Non-thread-worthy discussions

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Forte224
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Forte224 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:54 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:44 pm
All of that is needless exposition. I don't need to know what it feels like, much like I don't need an explanation of how Peter's spidey-sense feels. We get through context and VERY minimal exposition that it warns him of imminent danger and where it's coming from.

Cyborgs don't have ki, hence why Goku and co. can't sense them.

None of what you are talking about is remotely necessary. It's boring worldbuilding and exposition that would stop the story dead in its tracks. The people on this forum debating about the minutia of how it all works isn't proof anything beyond nerdy obsession with fictional concepts, lore, and worldbuilding. Most people get it and go about their day.

No work of fantasy no matter how well thought out is bulletproof.
Have you watched Hunter x Hunter 2011 (I can't speak for the 1999 version)? It explains these types of concepts in such a way that it enhances the show, while also not neglecting its story and characters. You're making it sound like there is no room for explanation ever.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:00 pm

Shaddy wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:52 pm
The popularity of modern shonen manga following Dragon Ball's lead that don't have this same issue, and the amount of people constantly negatively comparing Dragon Ball itself to said manga for reasons such as this would disagree with you. It's not that objective. A lot more people appreciate different things like that than you might think, and this is coming from someone who really couldn't give less of a shit about power levels and ki mechanics. Doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that what it isn't all that great.
I highly doubt that's true at all. I know people like things like continuity and canon and lore, but it's not anywhere near a majority and pandering to those aspects is one reason modern comics aren't as popular as they once were. DB's massive popularity speaks for itself. People complaining on the net proves nothing.
Have you watched Hunter x Hunter 2011 (I can't speak for the 1999 version)? It explains these types of concepts in such a way that it enhances the show, while also not neglecting its story and characters. You're making it sound like there is no room for explanation ever.
No, so I can't speak to this example. The problem isn't lack of explanation. It's that people are looking for ridiculously detailed explanation of how it all works that has no practical benefit to the story. I'm fine with exposition provided it's answering questions I need answered like in a mystery I need the how and why. I don't need to know how stuff like the force or ki works.
Last edited by ABED on Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Forte224 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:04 pm

I guess my point was that Hunter x Hunter does it in such a way that it actually does add to the satisfaction of the show. I am not a fan of the lore/world building crowd myself. I am utterly tired of people acting like Super Dragon Ball Heroes is somehow this superior story when all it does is add lore/world building and focuses almost nothing on its writing and character development.

But HxH is truly something special in this regard and made me realize that there is room for it. I highly recommend it. I seem to recall you saying you are not much of an anime watcher. Neither am I, but I finished the show very very quickly. It's excellent.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:13 pm

Again, haven't seen it, so I can't speak to it either way.

This topic actually could be its own thread.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Forte224 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:14 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:13 pm
Again, haven't seen it, so I can't speak to it either way.
I know, that's why I recommended it :D

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Shaddy » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:19 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:00 pm
I highly doubt that's true at all. I know people like things like continuity and canon and lore, but it's not anywhere near a majority and pandering to those aspects is one reason modern comics aren't as popular as they once were. DB's massive popularity speaks for itself. People complaining on the net proves nothing.
"People complaining on the net" is everyone here though. Most of Dragon Ball's popularity comes from children and/or people who grew up with it as children. So of course they're not going to complain about the parts of it that don't make sense, that doesn't main that said complaints are invalid. It would be no different in regards to characterization issues or production quality if it were just defined by "what appeases the kids".
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:25 pm

Forte224 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:14 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:13 pm
Again, haven't seen it, so I can't speak to it either way.
I know, that's why I recommended it :D
I looked it up on Wikipedia, and it's a different genre and different rules. DB is a very simple story about martial artists whose greatest desire is to get stronger. It's a very straightforward narrative and doesn't require much in the way of worldbuilding or explanations.
It would be no different in regards to characterization issues or production quality if it were just defined by "what appeases the kids".
Not remotely the case. Characterization is one of the core aspects of any story that absolutely does need to be consistent. Story and character are one. And why did you put the last sentence in quotes as if that was what I wrote or was getting at? This isn't about getting something past people, it's about not having pointless explanations that all but the hardest of hardcore fans would even think of asking. The people asking these questions likely aren't discerning viewers. They are more like Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:16 pm

Shaddy wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:56 pm
Okay, then he didn't think his application of it through very well. I mean, it's the same source as Naruto's chakra or Hunter X Hunter's Nen, right? Whatever your opinion on those (AKA Naruto gets a lot worse as it goes) they both make their use of it pretty clear and understandable.
Things like Chakra in Naruto, Reiki in Hakusho, and, I'm assuming, Nen in HxH are concepts that were made up by the authors to be distinctive and original to their series' mythologies. Yes, they are all rooted in the same concepts, but are tailored to fit their creators' unique visions.

Ki in Dragon Ball, however, is Toriyama simply taking the very real world concept of Ki and using it for his story. It's no different than including things like sparring, weighted training, Sage-Hermits, etc. There's not much to "think through" when everything comes from such generalized, common ideas.

Naruto is all about strategy and the tactical. It's designed to be scientific and technical for the sake of world-buiding and by the author's wishes. Dragon Ball was not conceived like this at all, so it wouldn't make sense to see that kind of detail in the series.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Shaddy » Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:29 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:25 pm
Not remotely the case. Characterization is one of the core aspects of any story that absolutely does need to be consistent. Story and character are one.
Weeeeell...not if the series itself has anything to prove. There's been loads of discussion about what Super gets wrong in those departments but it's been more popular than Z. Or hell, look at how many people have flocked to the soulless cashgrab that is the Heroes anime, something devoid of even the slightest touch of Toriyama's personalities for the characters.
ABED wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:25 pm
And why did you put the last sentence in quotes as if that was what I wrote or was getting at?
That was not the intention of that. My point was that your idea of "the audience" is unclear. Dragon Ball's target audience is children who, given that it retains most of the iconography they're already familiar with (or "looks cool", as said before), will pretty much watch anything.
ABED wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:25 pm
This isn't about getting something past people, it's about not having pointless explanations that all but the hardest of hardcore fans would even think of asking. The people asking these questions likely aren't discerning viewers. They are more like Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons.
And I'm not saying that's wrong. But is Dragon Ball lacking the resources to A. explain it through some other medium to the hardcore fans who DO care or B. make it more clear within the show itself? I don't think so.
MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:16 pm
Ki in Dragon Ball, however, is Toriyama simply taking the very real world concept of Ki and using it for his story. It's no different than including things like sparring, weighted training, Sage-Hermits, etc. There's not much to "think through" when everything comes from such generalized, common ideas.
Well except ki as a "real-world concept" and ki in Dragon Ball are obviously not the same thing. I fucking wish they were, but no matter how hard I try I cannot shoot laser beams out of my fingertips.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:17 am

Shaddy wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:29 pm
MyVisionity wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 11:16 pm
Ki in Dragon Ball, however, is Toriyama simply taking the very real world concept of Ki and using it for his story. It's no different than including things like sparring, weighted training, Sage-Hermits, etc. There's not much to "think through" when everything comes from such generalized, common ideas.
Well except ki as a "real-world concept" and ki in Dragon Ball are obviously not the same thing. I fucking wish they were, but no matter how hard I try I cannot shoot laser beams out of my fingertips.
By "real world" I mean in both historical and mythological accounts of Ki. In other words, Toriyama never crafted the concept himself or re-imagined it into something unique or technical as the other authors did. He just took a pre-existing idea and put it in his story. There aren't any series-specific rules to Ki in Dragon Ball because it isn't series-specific. The nature of Ki, including shooting energy beams/flying/etc. was already a very common notion.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Shaddy » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:33 am

Okay? My initial post was responding to the fact that I often see people confused by Dragon Ball's method of communicating ki mechanics, which I attributed to the series' not having a readable guideline to how stuff works, which other stories of similar kind have and I don't notice this same problem in those communities. Dragon Ball fights just kind of do whatever until someone wins, unless you go far back into the earlier arcs. I wasn't looking for this semantic debate on whether ki is a thing in other stories, or whether the people who ask the question are just nerdy fanboys, or whether taking the time to explain would be boring.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:42 am

I have no idea what you are looking for with an explanation. Ki makes you fly and you can shoot energy beams. What mechanics do you find confusing in that? There's zero explanation that could possibly suffice. And we know the stronger a character's ki is, the more durable and more powerful their attacks are. How? Because we see it. We don't need someone to say it, we see. Show, don't tell. Don't overthink it.

MyVisionity said it better than I could. I don't think it's an issue of Toriyama being unclear. A certain small subsect of the overall audience (i.e. hardcore fans on the net) might be unclear, but he wasn't.
That was not the intention of that. My point was that your idea of "the audience" is unclear. Dragon Ball's target audience is children who, given that it retains most of the iconography they're already familiar with (or "looks cool", as said before), will pretty much watch anything.
Why are you lumping all children together? And saying they'll watch anything is awfully condescending.
There's been loads of discussion about what Super gets wrong in those departments but it's been more popular than Z.
What's your metric for this statement?
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Shaddy » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:42 pm

I have no idea what you are looking for with an explanation. Ki makes you fly and you can shoot energy beams. What mechanics do you find confusing in that? There's zero explanation that could possibly suffice. And we know the stronger a character's ki is, the more durable and more powerful their attacks are. How? Because we see it. We don't need someone to say it, we see. Show, don't tell. Don't overthink it.
Okay but they do a shit job showing it too. For example: Super Saiyan. Makes you muscly. Increases physical attack power. How does that work? It functions on ki, something that's seemingly separate from physical bodies in other parts of the story. Otherwise, what does weighted training gear do? What's the point of training the body at all when the magic spirit energy is doing most of the work? How do you actually gain "more" ki? What part of "training" does this? You're saying the answer doesn't matter because "who cares it's not that deep", and you're right! But the fact that you, and really the story itself, don't seem to have any better explanation than "y'know...ki" seems to tell me that it does, infact, not explain this stuff very well.
MyVisionity said it better than I could. I don't think it's an issue of Toriyama being unclear. A certain small subsect of the overall audience (i.e. hardcore fans on the net) might be unclear, but he wasn't.
And how exactly is that """small subsect""" invalid?
Why are you lumping all children together? And saying they'll watch anything is awfully condescending.
Well...you're the one saying that "the audience", whatever the fuck that means to you, will universally not care about what I'm saying, and the ones who do are just fanboys, which I guess means their opinions don't matter.
What's your metric for this statement?
What I've seen and heard from everyone I've talked to about the show, versus how much money we know it's been making? I guess I'm not sure why I said "more popular than Z", I don't know that for certain, but the vast majority would at least take some issue with parts of the writing.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:52 pm

The audience is whoever watches the show. You are making all this entirely too complicated.
You're saying the answer doesn't matter because "who cares it's not that deep",
Not what I was saying. I didn't say anything about depth. My point was at some point with fantasy (though not limited to just fantasy), there's always a point where the audience has to suspend disbelief. I said it's mystical nonsense and trying to explain all this would be redundant and unneccessary not to mention still riddled with inconsistencies since mysticism is by its nature BS. All this stuff about how ki works in conjunction with the physical body is known to Asian audiences. It's like trying to explain how zombies work and the mechanics of how corpses move. It's all bullshit at the end of the day and we've seen so many of these type of stories, it's innately understood at this point. The only reason to stop and explain them is if you are doing something different from the norm. If you're unclear how it works, do some research. My understanding, as shallow as it is, for why people train their body and their ki is because the best way to get stronger is to train both the mystical and physical part. Mind and body being one and all that.
And how exactly is that """small subsect""" invalid?
Because instead of understand the concept of context, in this case it's a Japanese comic based on a Chinese genre, they insist it's unexplained. The implication being that it's bad storytelling. No, Toriyama simply used concepts commonly understood in Japan.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Shaddy » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:09 pm

The audience is whoever watches the show. You are making all this entirely too complicated.
I mean I'm not, but whatever.
Not what I was saying. I said it's mystical nonsense and trying to explain all this would be redundant and unneccessary not to mention still riddled with inconsistencies since mysticism is by its nature BS.
And I'm saying a lot of people like that shit. They're not unable to find a way to explain it. I'm not asking for science here. Again, what's stopping them other than theoretically sharing your opinion that it's not necessary?
All this stuff about how ki works in conjunction with the physical body is known to Asian audiences. It's like trying to explain how zombies work and the mechanics of how corpses move. It's all bullshit at the end of the day and we've seen so many of these type of stories, it's innately understood at this point. The only reason to stop and explain them is if you are doing something different from the norm.
You're assuming that everyone is as genre-savvy as you think that you are, and I think that's kind of antithetical to the idea of Dragon Ball as a work being able to stand on it's own. How incredibly different are the systems that every shonen manga DB inspired that they can explain themselves just fine but the now globally-marketed Dragon Ball is somehow exempt from that despite it's systems, by your own words, only really being known to Asian audiences?
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:27 pm

You're assuming that everyone is as genre-savvy as you think that you are, and I think that's kind of antithetical to the idea of Dragon Ball as a work being able to stand on it's own. How incredibly different are the systems that every shonen manga DB inspired that they can explain themselves just fine but the now globally-marketed Dragon Ball is somehow exempt from that despite it's systems, by your own words, only really being known to Asian audiences?
It's not about being genre savy. It's about a certain audience having a cultural understanding of certain concepts.

DB works because even though it's very Asian in its style and influences, the story is sufficiently simple and the action is very visual. I don't need to know anything about Japanese culture to get two martial artists coming to blows because one of them is trying to destroy the world. We get fist fights. Those translate across cultures.

Alright, this should be it's own thread. If you want to continue, then continue it in a thread I'm dedicating to it.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Shaddy » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:45 pm

I'm not denying that, I'm just saying that in a multi-billion dollar franchise constantly giving us useless extraneous garbage like Heroes, there's nothing wrong with maybe saying "oh hey they never took the time to show how these magical fiction interpretations of real-world mechanics actually work" when they've released giant-ass pages explaining the time travel in the series that doesn't even know how it's own rules are supposed to work. Again, it's silly, but what resource or demographic is Dragon Ball lacking that doing so would be such a horrible idea?
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ABED » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:57 pm

Shaddy wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:45 pm
I'm not denying that, I'm just saying that in a multi-billion dollar franchise constantly giving us useless extraneous garbage like Heroes, there's nothing wrong with maybe saying "oh hey they never took the time to show how these magical fiction interpretations of real-world mechanics actually work" when they've released giant-ass pages explaining the time travel in the series that doesn't even know how it's own rules are supposed to work. Again, it's silly, but what resource or demographic is Dragon Ball lacking that doing so would be such a horrible idea?
Sorry for allowing this to go further than it should, but if you want to continue this, as I would like to respond to these points, then lets take it to its own thread since it's a discussion that can clearly be its own thread.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Chilly » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:28 pm

What is everyone's thoughts on bagging manga? Do you guys keep your Dragon Ball volumes bagged or no? I've been going back and forth on whether or not to do it. Seems like a hassle though, especially if you read them.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:58 pm

Chilly wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:28 pm
What is everyone's thoughts on bagging manga? Do you guys keep your Dragon Ball volumes bagged or no? I've been going back and forth on whether or not to do it. Seems like a hassle though, especially if you read them.
I mean, would you bag a trade paperback or graphic novel? I hadn't ever really thought of bagging outside of monthlies.

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