Non-thread-worthy discussions

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7888
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:03 am

Does anyone know of an exhaustive list off all the tracks Yamamoto plagiarized for the Dragon Ball Franchise?
Recently I watched Cowboy Bebop and I heard another track that was plagiarized and then there was also a track by Slash's Snakepit that also was.

User avatar
Noah
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8141
Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:56 pm
Location: Virtual World

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Noah » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:56 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:29 pm When Piccolo shows up, he tells Goku I'm not here to watch your ass, I have something to settle with these guys. Your throw away line of every rival that never goes anywhere, but here they actually were telling the truth, lol. They had some free time and they went at it.
It's funny how Vegeta got that role in the latter movies, but only there it actually matters.

FortuneSSJ wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:28 am Finally finished my DBZ japanese rewatch. The pacing is horrible and I got burned out a couple of times. Kai fast pacing makes it the best way to introduce the series to new audience, even though it has censorship and the music doesn't even come close the to the masterpiece that is Kikuchi's work.
Sorry, but no... even though original DBZ has unberable filler is still leaps and bounds better than Kai, not only because the soundtrack as you acknowleged but also because of the voice actors at their peak doing it for the first something that would become routine for them after many content based on would come in the future years...
dbgtFO wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:03 am Does anyone know of an exhaustive list off all the tracks Yamamoto plagiarized for the Dragon Ball Franchise?
Recently I watched Cowboy Bebop and I heard another track that was plagiarized and then there was also a track by Slash's Snakepit that also was.
You know Kanzenshuu is not only a forum, right? I'm sure you could find it on the website within 2 minutes.
乃亜

Top 10 DB/Z/GT Songs

Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:41 pm

I just finished watching the Tenshinhan arc in Dragon Ball for the first time in Japanese (re-watch of the series, but first time in the sub). Some quick general thoughts:

Ten's Japanese voice perfectly matches the character. My appreciation for the character has risen just from that.

I love the filler directly preceding this arc and during it, for the most part. Ten and Chaozu are introduced earlier than in the manga as bandits; it kind of doesn't make sen that Ten is shocked at Goku's fighting prowess later, but I still like it. I also like the scene where Crane Hermit tries to assassinate Goku and Krillin, and Ten steps in to stop him.

It's pretty hilarious how the anime amps up Ten to be a bigger jerk/bad guy than the manga. From him threatening the cook for not liking the food, to trying to starting fights with Yamcha outside of the tournament, to paralyzing Nam.

The scene where Goku walks out to the arena to face Ten is intense, with the music and the camera angles, plus Goku's serious expression.

Ten using the Kihoko to blast away the arena, then him and Goku falling to the ground, is my favorite finish to a Budokai.

The filler scenes at the end of the arc are maybe the best of Dragon Ball. The crowd cheering Ten, then Roshi telling him telepathically that he's taken his first steps into the light. Goku looking up and seeing Krillin standing there. And then...segue to Krillin running back to get the 4-star ball and Goku watching him with a sense of foreboding. The filler right here is excellent.

As much fun as I had with the arcs preceding this one, my thoughts still stand that the Tenshinhan arc is where Dragon Ball's golden age begins. Also, his redemption arc is Toriyama's best redemption arc and some of his best character work.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:43 pm

Also, the Goku vs Krillin fight...the running Kamehameha Goku does at Krillin, where he then jumps up and fires it so that he launches himself at Krillin...that needs to be a special move for Kid Goku in FighterZ 2.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

MyVisionity
Banned
Posts: 1834
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:51 pm
Location: US

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by MyVisionity » Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:16 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:41 pm Ten's Japanese voice perfectly matches the character. My appreciation for the character has risen just from that.

I love the filler directly preceding this arc and during it, for the most part. Ten and Chaozu are introduced earlier than in the manga as bandits; it kind of doesn't make sense that Ten is shocked at Goku's fighting prowess later, but I still like it.
I had the same exact experience watching Hirotaka Suzuoki as Tenshinhan for the first time. His voice acting is great, and he elevates the arc and the character I feel. I can't stand Funimation's John Burgmeier in comparison.

I also love the filler arc preceding the tournament. The stories are all interesting and unique. I prefer this type of filler arc with single episode stories rather than the multipart filler arcs we see later on. However, I'm not a fan of Tenshinhan appearing earlier than in the manga. It was mostly unnecessary.

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:25 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:16 pm
Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:41 pm Ten's Japanese voice perfectly matches the character. My appreciation for the character has risen just from that.

I love the filler directly preceding this arc and during it, for the most part. Ten and Chaozu are introduced earlier than in the manga as bandits; it kind of doesn't make sense that Ten is shocked at Goku's fighting prowess later, but I still like it.
I had the same exact experience watching Hirotaka Suzuoki as Tenshinhan for the first time. His voice acting is great, and he elevates the arc and the character I feel. I can't stand Funimation's John Burgmeier in comparison.

I also love the filler arc preceding the tournament. The stories are all interesting and unique. I prefer this type of filler arc with single episode stories rather than the multipart filler arcs we see later on. However, I'm not a fan of Tenshinhan appearing earlier than in the manga. It was mostly unnecessary.
Burgmeier makes Tenshinhan sound too dry and boring, especially for a guy who was essentially the original Vegeta in a sense (in terms of presence as well as being a foil for Goku). I don't know that it's his acting so much as that his voice doesn't fit the character. Tenshinhan should be a guy whose voice has an inherent nobility to it, despite his initial arrogance. And once he's redeemed, it should still retain some hint of his former nature.

I agree that him and Chaozu being introduced earlier is unnecessary. I just get a kick out of Toei building up their villainy so much.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7888
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:22 am

Noah wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:56 pm
dbgtFO wrote: Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:03 am Does anyone know of an exhaustive list off all the tracks Yamamoto plagiarized for the Dragon Ball Franchise?
Recently I watched Cowboy Bebop and I heard another track that was plagiarized and then there was also a track by Slash's Snakepit that also was.
You know Kanzenshuu is not only a forum, right? I'm sure you could find it on the website within 2 minutes.
Obviously. I also know they made of feature about the whole ordeal, but they didn't list everything, just examples.
That's why I wanted to know if someone knew of such a list.

User avatar
goku the krump dancer
I Live Here
Posts: 3570
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:28 am

I'm probably being super nitpicky here but this image drawn by Toyotaro makes me uncomfortable. Not because it isnt drawn well but I just think its such a weird choice to have Goku use his right arm and Moro use his left arm to do the whole double fist clash thing. Its a common trope but usually it consists of both characters using either their respective right or left arm to throw the punch. It looks more natural that way as both of the characters have enough room to cock back and throw a punch full force as opposed to what Toyo went with. Maybe its just that he drew them leaning in too closely to each other so it just looks like their arms dont have enough room to fully extend. It almost looks like they're about to do a Wonder Twins fist bump as opposed to prepping to punch each other's lights out. IDK maybe its just me.

Image
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
Peace And Power MF DOOM!
Peace and Power Kevin Samuels

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:36 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:28 am I'm probably being super nitpicky here but this image drawn by Toyotaro makes me uncomfortable. Not because it isnt drawn well but I just think its such a weird choice to have Goku use his right arm and Moro use his left arm to do the whole double fist clash thing. Its a common trope but usually it consists of both characters using either their respective right or left arm to throw the punch. It looks more natural that way as both of the characters have enough room to cock back and throw a punch full force as opposed to what Toyo went with. Maybe its just that he drew them leaning in too closely to each other so it just looks like their arms dont have enough room to fully extend. It almost looks like they're about to do a Wonder Twins fist bump as opposed to prepping to punch each other's lights out. IDK maybe its just me.

Image
It looks to me like Goku's shoulder blades would hurt like hell in a pose like this.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
FortuneSSJ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5810
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by FortuneSSJ » Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:38 pm

Started my GT japanese rewatch some days ago. Some thoughts:

- Goku GT gi is still the best one.
- I don't mind Goten didn't tag along.
- Vegeta should have kept his DBZ haircut and not get a mustache at all.
- Para Para brothers are a fun trio.
- Dolltalki is still as creepy as I remember. He used to scary me when I was a kid. The scene where he tried to take off Pan doll clothes makes me uncomfortable.

Currently on episode 28. The one where the main trio returns to Earth and finds out almost everyone was possessed by Baby. This arc is well done and Baby is a great villain. Unlike Super where we have Beerus/Whis/Zeno button in case of emergency, I can feel how desperate the situation is.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

animation_archive
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:40 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by animation_archive » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:58 am

Hello,

I’m new around here. I had a question about the Japanese Dragon Ball Dragon Box.

This concerns the OG Dragon Ball set (not Z):

I know that the Opening is reused by all 6 episodes on each disc to reduce file sizes. Is the exact same file used for all discs or do different discs have different prints of it? I’m basically wondering if certain discs might have a better condition version than another. (Obviously the major variations of the opening are introduced as the series progresses.)

If anyone happens to know, please share!

animation_archive
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 4:40 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by animation_archive » Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:54 pm

I’m thinking of buying the Japanese Movies Dragon Box. Is this the best way to watch these movies?

I know Toei did new releases of these on Amazon Japan that had some censorship. Does every movie suffer from censorship or is it only certain films?

I’m just looking for the best PQ Japanese audio / Japanese credits releases without censorship.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Nov 20, 2021 11:55 pm

animation_archive wrote: Sat Nov 20, 2021 5:54 pm I’m thinking of buying the Japanese Movies Dragon Box. Is this the best way to watch these movies?

I know Toei did new releases of these on Amazon Japan that had some censorship. Does every movie suffer from censorship or is it only certain films?

I’m just looking for the best PQ Japanese audio / Japanese credits releases without censorship.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
I don't have the exact info you're looking for, but this might help https://www.kanzenshuu.com/home-video/jp/
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:12 pm

I'm currently re-watching the Piccolo Jr. arc, which I'm still maintaining is my favorite arc in all of Dragon Ball. That said, I've come to the conclusion that the 22nd is the better overall tournament when you look at all the matches. The 23rd Budokai is thrilling, but every match serves as pieces of a chess board, moving for the showdown between Goku and Piccolo Jr. It's great storytelling since the re-match (and showing how much more powerful Goku is) is the priority here, but the 22nd is the best tournament of the franchise..
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

MyVisionity
Banned
Posts: 1834
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:51 pm
Location: US

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:48 am

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:12 pm I'm currently re-watching the Piccolo Jr. arc, which I'm still maintaining is my favorite arc in all of Dragon Ball. That said, I've come to the conclusion that the 22nd is the better overall tournament when you look at all the matches. The 23rd Budokai is thrilling, but every match serves as pieces of a chess board, moving for the showdown between Goku and Piccolo Jr. It's great storytelling since the re-match (and showing how much more powerful Goku is) is the priority here, but the 22nd is the best tournament of the franchise..
I think that the 22nd Budoukai is just overall better written than the 23rd. The story and characterization is stronger.

The biggest problem with the 23rd Budoukai is that it is an extension of the Piccolo Daimao arc on top of another tournament arc. This means that the writing has to deal with the Piccolo plot while simultaneously telling the tournament plot, and as a result the overall story doesn't work as well as it would otherwise. It also means that there are extra layers of drama that the arc has to carry, and I don't think that Toriyama was skilled enough yet in handling the heavier sort of material. A lot of the serious moments turn into excessive melodrama in my view.

User avatar
Demon Prince Piccolo
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:56 am

MyVisionity wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:48 am I think that the 22nd Budoukai is just overall better written than the 23rd. The story and characterization is stronger.

The biggest problem with the 23rd Budoukai is that it is an extension of the Piccolo Daimao arc on top of another tournament arc. This means that the writing has to deal with the Piccolo plot while simultaneously telling the tournament plot, and as a result the overall story doesn't work as well as it would otherwise. It also means that there are extra layers of drama that the arc has to carry, and I don't think that Toriyama was skilled enough yet in handling the heavier sort of material. A lot of the serious moments turn into excessive melodrama in my view.
I don't see this as a negative, personally. The whole purpose of the 23rd arc is to continue the Piccolo Daimao storyline, all while setting up the reincarnation as a formidable opponent, whilst showcasing just how much Goku has grown physically and as a fighter. I think it does a superb job interweaving the continuation/conclusion of the Piccolo saga with a tournament arc. The difference here is that every single fight is essential for the story; there's no gag fights (well, maybe Goku vs. Chi-Chi, but it's meant to get him married and to set the stage for Gohan).

The 22nd had a story interwoven throughout it as well. We find out that the Crane Hermit was Tao Pai Pai's brother, and upon discovering Goku is the one who defeated his Tao, the Crane Hermit plans to kill the Turtle pupils. However, it brilliantly paves the way for the bigger plot point, which is Tenshinhan's internal conflict and eventual redemption. I think that's some of Toriyama's cleanest character work of the entire series, and it's expertly handled in this arc. The difference in this arc and the latter is that the individual fights leading up to the final match are more suspenseful. Sure, there's no doubt Goku is going to beat Krillin, but it doesn't feel as telegraphed because it's a closer fight. Ten vs Jackie Chun is almost an evenly matched bout, with Chun stepping out of the ring voluntarily in a stunning move. Krillin vs Chaozu is a challenging bout that sees Krillin having to use his intellect. Yamcha vs Ten, while maybe not that close, is exhilarating from the get-go and not a runaway fight for Ten. Obviously you have stuff like Goku vs Panput and Jackie Chun vs Wolfman as well. But in the 23rd, Ten vs Cyborg Tao is not close. Goku vs Chi-Chi is not close. Piccolo vs Krillin (while showcasing Krillin's growth) is not close. Yamcha vs Shen is not close. Shen vs Piccolo is not close. And even the re-match of Goku vs Ten, while thrilling to watch, is not close. All of these fights are designed mainly to advance the story and to show where the characters we know are at in their journeys. Again, I think it's expertly done, and the Goku vs Piccolo Jr. fight is the best of the franchise, but for the full tournament I prefer the 22nd.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

User avatar
FortuneSSJ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5810
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:07 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sat Nov 27, 2021 7:59 am

I like FT Trunks arc and Goku Black a lot, but for some time I've been seeing fanart of what if it was Gohan Black instead of Goku Black and I have to say that would've been a better choice. Gohan was always said to have high potential. This way he would've been more involved in tthe arc and the emotional part would've been bigger for FT Trunks character.

It would also be something new, since we already had Turles as an evil "Goku" main villain before and Ginyu using Goku's body.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4043
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:13 am

I think Gohan Black, much like Goten Black, seems like a good alternative, but when you stop and think about it for 1 minute, you quickly realize it doesn't make sense.

Zamasu switched bodies with Goku because Goku challenged him to a fight and completely humiliated, Bulma even notes that this whole mess started because Goku picked a fight with the wrong guy.

But Gohan isn't a battle-addict like Goku, and he's also respectful, so he wouldn't blindly challenge Zamasu nor would he make him hate mortals even more with his annoying, disrespectful personality, he wouldn't humiliate him.

I also see fanarts of "Gohan Black" with one arm, implying Zamasu took the body of the Future Gohan somehow, and I ask myself: "Like why? Why would Zamasu take a body with 1 arm? He'd handicap himself severely"

So with the fact that Gohan Black makes 0 sense right from the start, I think it can be argued that Gohan Black would be a better antagonist for Trunks, but at the same time Goku Black was way more impactful to the overall story and to pretty much everyone. It was impactful to Goku (the MC by the way) because Zamasu stole his body, killed his counterpart and his family with it, and used it to lay waste to the mortals. Zamasu stole his body and used it to destroy everything he loves, it's personal. It was impactful to Vegeta because, while he often insults and belittles Goku, he still respects him as a fighter and comrade, which is why he gets so salty when Black steals Goku's body, calling him an "impostor who doesn't understand Goku's power". He doesn't have the same love-hate rival dynamic with Gohan. And it was also impactful to [Future] Bulma because the last thing she sees before she dies horribly is the face of her friend that she's known for decades.

And in the end Goku Black is more impactful to the viewers because Goku is and will always be a bigger and more famous hero than Gohan, the guy who always saves the day. So the fact that Zamasu took his body and twisted it to commit genocide instead is why Zamasu is easily the most savage villain in DB. It just wouldn't work with Gohan because he's not the guy who always saves the day.

Also Goku Black is a very unique counterpart of Zamasu because he starts getting influenced by Goku's body, like when he desires to be the strongest or when he uses food metaphor to refer to people. Gohan doesn't have any of this so Black would end up being more generic if he got Gohan's body instead.

User avatar
LoganForkHands73
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:45 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:13 am I think Gohan Black, much like Goten Black, seems like a good alternative, but when you stop and think about it for 1 minute, you quickly realize it doesn't make sense.

Zamasu switched bodies with Goku because Goku challenged him to a fight and completely humiliated, Bulma even notes that this whole mess started because Goku picked a fight with the wrong guy.

But Gohan isn't a battle-addict like Goku, and he's also respectful, so he wouldn't blindly challenge Zamasu nor would he make him hate mortals even more with his annoying, disrespectful personality, he wouldn't humiliate him.

I also see fanarts of "Gohan Black" with one arm, implying Zamasu took the body of the Future Gohan somehow, and I ask myself: "Like why? Why would Zamasu take a body with 1 arm? He'd handicap himself severely"

So with the fact that Gohan Black makes 0 sense right from the start, I think it can be argued that Gohan Black would be a better antagonist for Trunks, but at the same time Goku Black was way more impactful to the overall story and to pretty much everyone. It was impactful to Goku (the MC by the way) because Zamasu stole his body, killed his counterpart and his family with it, and used it to lay waste to the mortals. Zamasu stole his body and used it to destroy everything he loves, it's personal. It was impactful to Vegeta because, while he often insults and belittles Goku, he still respects him as a fighter and comrade, which is why he gets so salty when Black steals Goku's body, calling him an "impostor who doesn't understand Goku's power". He doesn't have the same love-hate rival dynamic with Gohan. And it was also impactful to [Future] Bulma because the last thing she sees before she dies horribly is the face of her friend that she's known for decades.

And in the end Goku Black is more impactful to the viewers because Goku is and will always be a bigger and more famous hero than Gohan, the guy who always saves the day. So the fact that Zamasu took his body and twisted it to commit genocide instead is why Zamasu is easily the most savage villain in DB. It just wouldn't work with Gohan because he's not the guy who always saves the day.

Also Goku Black is a very unique counterpart of Zamasu because he starts getting influenced by Goku's body, like when he desires to be the strongest or when he uses food metaphor to refer to people. Gohan doesn't have any of this so Black would end up being more generic if he got Gohan's body instead.
While I do think they could write around a way to justify a Gohan Black scenario, I gotta agree with you on this one. Beyond all the reasons you listed, an evil Goku just has more visual impact than an evil Gohan. Gohan's design isn't nearly as distinctive as Goku's (it says a lot that you can quite easily mistake him for short-haired Yamcha). Revealing Goku's loveable spiky silhouette as something dark and fearsome can still give you chills.

In terms of creating an emotional foil for Trunks, I think Goku works just as well as (Future) Gohan. As much as I love Gohan, Trunks has a much more fleshed-out onscreen relationship with Goku. Whereas Gohan was a mentor and big brother figure to Trunks, Goku was Trunks' idol. For Trunks, it must be just as if not more shocking to see this mass murderer wear Goku's face. If not for him, certainly for the audience.

If we got Gohan Black, you know that everyone would scream "wasted" if they didn't take the opportunity to bring present Gohan into the plot somehow to fight his evil self, but the story works fine without him.

Gohan Black is a fun alternative to imagine sometimes, but I prefer what we got overall. Vegeta Black also, though that's less visceral because Vegeta was introduced as a ruthless villain and still has some of those bad traits.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4043
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 6:34 am

In the end fanboys of a specific character would have complained anyway.

Gohan fans wanted him to be Gohan Black because that would mean that Gohan would finally stop giving lectures at university and start fighting in a Shonen series. It was their last hope of getting main character Gohan back.

Goten fans wanted him to be Goten Black because, well, the only new content Goten fans have gotten in Super is their boy getting an energy blade to the teeth by, ironically, Goku Black. At least Trunks fans got Future Trunks back and Kid Trunks had a major story arc with him.

And obviously, last but not least, Vegeta fans wanted him to be Vegeta Black because it was their strongest hope of Vegeta finally getting a W on the main villain.

If it hadn't been Goku Black, it's 100% guaranteed that Goku fanboys would have complained that Black being anyone else took too much attention away from the MC.

The truth is that Goku Black is the best possible choice imaginable for a villain, for the aforementioned reasons (how he ties to most characters, how Goku is the MC and greatest hero and so it's more impactful to see him as a villain, etc).

In like 20 episodes, Goku Black made Goku hate him more than Frieza ever could. Most of the people Frieza killed, like the Saiyans and the parents, are people Goku didn't care about that much (he's only just NOW learning about who his parents were). Whereas Black killed everyone Goku cared about, like the people of Earth (that he has protected since he came there), Bulma, Goku himself, his family, etc. and he did all that using Goku's face and power. Black was even more cold-blooded and savage than Frieza tbh. He is the one villain Goku hated the most, and that's why he NEVER gave him a chance. Does this not prove that this was the most effective villain imaginable, if anything as far as the destruction he caused and his body count are concerned?

Post Reply