

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:09 pm

Does anyone think that the Japanese voice of the Saibaimen sound unbelievably cuuuuuute?
Caulifla best girl! :)

User avatar
SHINOBI-03
I Live Here
Posts: 2560
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 7:47 am
Location: United Arab Emirates, Dubai
Contact:

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by SHINOBI-03 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 3:49 am

With Super, Heroes and Fusions bringing new material and new forms and modes to everything and attracting a new generation of fans, it makes me wonder of those new fans are aware of the existence of AF and how it was a huge part of the fandom before the revival with Battle of Gods.
My Dragon Ball Story (500th post)
My Anime List
My Manga List
Big Momma wrote:This is Daizex. There's gonna be complaints and groaning no matter what. ;)
Anime Insider magazine wrote:If police officers in the future dress like prostitutes, then what do prostitutes in the future wear?

User avatar
JohnnyCashKami
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:16 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:40 pm

I love the art work of the Season Blu-ray sets but absolutely hate the PQ of it. Sigh. Great packaging, shit video quality. :(


At least it's getting an art book though exclusively sold with the 30th Anniversary release. :problem:

User avatar
Dragon Ball Ireland
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1526
Joined: Thu May 21, 2015 9:09 am
Location: Kildare, Ireland

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:01 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:40 pm
I love the art work of the Season Blu-ray sets but absolutely hate the PQ of it. Sigh. Great packaging, shit video quality. :(


At least it's getting an art book though exclusively sold with the 30th Anniversary release. :problem:
I love them too, especially when displayed alongside Manga UK's Blu-Rays and you have a nice consistent run of everything DBZ with slipcovers containing descriptive artwork.

PQ leaves a lot to be desired, but I can watch them at the very least.
Trying to pitch Rock The Dragon to Manga UK

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15240
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:20 pm

Shaddy wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:23 pm
Well it obviously isn't self-explanatory, because this fanbase is a mess in terms of figuring out how it does actually work. I mean, does being transformed increase your resilience or just how hard you can hit? To what degree does ki translate into physical force, because it obviously isn't the same as just whatever energy they use to do anything else, otherwise there would be no point in wearing weighted training gear. It'd be like wearing styrofoam.

I'm reasonably certain the reason it's never properly spelled out is because A. Toriyama doesn't think it through much and just goes with what would be cool and B. He probably knows that an explanation would be boring as shit.
He didn't create the concept. He took a ubiquitous concept and applied it to his story.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Shaddy
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Shaddy » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:56 pm

Okay, then he didn't think his application of it through very well. I mean, it's the same source as Naruto's chakra or Hunter X Hunter's Nen, right? Whatever your opinion on those (AKA Naruto gets a lot worse as it goes) they both make their use of it pretty clear and understandable.
Mage of Blood yeets pizza wrote:Satanism is just Atheism wearing a funny hat
bjm knhhjnbguv cxkjmn bl,v wrote:Go yiff yourself

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15240
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:01 pm

Why do a bunch of useless exposition about a concept everyone understands?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Shaddy
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Shaddy » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:05 pm

Because everyone doesn't understand it.

That's why it was brought up.
Mage of Blood yeets pizza wrote:Satanism is just Atheism wearing a funny hat
bjm knhhjnbguv cxkjmn bl,v wrote:Go yiff yourself

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15240
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:10 pm

Shaddy wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:05 pm
Because everyone doesn't understand it.

That's why it was brought up.
You're assuming that they explained it because people didn't understand it. It's more likely the writer didn't trust the audience. It's like explaining zombies. We get it, it's the living dead. No need to explain a concept that everyone knows and undestands. The only reason to do so is if you change the generally understood concept, otherwise it's useless exposition that mostly bad writers do because they don't trust the audience to get it.

What do we need explained about ki? What about it is so desperately in need of explaining that the audience can't get through context?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Shaddy
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Shaddy » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:29 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:10 pm
What do we need explained about ki? What about it is so desperately in need of explaining that the audience can't get through context?
Okay, lemme ask you this: what does focusing ki actually look or feel like, at least in the context of DB? The closest thing we ever get to an answer is Gohan teaching Videl flight, and his words amount to "y'know...do the thing then put it under your feet", like it's standing on top of a balloon or something. That doesn't say anything about the dudes flying through the sky shooting lasers and chucking buildings at each other, even though that's only possible through energy too.

How does Goku with his guard up via ki differ from Goku normally? "Because I said so" is the usual answer from the series. When Goku "gets stronger", what does that actually mean? What even is strength in this series? When everyone fights the same, what is the change that makes them able to win? The answer is usually "the amount of ki", but then how do things like the androids with supposedly infinite ki ever lose a fight? If blue is so strong and Goku has his guard down, why shouldn't a laser hurt him? Goku's knowledge of this stuff is rudimentary at the start of DB and can still stop bullets, but when Krillin has gone too long without fighting in Super and is still able to fly, has he just forgotten how to guard himself from the same thing?

The simple fact is there's inconsistencies with this stuff because Toriyama went "ya know, ki" and expected that to justify everything without seeing that he himself had altered the rules along the way. And because he writes to his strengths, and obviously, careful and consistent worldbuilding has never been one of those. And yes, it doesn't matter! Because the only things he and most people working on DB go into most fights thinking about is A. What would be cool and B. Who needs to win. Everything else is secondary including the mechanics the fights work under and the ways they're subverted or changed, and that's fine, because nobody cares about this dumb shit except nerds online like us, but that does not mean it's executed well or has no holes in how it's supposed to work.

And if you really think there aren't people who don't understand this stuff I would direct you to our very own in-universe discussion subforum where a good 30% of all threads are either about deconstructing existing uses of this power or trying to figure out potential hypothetical ones, and getting weirdly heated in the process.
Mage of Blood yeets pizza wrote:Satanism is just Atheism wearing a funny hat
bjm knhhjnbguv cxkjmn bl,v wrote:Go yiff yourself

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15240
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:44 pm

All of that is needless exposition. I don't need to know what it feels like, much like I don't need an explanation of how Peter's spidey-sense feels. We get through context and VERY minimal exposition that it warns him of imminent danger and where it's coming from.

Cyborgs don't have ki, hence why Goku and co. can't sense them.

None of what you are talking about is remotely necessary. It's boring worldbuilding and exposition that would stop the story dead in its tracks. The people on this forum debating about the minutia of how it all works isn't proof anything beyond nerdy obsession with fictional concepts, lore, and worldbuilding. Most people get it and go about their day.

No work of fantasy no matter how well thought out is bulletproof by its very nature. The only time it bothers me is egregious examples like a person with god like power being taken down by a pea shooter. He can destroy planets, but a gun can nearly destroy him. I get what the writer was going for given what Freeza also does in the same movie, but basic logic doesn't work.
Last edited by ABED on Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Shaddy
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:38 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Shaddy » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:52 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:44 pm
All of that is needless exposition. I don't need to know what it feels like, much like I don't need an explanation of how Peter's spidey-sense feels. We get through context and VERY minimal exposition that it warns him of imminent danger and where it's coming from.
And that's true. Did I say that Dragon Ball (or in this case Spider-Man) is made a much worse story because of this?
ABED wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:44 pm
None of what you are talking about is remotely necessary. It's boring worldbuilding and exposition that would stop the story dead in its tracks. The people on this forum debating about the minutia of how it all works isn't proof anything beyond nerdy obsession with fictional concepts, lore, and worldbuilding. Most people get it and go about their day.
The popularity of modern shonen manga following Dragon Ball's lead that don't have this same issue, and the amount of people constantly negatively comparing Dragon Ball itself to said manga for reasons such as this would disagree with you. It's not that objective. A lot more people appreciate different things like that than you might think, and this is coming from someone who really couldn't give less of a shit about power levels and ki mechanics. Doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that what it isn't all that great.
Mage of Blood yeets pizza wrote:Satanism is just Atheism wearing a funny hat
bjm knhhjnbguv cxkjmn bl,v wrote:Go yiff yourself

Post Reply