Non-thread-worthy discussions

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

MyVisionity
Banned
Posts: 1834
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:51 pm
Location: US

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Mar 04, 2022 2:56 am

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:29 pm Vegeta does have some contempt towards his fellow saiyans... he had no quarrels with completely exterminating them after needlessly killing Nappa and trying to kill Goku and Gohan.

So at least in Z, he does hate pretty much every single saiyan alive.
Vegeta just doesn't like anybody. Saiyan or otherwise. The only person he really cares about, or cared about, is himself. That's just the nature of the Saiyan race, and especially a Super Elite like Vegeta.

Nevermind Nappa, he probably wouldn't have hesitated to kill his own father if he had wanted. Remember his words after 17 kills Gero?

It's the Saiyan identity that he cares about, not the race itself.

User avatar
ZeroNeonix
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1393
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:35 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ZeroNeonix » Fri Mar 04, 2022 4:05 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 2:56 am It's the Saiyan identity that he cares about, not the race itself.
I don't know if that's entirely true. There are many things in the series that suggest he cares about other Saiyans, from the way he refers to Goku exclusively by his Saiyan name, to the interest he's taken in Universe 6's Saiyans (teaching Cabba about Saiyan pride, and promising to visit Sadala one day). I think to some extent, his lack of reaction to the near extermination of his race was just a tough-guy act. I think of moments like when Frieza gave him a killing blow, and he pled with Goku to finish the job. He burst into tears, lamenting how Frieza took his family away from him when he was just a child. His life mission was to get revenge on Frieza, which is part of the reason he was so angry that Goku agreed to bring Frieza back to life after the Tournament of Power. Then there's the time Goku had to convince Vegeta to fuse with him, to preserve the "new race" of Saiyan hybrids they had created on Earth.

Also, somewhat recently, something happened in the manga. I don't know if it is still too soon to talk about openly, so I'll spoiler tag it.


So, yeah. I don't think it's fair to say that Vegeta only cares about his own Saiyan identity. His relationship with other Saiyans is just very complicated. He holds all Saiyans to high standards, and he's not afraid to kill them if he feels it is necessary, such as when they fail to live up to his standards (with Nappa) or when he thinks they're too dangerous to be left alive (which is what I presume to be the case with Broly).

MyVisionity
Banned
Posts: 1834
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:51 pm
Location: US

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:13 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 4:05 pm
MyVisionity wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 2:56 am It's the Saiyan identity that he cares about, not the race itself.
I don't know if that's entirely true. There are many things in the series that suggest he cares about other Saiyans, from the way he refers to Goku exclusively by his Saiyan name, to the interest he's taken in Universe 6's Saiyans (teaching Cabba about Saiyan pride, and promising to visit Sadala one day).
The Saiyan names and Saiyan pride are about Saiyan identity, not about any feelings towards other Saiyans.

Also I'm mainly talking about pre-EoZ Vegeta. Of course post-end Vegeta might care about others.

ZeroNeonix wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 4:05 pm I think to some extent, his lack of reaction to the near extermination of his race was just a tough-guy act. I think of moments like when Frieza gave him a killing blow, and he pled with Goku to finish the job. He burst into tears, lamenting how Frieza took his family away from him when he was just a child. His life mission was to get revenge on Frieza, which is part of the reason he was so angry that Goku agreed to bring Frieza back to life after the Tournament of Power. Then there's the time Goku had to convince Vegeta to fuse with him, to preserve the "new race" of Saiyan hybrids they had created on Earth.
That's the English dub you're referring to. Vegeta doesn't mention anything about losing his family or his childhood in the original. His tears were all about his Saiyan pride. He never wanted revenge on Freeza for killing his race. It was because Freeza looked down upon Saiyans and made them serve him. That hurt Vegeta's pride.

Same with Majin Boo, that was dub only. There was nothing about any new race or anything. Goku simply points out how Boo had killed everybody, particularly Bulma. Again it was more about Vegeta's pride than anything else.

User avatar
Noah
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8141
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Noah » Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:49 pm

Krillin1994 wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:28 pmHey we need Goten and Trunks to appear in this movie, to hype us all up for them to spectacularly fail so that we can all speculate how they can use that going forward in the future of Dragonball to drive growth and development...
Yea, the whole thing about them growing up is that people expected Super to be a story after EoZ just like GT, hell there are people who were expecting something like this when a new anime was announced.

But seeing how the franchise is going nowadays, I don't think we may get a story much beyond that. Super Hero is like a year or two before EoZ, right? It's close, but I don't see they cruising this point yet.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4265
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:23 pm

Noah wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:49 pm
Krillin1994 wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:28 pmHey we need Goten and Trunks to appear in this movie, to hype us all up for them to spectacularly fail so that we can all speculate how they can use that going forward in the future of Dragonball to drive growth and development...
Yea, the whole thing about them growing up is that people expected Super to be a story after EoZ just like GT, hell there are people who were expecting something like this when a new anime was announced.

But seeing how the franchise is going nowadays, I don't think we may get a story much beyond that. Super Hero is like a year or two before EoZ, right? It's close, but I don't see they cruising this point yet.
SH is, at most, one year before EoZ. Pan seems to be roughly the same age as in EoZ, so a year should be the biggest time gap possible between both stories.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8233
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Grimlock » Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:41 pm

It isn't. Pan is three years old in the movie. That puts the movie two years before the tournament.

Image

With Pan being born in AGE 779, she turns one in AGE 780. She turns two in AGE 781. She turns three in AGE 782. She turns four in AGE 783. She turns five in AGE 784 (at some point after the tournament).
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8233
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Grimlock » Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:14 am

ZeroNeonix wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:04 pmUh... No? There is quite a wide range when it comes to fanservice. There's good fanservice and bad fanservice. If it serves the story and feels natural, and it is executed well, it's good fanservice. When Tobey McGuire and Andrew Garfield showed up in No Way Home, that was definitely fanservice. Was it good? Yes. Or to stick to a Dragon Ball example, the Dragon Ball Super: Broly was pure fanservice. It takes the most popular movie villain and canonizes them for Super. I was skeptical of the movie immediately, but the execution in my opinion was good enough that I ended up not minding it. It wasn't on the same level as No Way Home, but it was still good.
But as you said yourself, it's your opinion. I'm not here to discuss it, it's fine whatever you think or deem "good", "bad", "well executed", "bad executed" fanservice. But whatever feels natural to you may not feel as natural to someone else. Believe or not, I have seen people saying Maguire's and Garfield's appearances were nothing more than "fanservice". While others presented counter arguments explaining why their appearances were not merely "fanservice".

In short, this is all subjective. But the issue begins when, as I said it, you target one specific work when other related works do the same. You can't complain about Heroes' fanservice without even acknowledging that Dragon Ball Super does exactly the same thing. And while you can say Heroes does a poor job at it, I say Dragon Ball Super manages to do just as bad (maybe even worse). See how pointless this is? In the end, we're all in the same boat (possibly about to sink).

By the way, I also disagree that "Dragon Ball Super is more grounded than Heroes". I think what the game is doing should be the "standard" Dragon Ball of modern times. I mean, Dragon Ball is not afraid to take Superman's origin stories and give to its own protagonist and other popular ideas, why couldn't it take some inspiration from Spider-Man No Way Home (i.e. comics in general) too?
ZeroNeonix wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:04 pmI'd argue Heroes is in a space between, in part because of the expectations I have going into it. I don't expect compelling storytelling when it comes to Heroes. The story literally doesn't matter. The series exists solely to provide fanservice (and advertise the game of the same name), so it's fine. If Heroes type content started showing up in Super, that'd destroy my ability to keep it seriously.
I don't expect compelling storytelling from anything when it comes to Dragon Ball. The story, almost always, never mattered (we got a movie that rushed the compelling part just so we could get as quickly as possible to the flashy battles that lasted over forty minutes). Now if the standard approach for Dragon Ball is to never expect compelling storytelling, why would any of us keep complaining about it? Also, if Dragon Ball Super type of content level continues to be this low, that would destroy any and all attachment I ever had to the series (unfortunately, I can't even say Dragon Ball is my favorite series anymore thanks to that).
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
Yuji
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1097
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Yuji » Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:04 am

Grimlock wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:41 pm It isn't. Pan is three years old in the movie. That puts the movie two years before the tournament.

Image

With Pan being born in AGE 779, she turns one in AGE 780. She turns two in AGE 781. She turns three in AGE 782. She turns four in AGE 783. She turns five in AGE 784 (at some point after the tournament).
Doesn't Granolah (and Moro) also take place in 782? That's a big growth spurt for Pan and Goten and Trunks.

User avatar
Noah
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8141
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Noah » Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:12 pm

Posted on the Manga thread, but I believe it could serve this thread as well:
The thing about Goku Black being so popular is that he's almost the Evil Goku concept we ever wanted that before was only part to fanfiction.

But I think they handled him poorly, seeing how popular Black become, they could have made him a sort of a recurring villain. I almost though they would do that using the Mafuba by simply trapping him in a jar, to sometime after he managed to escape in another arc...

That's why I appreciate Heroes, they gave us fans chance to taste a concept similar to this, that's sadly will probably never happen in the core series.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
Saiya6Cit
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:53 am
Location: MEXICO
Contact:

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Saiya6Cit » Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:25 pm

[/quote]

Doesn't Granolah (and Moro) also take place in 782? That's a big growth spurt for Pan and Goten and Trunks.
[/quote]

I think it is clear that they are not going to follow the end of Z time line.

fleahop
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 172
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:57 am

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by fleahop » Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:00 pm

I think it would be really interesting and nice to see Goku react to one of the characters dying from natural causes.
Movie 1/Dead Zone >>> DBS Broly

I'll die on this hill

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8233
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Grimlock » Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:00 am

Yuji wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:04 amDoesn't Granolah (and Moro) also take place in 782? That's a big growth spurt for Pan and Goten and Trunks.
We see baby Pan, as well as Goten and Trunks (erroneously) portrayed as kids in Moro saga, so it must take place before AGE 782. As for Granola saga, it is said to take place just a few months after Moro saga.

You can place both sagas in AGE 781, if you want. But not beyond that. You may also want to take a look at my placement. I give more details in there.
Saiya6Cit wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:25 pmI think it is clear that they are not going to follow the end of Z time line.
There's nothing clear about that.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
Desassina
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:04 am

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Desassina » Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:00 pm

fleahop wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:00 pm I think it would be really interesting and nice to see Goku react to one of the characters dying from natural causes.
I would like to see that concept and Goku's reaction knowing the implication, but Dragon Ball is so far removed from the dragon ball hunt that it used to for the quest to have a meaning, because now there's Super Shenron to make anything possible.

User avatar
Hulk10
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1440
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:55 pm
Location: New Sadala

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Apr 05, 2022 6:24 pm

The timeline is all over the place........
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

User avatar
TrunksTrevelyan0064
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 702
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 9:55 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by TrunksTrevelyan0064 » Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:33 am

I've been randomly rewatching the Freeza fight, and Kaiō keeps saying "They touched that which must not be touched."
And I just realized that, intentional or not, this is Mr. Make-me-laugh-with-a-pun himself delivering a pun.
Usually goes by "Kevtrev" elsewhere online.
Draws comics that may or may not have been inspired by Akira Toriyama's amazing manga-making skills.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8233
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Grimlock » Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:06 pm

And we have Super Saiyan making its debut in a live-action movie. :wink: Go watch it in a theater near you!
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7888
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:43 am

Grimlock wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:06 pm And we have Super Saiyan making its debut in a live-action movie. :wink: Go watch it in a theater near you!
I haven't seen it, but you must be referring to
Also at least Captain Marvel gave us a good idea of what it could look like on a real life human.

User avatar
Xeogran
I Live Here
Posts: 3055
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 10:04 am
Contact:

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Xeogran » Fri Apr 08, 2022 12:58 am

Grimlock wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:06 pm And we have Super Saiyan making its debut in a live-action movie. :wink: Go watch it in a theater near you!
Isn't that still CGI though, technically speaking? We've had 3D Super Saiyans long before 8)

User avatar
Kid Buu
I Live Here
Posts: 4125
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:02 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Apr 08, 2022 2:12 pm

Grimlock wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:06 pm And we have Super Saiyan making its debut in a live-action movie. :wink: Go watch it in a theater near you!
Image

Dragon Ball Evolution got a sequel?
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1945
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Apr 08, 2022 2:38 pm

Kid Buu wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 2:12 pm
Grimlock wrote: Thu Apr 07, 2022 5:06 pm And we have Super Saiyan making its debut in a live-action movie. :wink: Go watch it in a theater near you!
Image

Dragon Ball Evolution got a sequel?
Last edited by PurestEvil on Fri Apr 08, 2022 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

Post Reply