Non-thread-worthy discussions

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LoganForkHands73
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:39 pm

I believe Gohan's been studying Saiyan biology on the side.

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SupremeKai25
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:26 pm

Grimlock wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:08 am As you can see, that was months ago. People do accept blindly new information, and surprise, surprise... I was there to tell them not to do that.
Can you not ping me for this?

Yes, Toriyama retconned Bulma's age. It is a retcon, he was inconsistent.

Are you happy now? It's just the age of some useless secondary character who is only kept in the spotlight for jokes and nostalgia. There's no reason to get so touchy over this topic.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by QuakingStar » Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:07 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:39 pm I believe Gohan's been studying Saiyan biology on the side.
He could have also easily asked Vegeta at any point. Vegeta only left Earth with Broly and Goku 3 weeks prior to go training on Whis Planet yet again..

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ZeroNeonix » Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:57 am

QuakingStar wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:07 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:39 pm I believe Gohan's been studying Saiyan biology on the side.
He could have also easily asked Vegeta at any point. Vegeta only left Earth with Broly and Goku 3 weeks prior to go training on Whis Planet yet again..
I don't know how Vegeta would react to Gohan asking him questions about his Saiyan heritage. I could see two very different responses both being very in-character for him.

"Hey, Vegeta. Can I ask you a question about Saiyans?"

Response A: "Since when do you give a damn? Get lost."

Response B: "About time. What would you like to know? Saiyan courting rituals? Religious traditions? Body hair? Before you ask, yes, body hair does go golden when you go Super."

"Uh, actually. I just wanted to know why Goten and Trunks still look like they're seven."

"Oh, they'll get a growth spurt soon. Saiyans remain small for a longer amount of time. It helps when you're sent off to take over an alien planet, and the natives think you're a weak little child."

"Ah, I see. Thanks, Vegeta!"

"Wait! Would you like me to make you some Saiyan cuisine? Most of it's not very good. Mostly flame grilled meats, occasionally seasoned when we feel like splurging, but my mother had a secret family recipe for candied insect larvae that is nearly palatable by Earth standards."

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:05 pm

Some retcons are good though.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:49 pm

In DB Online, is Gohan actually teaching ki control to the human kind? like a bank robber can learn how to shoot ki blasts and blow up a wall instead of using a gun and the door like an idiot?

Are there any details on that? it sounds like a terrible idea to just let every asshole around have ki control, like the dude that shot Bee the dog having that firepower at his disposal, that would be nuts.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Grimlock » Sat Oct 15, 2022 5:12 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:18 pmLet's just be happy that Goten and Trunks don't look like little kids anymore. lol
If Dragon Ball Super returns making the same mistake of retelling what doesn't need to be retold, we are going to have to endure seeing Goten and Trunks inaccuracies for a while longer. They appear in Movie 1 (and in Moro saga, I think), it's a brief appearance, but Toei can extend it. Only Dende knows how long we'll have to wait until we get "stories" set after Movie 2 (or better yet, after the tournament).
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:26 pmYes, Toriyama retconned Bulma's age. It is a retcon, he was inconsistent.
The discussion was about whether or not you accept that retcon, not whether there is a retcon or not.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:26 pmIt's just the age of some useless secondary character who is only kept in the spotlight for jokes and nostalgia.
I can't help but notice you have this habit of dismissing anything you don't care as unimportant. And while you are halfway right, Bulma is there for no reason at all, ages (and overall chronology) do matter, regardless of whose it is.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by dbgtFO » Mon Oct 24, 2022 5:37 am

I just realized the other day, when looking at theories and speculations regarding the androids' appearance across all the timelines, that the date they started their reign of terror is the anniversary of the time Goku defeated the RR Army!

I'm pretty sure all the official guidebooks and what not haven't actually made the connection, at least as far as I know.

It is also a complete coincidence most likely, because the tournaments didn't have an official established date until the Daizenshuu decided that all tournaments take place on the same date; May 7th and that just happens to fall in line with Goku eventually defeating the RR Army on May 12th.
May 12th of course being the date given for when the Androids first appear on that island in the south.

It's nice that this could explain why Dr. Gero decided to strike on that specific day, because it was such a significant day in his life.
His dreams of world domination ended that day, but now they would be restarted on the anniversary of that day.

Here Herms' guide.
Look up "may 12th" and there are 8 occurences in there.
viewtopic.php?t=19669

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Lance Freeman » Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:15 pm

Crunchyroll may have switched the video masters for DBZ to the Dragon Box. I'll have to look into this when I get the chance and I have no idea what this could possibly mean for the next home release.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Nov 05, 2022 7:38 pm

Lance Freeman wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:15 pm Crunchyroll may have switched the video masters for DBZ to the Dragon Box. .
They've been using the Dragon Box masters up until at least the Buu saga for a while now. At least as far as the subtitled version is concerned.

Unless you mean the dub.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Lance Freeman » Sat Nov 05, 2022 7:45 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 7:38 pm
Lance Freeman wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:15 pm Crunchyroll may have switched the video masters for DBZ to the Dragon Box. .
They've been using the Dragon Box masters up until at least the Buu saga for a while now. At least as far as the subtitled version is concerned.

Unless you mean the dub.
The dub is supposedly showing up on the new releases section, which has a bunch of people thinking it too may have been updated to DBox quality.

Edit: Nevermind, I checked it and it's still 16:9. Why it's hanging around the new releases section, I have no idea. I hoped Sony-roll-mation was gearing up to finally fix their biggest mistake with this series.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Civic » Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:19 am

There's an interview with Toriyama going back to 2014 where he mentions that Super Saiyan has the potential to outshine the strength of SSJ2 and SSJ3 if trained hard enough. Is this ever mentioned directly in any source material (I'd assume only Super manga/anime due to the date of the quote) or is it just Word of God information?

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:38 am

Civic wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:19 am There's an interview with Toriyama going back to 2014 where he mentions that Super Saiyan has the potential to outshine the strength of SSJ2 and SSJ3 if trained hard enough. Is this ever mentioned directly in any source material (I'd assume only Super manga/anime due to the date of the quote) or is it just Word of God information?
I guess the closest to that is Vegeta's rage form from BoG. He surpassed SS3 Goku in just his SS form, although it could've been his SS2 form, with Toei you never know (Goku used SS vs Majin Vegeta for an entire episode). In the Zamau arc, manga SS2 Vegeta still outclasses SS3 Goku and SS Black. And Trunks' SS2 can be powered up to be on the level of SS3.
This is followed up in the Broly movie, Geets' SS (no sparks, now) keeps up with a Broly that keeps on growing stronger.

So, we've gotten SS2 outshining SS3, not SS.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Noah » Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:51 pm

It's a bit sad for me that we had only a few bits explaining about Ki in the whole series, highlights for the time Gohan tries to teach Videl how to fly.

I mean I really would liked if was something a bit like Nen from HxH (not needing to explain every little detail, categories or such), but basic things like using Ki for defense or sharpening your sight.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Civic » Thu Nov 17, 2022 11:56 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:38 am
Civic wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:19 am There's an interview with Toriyama going back to 2014 where he mentions that Super Saiyan has the potential to outshine the strength of SSJ2 and SSJ3 if trained hard enough. Is this ever mentioned directly in any source material (I'd assume only Super manga/anime due to the date of the quote) or is it just Word of God information?
I guess the closest to that is Vegeta's rage form from BoG. He surpassed SS3 Goku in just his SS form, although it could've been his SS2 form, with Toei you never know (Goku used SS vs Majin Vegeta for an entire episode). In the Zamau arc, manga SS2 Vegeta still outclasses SS3 Goku and SS Black. And Trunks' SS2 can be powered up to be on the level of SS3.
This is followed up in the Broly movie, Geets' SS (no sparks, now) keeps up with a Broly that keeps on growing stronger.

So, we've gotten SS2 outshining SS3, not SS.
Yes very true. Even though it's SSJ2, it holds true to the spirit of what Toriyama said, at least.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Grimlock » Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:13 pm

theherodjl wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:12 pmYou really seem insistent on DB living up to a certain standard - your preferred brand - but that's not really what everyone else is looking for or having a firm expectation of in the future.
Yes, and that "certain standard" is called "modern times". Dragon Ball can still be "free of plot-heavy story" (it still presented time travel, which is never an easy and simple thing to work with, so it can have more elaborated stories) and be "light" in nature (it still presented the Bardock and Trunks TV Specials, which were "dark", so it can have more serious stories) while still striving to do something better than it did over thirty years ago. We are not in the 80s and 90s anymore, things have changed, and just because something worked over thirty years ago, it does not mean it will still work today. Why do you think we have better cartoons out there? Because Dragon Ball failed to evolve, it's still doing the exact same things it did in the past, and as a result, we have Dragon Ball Super, a mediocre-at-best show when compared to other contemporary shows (and I'd venture to say we don't need to compare, it's mediocre on its own), among other problems it has.

I am aware that's not what everyone else is looking for, I know people just want to see flashy battles and their favorites characters shining. As lamentable as that is, that's fine. All I'm saying is that you can have those things under a better plot. That's what I would very much like people to see. I believe the more people can see and voice that, then the more the powers that be will notice it and will try to put a bit more of effort into the story, the way they usually do when doing the battle scenes.

To give an example and put into perspective, did Dragon Ball Super Broly really need to have most of its runtime dedicated to the fight scene? We only had twenty five minutes of actual story in the beginning. Why rush that part? Either it should have been the other way around, or they should have tried to find a balance. This movie came close to being what I wish to see from modern Dragon Ball, but the interesting part was deeply cut short... It had potential (as Dragon Ball overall has, but it frequently underdelivers).
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:36 pm

I'm fairly certain DB was surrounded by plenty of better written shows back in the 80s and 90s. The mediocrity mostly boils down to having gone past its ending.

The plot heavy time travel aspect was window dressing. Even the Cell arc and Zamasu arc are simple martial arts stories at their core.

I've grown to not like plot heavy stories as much as I find them often overwritten and mostly distract from what the core of the story actually is.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Toxin45 » Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:13 am

marital arts still is a thing even if this escalated in later parts.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Grimlock » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:34 am

Hey, so I was thinking, now that Ultimate is undoubtedly a transformation and certainly has its own multiplier, do you think it's the same for everyone?

Though acquired through other means, Piccolo was after unlocking his potential and Shenlong did just that, so Ultimate is still treated as this "unlock potential" thing from its first appearance. Thing is, "potential" is obviously not the same for everyone. Do you think having more or less "hidden/dormant" potential can influence the multiplier?

It should be the case, because if it's the same for everyone, then I don't think the characters are unlocking their potential upon transforming into it. Makes sense, right?

(You're welcome to try and guess the multiplier of Ultimate for Piccolo and Gohan [and Xeno Goten too!], by the way. :)).
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Yuji » Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:42 am

Grimlock wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:34 am Hey, so I was thinking, now that Ultimate is undoubtedly a transformation and most certainly has its own multiplier, do you think it is the same for everyone?

Though acquired through other means, Piccolo was after unlocking his potential and Shenlong did just that, so Ultimate is still treated as this "unlock potential" thing from its first appearance. Thing is, "potential" is obviously not the same for everyone. Do you think having more or less "hidden/dormant" potential can influence the multiplier?

It should be the case, because if it's the same for everyone, then I don't think the characters are unlocking their potential upon transforming into it. Makes sense, right?

(You're welcome to try and guess the multiplier of Ultimate for Piccolo and Gohan [and Xeno Goten too!], by the way. :)).
If there is a multiplier you could probably calculate it by comparing Gotenks, Gohan and Goku during the Boo arc depending on how strong you think their various forms are.

Because I think SS Gotenks is around SS3 Goku, then Ultimate Gohan would be fairly above the 8x gap between SS and SS3 Gotenks. Around 10-15x SS.

But multipliers in the series have arguably been fluid. It seems like they're not set and can vary depending on how much training you do for a certain form. For example, for me the SS multiplier increased from x50 to x100 when mastered, which explains the discrepancy between SS Vegeta and SS Cabba despite Vegeta claiming they were equal in base form.

I would not doubt if ultimate Gohan's multiplier had increased over the years. Base Piccolo is probably stronger than base Gohan (and more comparable to the SS forms) and yet Ultimate Piccolo was slightly weaker than Ultimate Gohan. Ultimate Piccolo probably had the same x1000-1500 multiplier as Boo arc Gohan owing to having just unlocked the form, but Gohan's probably increased far beyond that point by now.

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