Non-thread-worthy discussions

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Soppa Saia People
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Soppa Saia People » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:18 pm

i'm pretty sure that's just his full name.
I have borderline personality disorder, if my posts ever come off as aggressive or word vomit-y to you, please let me know.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:14 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:51 pm What is Toyotaro's first name?
It's likely just a pen name, like how it used to be Toyble before he changed it.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:58 pm

Godo wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:33 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:05 am It concerns me how contentious the canon vs noncanon, sub vs dub, and manga vs anime are.......... The debate has turned nasty and a lot of people are being very disrespectful about other's opinions.
I don't know how long you have been visiting forums, but my experience is that the debate and also disrespectfulness is pretty much the same since the early 2000's. You'll only notice it if you are not part of the circlejerk. Unfortunately, anonymity brings out the nastiest sides of people.
Thankfully, this forum is very much on the light side, since it is well moderated and more strict (hence why it has survived during many years, contrary to the dozens of Dragonball forums I've visited in the past). You keep doing you and stay respectful. Sometimes you just can't win an argument.
Truth be told Godo. I haven't been to the forums for all that long. You can only win an argument when someone agrees with you or backs down and there are those that refuse to back down. I don't back down when it comes to things I believe. But I will accept facts. One thing I won't give an inch on is SSJ4 but I try to be civil and polite.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ZeroNeonix » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:28 pm

Why do things have to be canon for people to enjoy it? I like the idea of the Supreme Kai of Time being canon, but just because Heroes, Xenoverse, etc aren't canon doesn't mean none of that stuff matters.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:54 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:28 pm Why do things have to be canon for people to enjoy it? I like the idea of the Supreme Kai of Time being canon, but just because Heroes, Xenoverse, etc aren't canon doesn't mean none of that stuff matters.
That's a good question. And so it 'what is canon?'. To my eye it is whatever you see it as.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Witty User Name » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:37 pm

Hulk10 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:58 pm
Godo wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:33 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:05 am It concerns me how contentious the canon vs noncanon, sub vs dub, and manga vs anime are.......... The debate has turned nasty and a lot of people are being very disrespectful about other's opinions.
I don't know how long you have been visiting forums, but my experience is that the debate and also disrespectfulness is pretty much the same since the early 2000's. You'll only notice it if you are not part of the circlejerk. Unfortunately, anonymity brings out the nastiest sides of people.
Thankfully, this forum is very much on the light side, since it is well moderated and more strict (hence why it has survived during many years, contrary to the dozens of Dragonball forums I've visited in the past). You keep doing you and stay respectful. Sometimes you just can't win an argument.
Truth be told Godo. I haven't been to the forums for all that long. You can only win an argument when someone agrees with you or backs down and there are those that refuse to back down. I don't back down when it comes to things I believe. But I will accept facts. One thing I won't give an inch on is SSJ4 but I try to be civil and polite.
I agree with that. Only ''facts'' win me over, but sometimes I'm simply unwilling to change my mind in whatever topic due to 'force of habit'. As an adept of philosophical skepticism, I try however to overcome this and adjust my beliefs almost all the time.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ZeroNeonix » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:17 am

Hulk10 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:54 pm
ZeroNeonix wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:28 pm Why do things have to be canon for people to enjoy it? I like the idea of the Supreme Kai of Time being canon, but just because Heroes, Xenoverse, etc aren't canon doesn't mean none of that stuff matters.
That's a good question. And so it 'what is canon?'. To my eye it is whatever you see it as.
Whoever owns the property gets to declare what is canon. Canon is what is a part of the official storyline. But you can also have non-offical canon, like with those Star Wars books that were a part of the extended universe before Disney took over. Those may not be Disney canon, but they're part of a set that all built on the same universe. They are canon in respect to one another. That's what I call side-canon.

When it comes to Dragon Ball specifically, I consider the original manga to be canon, and everything else as filler or otherwise non-canon material. Basically anything written by Toriyama is canon. So the movies are generally non-canon, as is GT. The tricky part is when it comes to Super, where you have Toriyama's outline, which is canon, but two different versions of its presentation. Personally, I consider the canon as divided into two equally official, yet separate, canon storylines: TOEI canon and manga canon.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:58 am

ZeroNeonix wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:17 am
Hulk10 wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:54 pm
ZeroNeonix wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:28 pm Why do things have to be canon for people to enjoy it? I like the idea of the Supreme Kai of Time being canon, but just because Heroes, Xenoverse, etc aren't canon doesn't mean none of that stuff matters.
That's a good question. And so it 'what is canon?'. To my eye it is whatever you see it as.
Whoever owns the property gets to declare what is canon. Canon is what is a part of the official storyline. But you can also have non-offical canon, like with those Star Wars books that were a part of the extended universe before Disney took over. Those may not be Disney canon, but they're part of a set that all built on the same universe. They are canon in respect to one another. That's what I call side-canon.

When it comes to Dragon Ball specifically, I consider the original manga to be canon, and everything else as filler or otherwise non-canon material. Basically anything written by Toriyama is canon. So the movies are generally non-canon, as is GT. The tricky part is when it comes to Super, where you have Toriyama's outline, which is canon, but two different versions of its presentation. Personally, I consider the canon as divided into two equally official, yet separate, canon storylines: TOEI canon and manga canon.
I was referring to Dragon Ball. I know what canon is. I was referring to 'what is canon' in Dragon Ball and yes the original manga is the most canon.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:25 pm

Canon isn't important. Even though canon and continuity are more or less the same thing, there are several continuities. Hell, GT has its own continuity which includes DBZ filler.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Tylerman29 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:47 pm

Manga aside, I keep it simple by just saying:
Original Toei anime continuity (undeniable as this was clearly meant to be a cohesive complete story) : DB -> DBZ -> GT
Modern Toei continuity: DB( the general events)-> Kai -> Super -> Broly (unless it gets retold)

As far as the movies go, whichever ones can fit with minor inconsistencies (clearly movie 1 is canon to the original Toei continuity as well as coola if I'm not mistaken). The rest are unrelated side stories. BoG and RoF were overwritten by the anime.

This is how my mind organizes it. It just makes the most sense to me. I’m an anime only fan, so I just think of the manga as a separate continuity in a different medium that I don’t partake in.
DB, Z, and GT subbed are my "canon".
SSJ4 > Any transformation in Super.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Xeogran » Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:05 am

Tylerman29 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:47 pm Manga aside, I keep it simple by just saying:
Original Toei anime continuity (undeniable as this was clearly meant to be a cohesive complete story) : DB -> DBZ -> GT
Modern Toei continuity: DB( the general events)-> Kai -> Super -> Broly (unless it gets retold)

As far as the movies go, whichever ones can fit with minor inconsistencies (clearly movie 1 is canon to the original Toei continuity as well as coola if I'm not mistaken). The rest are unrelated side stories. BoG and RoF were overwritten by the anime.
Freeza saw fusion (Gotenks) in the anime, but he was surprised to see it in DBS Broly. I'd say the recent movies are still more canon than the anime retellings of them.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:59 am

Fretting over whether the movies or the TV retellings are canon misses the point. Unless something specific happens as a consequence of something that happened in one version of the story (i.e. the movie or the TV series), it doesn't matter.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:54 am

There's a lot of debate about Vegeta's duties as a father and how he handles them. People say he's a good dad, some say he's a terrible dad, some say he's a better dad than Goku (a phrase that I'm personally tired of), and some say he's worse than Goku. But, we're not here to talk about that. Today, I wanna start a discussion about how you think Vegeta would be like as a granddad. Say for example, Trunks (maybe even Future Trunks) has a kid with, let's say, Mai (I know people don't like that ship, but I'm just using it as an example). How do you guys think Vegeta would handle his duties as a grandfather? Do you think he'll handle them well? Would he have a good bond with his grandchildren? Let's get this discussion going!
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:25 am

Dragon Ball Gus wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:54 am There's a lot of debate about Vegeta's duties as a father and how he handles them. People say he's a good dad, some say he's a terrible dad, some say he's a better dad than Goku (a phrase that I'm personally tired of), and some say he's worse than Goku. But, we're not here to talk about that. Today, I wanna start a discussion about how you think Vegeta would be like as a granddad. Say for example, Trunks (maybe even Future Trunks) has a kid with, let's say, Mai (I know people don't like that ship, but I'm just using it as an example). How do you guys think Vegeta would handle his duties as a grandfather? Do you think he'll handle them well? Would he have a good bond with his grandchildren? Let's get this discussion going!
Grandfather's have very little in the way of duties. They get most of the fun of kids without nearly the responsibility. Given he has long since changed for the better, I think he would be a good grandfather. Maybe not super warm, but not cold and distant either.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Tylerman29 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:05 pm

Xeogran wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:05 am
Tylerman29 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:47 pm Manga aside, I keep it simple by just saying:
Original Toei anime continuity (undeniable as this was clearly meant to be a cohesive complete story) : DB -> DBZ -> GT
Modern Toei continuity: DB( the general events)-> Kai -> Super -> Broly (unless it gets retold)

As far as the movies go, whichever ones can fit with minor inconsistencies (clearly movie 1 is canon to the original Toei continuity as well as coola if I'm not mistaken). The rest are unrelated side stories. BoG and RoF were overwritten by the anime.
Freeza saw fusion (Gotenks) in the anime, but he was surprised to see it in DBS Broly. I'd say the recent movies are still more canon than the anime retellings of them.
True but like DBZ movie 1 is clearly canon to the DBZ anime but still has a couple minor inconsistencies. DB is never going to be 100% cohesive. But I’ll take 1 or 2 iffy things over things like characters that should be dead being alive or just complete nonsense like false super saiyan.
DB, Z, and GT subbed are my "canon".
SSJ4 > Any transformation in Super.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Grimlock » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:48 pm

Do you consider the lack of a mention to Tarble to be an "iffy" thing?
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:16 pm

Tylerman29 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:47 pm Manga aside, I keep it simple by just saying:
Original Toei anime continuity (undeniable as this was clearly meant to be a cohesive complete story) : DB -> DBZ -> GT
Modern Toei continuity: DB( the general events)-> Kai -> Super -> Broly (unless it gets retold)

As far as the movies go, whichever ones can fit with minor inconsistencies (clearly movie 1 is canon to the original Toei continuity as well as coola if I'm not mistaken). The rest are unrelated side stories. BoG and RoF were overwritten by the anime.

This is how my mind organizes it. It just makes the most sense to me. I’m an anime only fan, so I just think of the manga as a separate continuity in a different medium that I don’t partake in.

Kai keeps Freeza being in the anime version of hell and Bardock’s confrontation and end of planet Vegeta at the beginning of Kai is straight from tv special instead of the Minus inspired Super Broly retelling so Kai doesn’t exactly match up with Super anymore better than Z aside from the same composer for the Boo saga and Super.

Toei’s unofficial stance on continuity seems to be “*shrug* If Toriyama’s story later contradicts us oh well”

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:00 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:48 pm Do you consider the lack of a mention to Tarble to be an "iffy" thing?
IMO, Tarble is probably canon, but we likely won't see him again. He's a boring character without much to offer. I doubt Toriyama even remembers he exists.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Alruneia » Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:11 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:00 pmI doubt Toriyama even remembers he exists.
Honestly, to me Tarble seems like the exact kind of thing Toriyama would remember, precisely because he's as irrelevant as he is. I can't really defend this stance very strongly, it's just a feeling I get.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Grimlock » Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:12 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote: Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:00 pmIMO, Tarble is probably canon, but we likely won't see him again. He's a boring character without much to offer. I doubt Toriyama even remembers he exists.
If anything, I think Toriyama is the one remembering Tarble exists. He got mentioned in Movie 14 and in Movie 1, whereas he was forgotten in both Toei's and Toyotaro's continuities. Otherwise, if Toei/Toyotaro had remembered him, why wouldn't they include at least a mention in their own medium?
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