Non-thread-worthy discussions

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Civic
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Civic » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:18 pm

I've read that when the DBS: Broly movie came out, there was a statement saying that Gogeta and Vegito were on equal footing regarding power. Is that true? Does anyone have a link/translation about that?

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by TobyS » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:57 am

Civic wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:18 pm
I've read that when the DBS: Broly movie came out, there was a statement saying that Gogeta and Vegito were on equal footing regarding power. Is that true? Does anyone have a link/translation about that?
It's just weird becasue old kai explicity says potara is stronger so:

1. This has been retconned.
2. The booklet is wrong/just means the same general tier.
3. Gogeta is as strong as the last time we saw Veggetto in the Trunks arc, but his fusees were slightly weaker. Coincidentally making FT Vegito = to Broly Gogeta. A hypothetical Broly Vegito would be stronger.

I prefer 2 or 3.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:11 am

TobyS wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:57 am
Civic wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:18 pm
I've read that when the DBS: Broly movie came out, there was a statement saying that Gogeta and Vegito were on equal footing regarding power. Is that true? Does anyone have a link/translation about that?
It's just weird becasue old kai explicity says potara is stronger so:

1. This has been retconned.
2. The booklet is wrong/just means the same general tier.
3. Gogeta is as strong as the last time we saw Veggetto in the Trunks arc, but his fusees were slightly weaker. Coincidentally making FT Vegito = to Broly Gogeta. A hypothetical Broly Vegito would be stronger.

I prefer 2 or 3.
They are equal nowadays yes. It has been retconned. Not only in Super, but also in Heroes, potara has no advantage over the dance.

So I simply refer to Z fusions as pre-retcon. Which means that Super Gogeta in Fusion Reborn was weaker than a hypothetical Super Vegito, but Blue Gogeta in Super is the same as getting Blue Vegito.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:40 am

Both the manga and the summary just have Old Kaioshin to say Potara fusion is better. Which does not necessarily means it is stronger than Metamoru fusion. Consideing Old Kaioshin mentions that Super Buu won't wait for them to do the dance a few panels before, one could say he was referring to that.

There's no logical reason to assume one is stronger than the other when most of the transformations we know are based purely on multiplication. It's A x B. Unless you are a Vegetto fan.

Also, Potara does have an advantage over Metamoru: the former lasts one hour, while the latter thirty minutes.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Thatsgoodeatin » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:51 pm

Alruneia wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:25 pm
Has Toriyama made any direct statements (in interviews or in Daizenshuu or wherever else) about Dragon Ball's status as a gag manga vs an action/story manga? It is well-known that Dragon Ball started out as a more comedic manga that evolved to have more focus on action and storytelling, and Kanzenshuu describes it as starting out as a gag manga as well...
Newbie Guide wrote:Dragon Ball began as a gag manga (comic) by a man named Akira Toriyama in late 1984.
...but are there any proper statements on this, statements about DB's initial status as a gag manga and its evolution into an action manga? How does Toriyama view it?
Sometimes "Source: It's obvious" isn't quite solid enough.
Yea, here's a couple exerpts from the Daizenshuu interview. Granted, while he doesn't go into full detail regarding the Gag thing as part of the series as a whole, he does somewhat address his stance on the matter, in how it influenced the sillier tone of the Buu saga:

Q: That all really took off with Gotenks. There are legends that your editor Takeda-san would crack up each week when he saw the storyboards in the editing department. (laughs)
A: I suppose I am a gag-manga artist after all. (laughs)
But then after all, I’m always thinking of how there are a lot of guys on our side, but only one enemy. If you think about it, isn’t it unfair? (laughs) They can just gang up on him. (laughs)

Q: With the appearance of Goten and young Trunks, it seems as though the number of gags shown between battle scenes and the like increased.
A: It’s also a way of “hiding my weakness”. (laughs) If it gets too dramatic, and there are nothing but serious developments, it feels like my own blood pressure will go up, and I personally don’t like it very much. I believe that comics are entirely for entertainment

Q: I’d imagine that thinking up the battle scenes would be hard each time.
A: Yeah. With the battles as well, I couldn’t have them do the same thing each time after all. It was already good at the beginning when Goku was tiny, but in the second half when the battles started to gradually escalate, I thought up more and more amazing techniques. That’s why it was fun drawing Majin Boo and Gotenks’ fight. I thought up strange techniques in the spirit of a gag manga. (laughs)

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Civic » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:22 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:40 am
Both the manga and the summary just have Old Kaioshin to say Potara fusion is better. Which does not necessarily means it is stronger than Metamoru fusion. Consideing Old Kaioshin mentions that Super Buu won't wait for them to do the dance a few panels before, one could say he was referring to that.

There's no logical reason to assume one is stronger than the other when most of the transformations we know are based purely on multiplication. It's A x B. Unless you are a Vegetto fan.

Also, Potara does have an advantage over Metamoru: the former lasts one hour, while the latter thirty minutes.
Yeah true. I always thought Potara should be stronger since they're of the gods, but I guess SSJ3 outclassed anything the Kais were capable of and SSJ3 isn't divine.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by OhHiRenan » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:47 pm

Scenario: Goku doesn't train his tail enough for the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai and Kuririn ends up fighting Tenshinhan.

Given Ten's at least spoken with Muten Roshi by this point, does he still reform? Or was Goku that final push he needed?
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Sadala Elite » Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:56 pm

TobyS wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:57 am
Civic wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:18 pm
I've read that when the DBS: Broly movie came out, there was a statement saying that Gogeta and Vegito were on equal footing regarding power. Is that true? Does anyone have a link/translation about that?
It's just weird becasue old kai explicity says potara is stronger so:

1. This has been retconned.
2. The booklet is wrong/just means the same general tier.
3. Gogeta is as strong as the last time we saw Veggetto in the Trunks arc, but his fusees were slightly weaker. Coincidentally making FT Vegito = to Broly Gogeta. A hypothetical Broly Vegito would be stronger.

I prefer 2 or 3.
There's no way Broly film Gogeta is only as strong as Black arc Vegito. Both Goku & Vegeta independently surpassed Black arc Vegito halfway into the ToP.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:21 pm

Aaaaaaaaaaaalllllllright. So.

This comes from the 2019 #2 issue of Weekly Shonen Jump, released 10 December 2018 (so yes, mere days before the Broly film hit theaters in Japan). There's a little blurb about the characters, then some comments, and some other general promotional stuffage.

What people cling to here is:
Popular characters from the Dragon Ball world as added to the official history1 by Akira Toriyama-sensei‘s hand!!!

If “Vegetto” is born from the Potara, then Fusion gives birth to “Gogeta”!! Two equally-matched2 ultimate trump cards!! What’s more, in this movie Gogeta transforms into Super Saiyan and even Super Saiyan Blue!! Go to the theater to experience this stupendous power for yourselves!! By the way, Gogeta doesn’t appear in the original Dragon Ball manga; like Broli, he’s a movie-only character!! In other words, original author Toriyama-sensei‘s rewriting is an attempt3 at adding Broli and Gogeta to the Dragon Ball official history!!
Those numbers are superscript notations for notes on our unfinished translation page, in which we state:
1 The phrase translated here is 正史 (seishi), literally meaning “authentic” or “official” or “true history”; this same phrasing was used in a 2012 Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods press release. We have gone with “official history” here to match said previous translation; alternatively, this could be and has been translated as “canon”.

2 いずれ劣らぬ (izure-otoranu), literally “neither inferior (to the other)

3 The word translated here as “attempt” is 試み (kokoromi), which could also be translated as “trial” or “experiment”. What is implied here is not that Toriyama tried and failed to add these guys to the “canon” or “official history”, but rather that this was a test run and they may do more of this in future.
Anyway, here's a photo of the page in question (it's a two-page spread in the issue):

Image
:: [| Mike "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu - Co-Founder/Administrator, Podcast Host, News Manager (note: our "job" titles are arbitrary and meaningless) |] ::
:: [| Website: January 1998 |] :: [| Podcast: November 2005 |] :: [| Fusion: April 2012 |] :: [| Wiki: 20XX |] ::

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by ZeroNeonix » Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:58 pm

I don't think it really matters that much which fusion is stronger. They're both OP by nature. I mean, Vegito was kicking Super Buu's butt in normal form, while Goku doubted his own ability to match Super Buu as Super Saiyan 3. I don't think we're ever going to be in a situation where Goku and Vegeta will say, "Hey, do you think we should become Gogeta?" "No way! The Fusion Dance isn't good enough! We have to become Vegito instead!"

Now that we know that Vegito has a time limit, the differences between him and Gogeta have become especially small. The main difference now is just their clothing.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Civic » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:52 pm

True, but it takes away the uniqueness of each form which I dislike. Fusion Dance could be performed by anyone (with enough practice) and so I feel should be the weaker of the two, since the Potara are earrings only worn by the Kais and the odds of being able to use them would be slim to none. Of course you could argue the Fusion Dance is harder to perform than just putting on an earring and so might not necessarily be weaker, but I just liked the idea that one form was weaker but more convenient, while the other stronger but harder to access.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Noah » Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:11 pm

You know considering we're not getting any (animated) content, they could use this time to provide us a guide.

Like how Z had Daizenshuu, GT, the Perfect Files... I don't know something that could explain the mess that is Super anime, I sure would be interested on it.


OhHiRenan wrote:
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I'm so sick of Goku's Turtle School Gi and Vegeta's Cell arc armor. Their RoF redesigns were a step in the right direction and I'll never forgive the injustice they were done.
At this point is beating a dead horse, but I always agree with this thought. It's infuriating how a new series still relied on characters using their outfits from the past for NoStAlGiA. RoF redesigns should have sticked for the marjority of Super.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Locust » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:47 am

7th of July is the 30th anniversary of the release of Tree Of Might, which coincidentally falls on the same day as Tanabata!

Since I can't go out and celebrate Tanabata because of the pandemic, I will probably just re-watch Tree Of Might orz
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:22 am

So does anyone else hate Moro's transformed state?

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:32 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:01 am
. I'm honestly surprised Bulma was allowed to keep her new look and wasn't switched back to her Buu/BOG look.
Bulma's look is constantly changing anyway, so that's probably why they allowed it.

Though I dunno why her hair is blue now and not turquoise.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Locust » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:50 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:22 am
So does anyone else hate Moro's transformed state?
You're not alone - it's exceedingly boring
The more animalistic form wasn't groundbreaking, but it was a hell of a lot better than "Humanoid With Goat Horns" form
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by OhHiRenan » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:41 am

A transformation has never made me lose interest in a villain faster than Moro's most recent.
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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:58 pm

Locust wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:50 am
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:22 am
So does anyone else hate Moro's transformed state?
You're not alone - it's exceedingly boring
The more animalistic form wasn't groundbreaking, but it was a hell of a lot better than "Humanoid With Goat Horns" form
I've seen some people compare it to Perfect Cell being more human-looking in comparison. I'm like "yes, but Perfect Cell looks awesome! Moro looks plain!"

Animalistic Goat Moro, I like a lot. It reminds me of the Capra Demon from Dark Souls.

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:46 am

Being so close to the EoZ, I wish we had Goku and Vegeta wearing their clothes from that chapter. Not that the Galactic Patrol logo addition was bad, at least they tried to change something, but still I wonder if I'll ever see those outfits on stage.

Maybe if the manga continues?

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Re: Non-thread-worthy discussions

Post by Xeogran » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:02 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:22 am
So does anyone else hate Moro's transformed state?
Opposite, I love it.

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