Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

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Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by precita » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:30 am

You know I can't help but miss how Goku's personality was in the Buu arc, especially going from it to Super. Goku had this "I'm retired" type feel to him in the Buu arc, where even though he enjoyed fighting he was more than willing to step down and let the kids handle the problems. He wanted the younger generation to take over and was so much more understanding of Gohan and the others when he met them again.

Goku wanting Goten/Trunks and later Gohan to fight and finish off Buu and actually willing to step aside and not "test his strength" against the new transformed Buu like a cocky fool like the Super version of him would. In the Buu arc, Goku only stepped back into the action when he was forced to because the kids failed, and even then he was more than willing to work with Vegeta for Fusion, then the final Spirit Bomb, etc.

Even during the fight with Majin Vegeta you could tell Goku was more worried about Buu hatching than "having a great battle" with Vegeta for the first time in years. If this was the Super version Goku would be more than happy to continue fighting Majin Vegeta even with Buu hatching rather than stopping like he did. I also love what we saw of EOZ Goku with him being a grandpa to Pan and wanting to train Uub.

It really felt like Goku finally developed as a character by the end of the Buu arc. Almost a fitting end to what he had become. Super really undoes all that completely.

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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by SSJ Human » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:14 am

I'd argue the roots for that version begin in the Cell saga. When before that did he express an interest in stepping down or having someone else take the lead? Never.

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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:40 am

It's funny because many would argue that Boo arc Goku is the worst version of his character. Here's where I can see their side of things:

You talk about Goku being concerned about Boo hatching more than having a good fight with Vegeta. I'm not so sure about that. If Goku really wanted to end the fight, he'd turn into Super Saiyan 3 and spank Vegeta like a newborn baby before heading over to destroy Babidi, Dabura, or Boo's egg.

Furthermore, it does seem that Goku put the Earth and its heroes through a lot of grief. Goku tells Piccolo that he can't bet fat Boo. Then against Kid Boo, Goku reveals that he could have. While I see your point of things, Goku could've avoided all of that destruction and suffering at Boo's hands if he just ended things.

While I do like that Goku wanted to essentially throw his kids into the pool to see if they'd sink or swim, the fact is that he was a little too quick to decide to not kill Boo. He could've saved his wife, both of his sons, and all of his friends and family had he just finished things early.

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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by sintzu » Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:31 am

precita wrote:It really felt like Goku finally developed as a character by the end of the Buu arc. Almost a fitting end to what he had become. Super really undoes all that completely.
According to Super's fanboys, Goku hasn't changed one bit.
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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:04 am

sintzu wrote:According to Super's fanboys, Goku hasn't changed one bit.
While I will admit there are viewers who either don't admit or don't care about a change in his personality, there's no need to take a derogatory attitude about it. There are other ways to say what you're trying to say, while being more respectful to your fellow members and fans.
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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by sintzu » Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:08 am

TheDevilsCorpse wrote: While I agree with your statement that there are viewers out there who don't admit to a change in personality, there's no need to take a derogatory attitude about it.
Congratulations on the upgrade. :clap: :thumbup:

Alright, next time I'll think of a better way of saying it.
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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by 90sDBZ » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:59 am

The only thing that seems weird about him wanting to "step down" is the fact that he's still very young. When you consider that his body didn't age while he was dead, he'd only be around 30 physically in the Buu saga.

Maybe current Goku is having a midlife crisis or something.

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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by sintzu » Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:31 am

90sDBZ wrote:Maybe current Goku is having a midlife crisis or something.
He's being handled by writers who don't think twice about what they write and how it lines up with previous material.
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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by Freeza Heika » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:41 am

I would say that at the end of the Cell arc and through most of the Boo arc, Goku was trying to come to grips with 2 ideas.

A. That he attracts danger
and
B. That he will die someday and not come back

But in the Boo arc, I think he comes to realize that danger keeps coming, no matter what, and he almost starts to realize in a not-break-the-4th-wall way that he is the main character and is still going to be around a long time. i think that is why we see a reversion in Super to more how he acted on Namek and earlier.
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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:16 am

You talk about Goku being concerned about Boo hatching more than having a good fight with Vegeta. I'm not so sure about that. If Goku really wanted to end the fight, he'd turn into Super Saiyan 3 and spank Vegeta like a newborn baby before heading over to destroy Babidi, Dabura, or Boo's egg.
He didn't have a good fight, he was holding back, and oh yeah, Super Saiyan 3 was a huge retcon.
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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:36 am

ABED wrote:
You talk about Goku being concerned about Boo hatching more than having a good fight with Vegeta. I'm not so sure about that. If Goku really wanted to end the fight, he'd turn into Super Saiyan 3 and spank Vegeta like a newborn baby before heading over to destroy Babidi, Dabura, or Boo's egg.
He didn't have a good fight, he was holding back, and oh yeah, Super Saiyan 3 was a huge retcon.
Is it a fact that Super Saiyan 3 was a retcon? And regardless, that just means that Goku's character was "retconned" to have been toying with Vegeta.

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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by xXInfinite026Xx » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:24 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:
ABED wrote:
You talk about Goku being concerned about Boo hatching more than having a good fight with Vegeta. I'm not so sure about that. If Goku really wanted to end the fight, he'd turn into Super Saiyan 3 and spank Vegeta like a newborn baby before heading over to destroy Babidi, Dabura, or Boo's egg.
He didn't have a good fight, he was holding back, and oh yeah, Super Saiyan 3 was a huge retcon.
Is it a fact that Super Saiyan 3 was a retcon? And regardless, that just means that Goku's character was "retconned" to have been toying with Vegeta.
I've always viewed it a little differently. Vegeta's pride was shattered when he figured no matter how hard he trained, he would never best Goku, which is why he borrowed Babidi's magic. Goku only considered using the SSJ3 form against Buu when he felt he had no other chance of winning. Seeing as it uses up precious time he has on Earth and was on an even playing field with Vegeta, I feel Goku was trying to stop Vegeta in a less conventional way; by convincing him to care about his family and fight the common enemy again. He wasn't thinking about besting Vegeta strength wise as it would not only shatter his pride once again, but also would sustain him on a dark path to further his strength and forget about everything else. Now whether or not is was a right decision is up for debate, but I figured Goku was using his head for once despite that it lead to Buu's hatching. I surely didn't feel he was "toying" with Vegeta, he seemed to give it everything he had without resorting to the risk of powering to SSJ3 and ruining his attempts to bring him back.
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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:29 am

Is it a fact that Super Saiyan 3 was a retcon? And regardless, that just means that Goku's character was "retconned" to have been toying with Vegeta.
No, but we know Toriyama writes by the seat of his pants and Goku's not the type to just toy with Vegeta. He's made reckless decisions in the past but he never done so without the intention of fighting the big bad. And he tells Piccolo that he couldn't beat Majin Buu even if he tried. Later on I think he says that he could have beaten Buu. Why would he lie to Piccolo? The most reasonable explanation is that Toriyama came up with Super Saiyan 3 AFTER Goku fought Vegeta.
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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:05 am

xXInfinite026Xx wrote: I've always viewed it a little differently. Vegeta's pride was shattered when he figured no matter how hard he trained, he would never best Goku, which is why he borrowed Babidi's magic. Goku only considered using the SSJ3 form against Buu when he felt he had no other chance of winning. Seeing as it uses up precious time he has on Earth and was on an even playing field with Vegeta, I feel Goku was trying to stop Vegeta in a less conventional way; by convincing him to care about his family and fight the common enemy again. He wasn't thinking about besting Vegeta strength wise as it would not only shatter his pride once again, but also would sustain him on a dark path to further his strength and forget about everything else. Now whether or not is was a right decision is up for debate, but I figured Goku was using his head for once despite that it lead to Buu's hatching. I surely didn't feel he was "toying" with Vegeta, he seemed to give it everything he had without resorting to the risk of powering to SSJ3 and ruining his attempts to bring him back.
I see your point. I'm just pointing out the flip side. We are basically told that Goku was trying to do just that while sparing Vegeta's feelings, but it's kind of a negligent move on Goku's part.

ABED wrote: No, but we know Toriyama writes by the seat of his pants and Goku's not the type to just toy with Vegeta. He's made reckless decisions in the past but he never done so without the intention of fighting the big bad. And he tells Piccolo that he couldn't beat Majin Buu even if he tried. Later on I think he says that he could have beaten Buu. Why would he lie to Piccolo? The most reasonable explanation is that Toriyama came up with Super Saiyan 3 AFTER Goku fought Vegeta.
But so what? And Freeza destroying planet Vegeta was thought up after Raditz tells Goku that planet Vegeta was destroyed by an asteroid, but we don't write off Freeza's involvement as a "retcon." Is it just convenient to say "Well it wasn't thought of at the time" to some areas but not others? Super Saiyan was also not thought of until a certain point in the series, but we don't scoff at its existence and say "Well, that was a retcon." Why do you choose to do it in regard to Goku's behavior? If it was a retcon, as I said, it retconned Goku's personality to that of a guy who was toying with Vegeta and who lied to Piccolo. Besides, an explanation for why he lied to Piccolo was that he knew he was about to leave forever and he wanted the kids to be the heroes (I guess that's retconned too), so it kind of makes sense that Goku would lie to Piccolo instead of saying, "Yeah, I could've killed him but... ehh, let the kids do it.. If they can!" Sure he admits that he could've defeated fat Boo later on, but at least by that point he was willing to actually do it as opposed to when he talked about it with Piccolo.

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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by ABED » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:25 am

But so what? And Freeza destroying planet Vegeta was thought up after Raditz tells Goku that planet Vegeta was destroyed by an asteroid, but we don't write off Freeza's involvement as a "retcon."
Most people understand that it was a retcon, but it doesn't contradict anyone's character. THAT is the difference. Kaio-sama isn't all knowing and Freeza wanted to keep Vegeta obedient as he thought he would be valuable to his enterprise, so the twist works in universe without contradicting characterizations. None of the Saiyans witnessed Vegeta's destruction. They heard it second hand.
an explanation for why he lied to Piccolo was that he knew he was about to leave forever and he wanted the kids to be the heroes
Yes, and Goku is the one explicitly gives just that explanation to Piccolo before he leaves. He tells Piccolo flat out that even if he could beat Buu, he shouldn't. The living are the one's who should take care of problems in the living world. Besides, when has Goku lied like that?
We are basically told that Goku was trying to do just that while sparing Vegeta's feelings
When has Goku done something like that before?
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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by sintzu » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:35 am

ABED wrote:When has Goku done something like that before?
He hasn't seen anyone for 7 years and probably became friends with a lot of new people in the afterlife so maybe he just changed a bit.

Ssj3 limited what little time he had to stay on earth so that's another reason he didn't use it against Vegeta and in terms of Buu, he didn't see or sense Vegeta's fight so maybe he thought that Ssj2 wouldn't be enough to hold him off.
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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:37 pm

Freeza Heika wrote:I would say that at the end of the Cell arc and through most of the Boo arc, Goku was trying to come to grips with 2 ideas.

A. That he attracts danger
and
B. That he will die someday and not come back

But in the Boo arc, I think he comes to realize that danger keeps coming, no matter what, and he almost starts to realize in a not-break-the-4th-wall way that he is the main character and is still going to be around a long time. i think that is why we see a reversion in Super to more how he acted on Namek and earlier.
Yeah he left his sons and the living to deal with the problem yet he still ended up saving the day. Again. Plus he is alive post Buu. Goku acting like how he does in Super is how I'd expect him to act post Buu especially now with all the God stuff.

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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by Marco Polo » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:48 pm

Goku was dead for most of the Buu saga. That's why he wanted the people who were actually alive to take over.

I think he changed his mind about that due to the fact that he got revived, made friends with all the gods, and can freely teleport from the living world to the afterlife whenever he can. Now he knows he can continue to do whatever he wants to do without having to care about making way for the next generation.

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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:59 pm

To me GT was when Goku's character was at its best.

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Re: Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

Post by TheGreatness25 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:29 pm

ABED wrote:Most people understand that it was a retcon, but it doesn't contradict anyone's character. THAT is the difference.

So you're saying that if a retcon changes someone's character, we should just say, "Well it's a retcon" each time? We're just going to ignore what it did to the character? Hey, guess what, if it changes the character, it's a bad retcon... but that doesn't change the fact that the character proceeded in such a way. If we're watching Dragon Ball Z and we're really into it, we can't start going, "Oh, well that's different... probably a retcon." No, you keep going on with the story. So in the story, that's what happened with Goku's character. If you're watching an episode of Friends and you see that suddenly in one episode, Joey bangs Monica, you can't say "Well that's uncharacteristic... The writer probably had a weird day." No, you go "OH MY GOD!" or whatever your reaction would be.

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