Non-thread-worthy discussions

[ZeroNeonix]

In his persue of revenge and killing Goku, Dr.Gero created a device that can generate "unlimited" energy for his androids to use. He unintentionally created a renewable source of energy that could change the world and solve the issues and polution caused by non-renewable sources.

That is an interesting point. And Dr. Gero didn't even get what he wanted anyway. Goku died of a virus, not from fighting his androids, so his invention went to complete waste.

[sskura]

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[Noah]

In his persue of revenge and killing Goku, Dr.Gero created a device that can generate "unlimited" energy for his androids to use. He unintentionally created a renewable source of energy that could change the world and solve the issues and polution caused by non-renewable sources.

That is an interesting point. And Dr. Gero didn't even get what he wanted anyway. Goku died of a virus, not from fighting his androids, so his invention went to complete waste.

Never understand much Gero's motivation to kill Goku.

I mean okay he destroyed the RR, but was it that army the sole purpose of Gero's life? What did he wanted to acomplish? I loved the fact that TFS made his motivation being based on his son being killed by Goku on his raid.

Anyway he is an interesting character and I would love an OVA about him, but too bad Toei doesn't think that way.

[dbgtFO]

Vegeta's first fight vs Goku Black in the anime is so annoying. He starts out in Blue pummeling away at base form Black, only for Black to smile as he apparently isn't taking damage at all, startling Vegeta. Black then lands a surprise blow on Vegeta from the front and then goes SS Rose, which suggests, if he can perform that well in base, his transformed state must be way too much for Vegeta.

But no, Vegeta catches his punch and then starts pummeling him again, which still does no damage, so Black lands another surprise blow, this time with a ki blade, inflicting a fatal wound to Vegeta and ending the battle.

This whole sequence of events just makes his transformation look completely unnecessary, because his performance doesn't really change. Guess he just wanted to show off his new flashy form.

[SupremeKai25]

Vegeta's first fight vs Goku Black in the anime is so annoying. He starts out in Blue pummeling away at base form Black, only for Black to smile as he apparently isn't taking damage at all, startling Vegeta. Black then lands a surprise blow on Vegeta from the front and then goes SS Rose, which suggests, if he can perform that well in base, his transformed state must be way too much for Vegeta.

But no, Vegeta catches his punch and then starts pummeling him again, which still does no damage, so Black lands another surprise blow, this time with a ki blade, inflicting a fatal wound to Vegeta and ending the battle.

This whole sequence of events just makes his transformation look completely unnecessary, because his performance doesn't really change. Guess he just wanted to show off his new flashy form.

Rosé was indeed way too much for Vegeta. When Base Black kicked him in the guts, Vegeta shrugged it off. Meanwhile, Rosé Black literally oneshot him. He stabbed him in the chest and knocked him unconscious, to the point that Trunks had to check if he was still alive. Black then proceeds to knock Goku to the ground too.

You can tell that Black was just having fun when Vegeta was pummelling him. Black is a sadist who enjoys pain, so being pummelled is something he would totally enjoy. As well he likes to toy with his opponents. He wanted to deceive Vegeta into thinking he stood a chance vs. Rosé, only to shatter his hopes soon after. That's why he proceeds to trash talk him, saying that he's only an appetizer before the main course (= fodder).

Ironically, the only thing that saved them that day was Future Zamasu's intervention, otherwise they would've all been destroyed by the Rosé kamehameha.

[ZeroNeonix]

The power scaling in Super is very much all over the place. When we're first introduced to Super Saiyan God, it's portrayed as a level well beyond SS3. Heck, Goku and Beerus almost destroyed the entire universe just by punching each other. Then we're given Super Saiyan Blue, which is even more powerful than that. But after their initial appearances, they've basically just become vague visual cues of a power increase.

Now, I know Toriyama doesn't have some secret chart somewhere, as an aid to help him keep power levels consistent. There were really only two basic rules:

1) New bad guy = Stronger than the good guys

2) New transformation/powerup = Stronger than everyone else

For example: Frieza shows up, and he's stronger than the Ginyu Force and the good guys. Piccolo absorbs Nail, and he's stronger than Frieza. Frieza transforms, and he's stronger than Piccolo. Goku shows up, he gets Super Saiyan, and he's stronger than Frieza. Frieza transforms into 100% Power form, and he gives Goku a run for his money.

It was consistent. Never in Dragon Ball did we have something like a battle between say Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and Yamcha, where Yamcha didn't immediately get obliterated. But Super has weird inconsistencies, like Super Saiyan 2 Trunks fighting on the same level as Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta, but then getting a new transformation which is...also on the same level as Super Saiyan Blue. Heck, Trunks doesn't even get the upper hand when he gets this transformation, so that's breaking rule 2 right there. There's no way to gauge how strong characters are when you do things like that. It makes battles feel like an empty light show.

[Matches Malone]

The power scaling in Super is very much all over the place.

The problem is that Super's trying to have its cake and eat it to. They want to have these out of this world strong characters while also keeping the weaker ones relevant. If you're going to make Goku, Vegeta, & the villains they fight be leaps and bounds above the levels of characters within the Cell and Buu arc, you can't have those characters keeping up without creative massive power scaling issues. Either keep the focus exclusively on the strong characters or don't push things so high.

[ZeroNeonix]

The power scaling in Super is very much all over the place.

The problem is that Super's trying to have its cake and eat it to. They want to have these out of this world strong characters while also keeping the weaker ones relevant. If you're going to make Goku, Vegeta, & the villains they fight be leaps and bounds above the levels of characters within the Cell and Buu arc, you can't have those characters keeping up without creative massive power scaling issues. Either keep the focus exclusively on the strong characters or don't push things so high.

Heck, DBZ had a similar problem in the Buu arc. How do you introduce these new child characters and have them be just as relevant as these super powerful warriors who have been training for their whole lives? Easy. Just make them Super Saiyans. Toriyama knew how ridiculous that was, but he poked fun at his own idea. Vegeta is flabbergasted when he finds out his son can just transform and he didn't know it. But despite that, he was still being consistent. He raised these otherwise weaker characters into the forefront by giving them a transformation, including fusion, to catch them up to the others.

IMO, the Future Trunks arc should have had Trunks train with Vegeta and learn how to become a Super Saiyan God. Then he could have fought Rose Black without it feeling weird.

[Noah]

Since Sir Sean Connery (the 1st James Bond) passed away a few days ago, I would like to use to this thread to appreciate some Bond references in DB:

The one everyone knows:

Spoiler:

Other ones that I found browsing:

Spoiler:

Also some of Kikuchi soundtrack in Red Ribbon Army arc are very 60's spy movies like, also it's clear the RR are a reference to the SPECTRE, the villainous organization present in most Bond films.

If you guys know more, feel free to share it!

[TobyS]

Honestly most of those powerscaling things can be explained by
"the anime is bad and it's more consistent in the manga"
But ironically the 1 weird example of bad powerscaling we get in the manga is the same arc.
Vegeta SS2 does better against SS black then a SS3 powered SS2 Trunks can.
Blacks forms don't scale the same way, but he should be stronger then Vegeta, unless Vegeta is now like over 4 times stronger than Goku...

Although he could have been sandbagging, wanting to get healed and powered up again like he did with Trunks, the way he mentions to Zamasu that "he took a while" implies he was expecting him back during that fights time span but it still seems weird... And Trunks possibly could notice he's not as strong as he used to be.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

What would you guys' thoughts have been if Super pulled off a Boruto in its first episode? Where it's a teaser of Goku fighting a new villain that we don't know about, besides maybe his name and the fact that he supposedly "took care of" Beerus? Would you guys get hyped about that teaser?

[Matches Malone]

What would you guys' thoughts have been if Super pulled off a Boruto in its first episode? Where it's a teaser of Goku fighting a new villain that we don't know about, besides maybe his name and the fact that he supposedly "took care of" Beerus? Would you guys get hyped about that teaser?

The problem with that kind of opening is that it essentially makes everything before the teased event seem like a waste of time. How many people would've cared about everything pre-Namek if DB opened with Bardock being killed by this mysterious alien ? No one would've cared about the outcome of Goku's fight with Roshi, or whether or not he took down the RRA, everyone would be more interested in that opening tease being continued.

[SupremeKai25]

What would you guys' thoughts have been if Super pulled off a Boruto in its first episode? Where it's a teaser of Goku fighting a new villain that we don't know about, besides maybe his name and the fact that he supposedly "took care of" Beerus? Would you guys get hyped about that teaser?

This reminds me of a what-if I read once that went something like this:

"What if the Future Trunks arc opened with a very short clip of Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks facing off against Fused Zamasu? How would this affect the mystery and hype of the arc?"

I am not used to a story starting in medias res (i.e. in the middle of the action, without any background info)... I guess it would make theorists go crazy, but it would also make the arc more predictable. I don't think this would be a problem for Dragon Ball though, since the major plot points of the various arcs tend to be predictable.

[precita]

What would you guys' thoughts have been if Super pulled off a Boruto in its first episode? Where it's a teaser of Goku fighting a new villain that we don't know about, besides maybe his name and the fact that he supposedly "took care of" Beerus? Would you guys get hyped about that teaser?

The problem with that kind of opening is that it essentially makes everything before the teased event seem like a waste of time. How many people would've cared about everything pre-Namek if DB opened with Bardock being killed by this mysterious alien ? No one would've cared about the outcome of Goku's fight with Roshi, or whether or not he took down the RRA, everyone would be more interested in that opening tease being continued.

Technically that's what Kai does, since it starts with them splicing in the first few minutes of the Bardock special into the first episode.

[Grimlock]

I think a teaser like Boruto would only work if it's something like the Goku vs Vegeta fight in Dragon Ball Online. As it causes a great impact on both the viewers and the narrative, since we may never see them again.

A teaser like that against a villain/opponent who will not cause such impact nor will bring anything substantial is pointless. For now, Kawaki works because he'll destroy Konoha (hopefully for good this time, otherwise it'd be just Pain rehash/pointless) and Dende (or better yet, Kaguya) knows what else he did besides that.

[ZeroNeonix]

Since Yamoshi's spirit is supposed to be the thing that allows modern Saiyans like Goku to become Super Saiyan Gods, there's something I've been wondering. Can Universe 6 Saiyans become Super Saiyan Gods, since they (presumably) don't have a Yamoshi in their universe? Is Super Saiyan 3 the highest form Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale can strive for?

[Matches Malone]

Can Universe 6 Saiyans become Super Saiyan Gods, since they (presumably) don't have a Yamoshi in their universe? Is Super Saiyan 3 the highest form Cabba, Caulifla, and Kale can strive for?

U6 Saiyans have something far stronger than Yamoshi, the power of merchandising.

[ABED]

What would you guys' thoughts have been if Super pulled off a Boruto in its first episode? Where it's a teaser of Goku fighting a new villain that we don't know about, besides maybe his name and the fact that he supposedly "took care of" Beerus? Would you guys get hyped about that teaser?

The problem with that kind of opening is that it essentially makes everything before the teased event seem like a waste of time. How many people would've cared about everything pre-Namek if DB opened with Bardock being killed by this mysterious alien ? No one would've cared about the outcome of Goku's fight with Roshi, or whether or not he took down the RRA, everyone would be more interested in that opening tease being continued.

Technically that's what Kai does, since it starts with them splicing in the first few minutes of the Bardock special into the first episode.

Kai didn't exist in a vacuum. People know the story.

I think it's far too simplistic to say no one would care what came before, but I do agree to some degree that if you tease something, it will be in the back of the audience's mind for a while. But here's the catch, if you don't get them to care about what comes before the payoff, they won't care about the payoff, especially if you tease them too long.

[Melee_Sovereign]

How many people would've cared about everything pre-Namek if DB opened with Bardock being killed by this mysterious alien ?

That's not quite a good analogy. Boruto is a sequel series of an established franchise. The original DB opening up with Bardock like that, wouldn't be the same, as it would be a new series that hasn't established itself yet.

If DBZ opened up like that instead, that might be different. That said, plenty of series start out that way with that kind of opening. It all comes down to execution.

[Matches Malone]

plenty of series start out that way with that kind of opening. It all comes down to execution.

I think it might be OK if the cliffhanger isn't too far off, but with Boruto, we'll be well into the 300s by the time we get there.