Do you like other battle shounen, and how do you feel they stack up to Dragon Ball?

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball is really good for what makes it unique. Toriyama Akira is a unique, perverted and nuanced man, and it comes through in his creations. No other comic has come quite as close to being such a refreshing reflection of its author. I think the only series I've read that has really felt like it is has had that same confidence as Dragon Ball is Bleach by Kubo Tite. Bleach consistently feels as if Kubo isn't worried about pandering or fulfilling others. Kubo draws as much as he wants and writes as much as he wants. His ebb and flow are all dictated not by fitting into a weekly magazine, but fitting within his own ideas. In that sense, even Dragon Ball felt like it was more tightly structured by Torishima and Kondou.

Naruto is another good one, relying on and then breaking away from shounen magazines tropes. The climax of Part I used transformations but for much of Part II transformations were nowhere to be seen. From there the series began relying more and more on questions of good, evil, justice and vengeance to be the dramatic drive of the work. Unlike Dragon Ball, Naruto truly felt as if it was growing up with its audience over the years. In other words, Kishimoto Masashi changed while Toriyama Akira remained the same. Such is, however, simply in Toriyama's nature. He was a complete person long before Dragon Ball. Torishima simply remolded him into a manga-and-money-making-machine.

[kinisking]

Dragon Ball is really good for what makes it unique. Toriyama Akira is a unique, perverted and nuanced man, and it comes through in his creations. No other comic has come quite as close to being such a refreshing reflection of its author. I think the only series I've read that has really felt like it is has had that same confidence as Dragon Ball is Bleach by Kubo Tite. Bleach consistently feels as if Kubo isn't worried about pandering or fulfilling others. Kubo draws as much as he wants and writes as much as he wants. His ebb and flow are all dictated not by fitting into a weekly magazine, but fitting within his own ideas. In that sense, even Dragon Ball felt like it was more tightly structured by Torishima and Kondou.

Naruto is another good one, relying on and then breaking away from shounen magazines tropes. The climax of Part I used transformations but for much of Part II transformations were nowhere to be seen. From there the series began relying more and more on questions of good, evil, justice and vengeance to be the dramatic drive of the work. Unlike Dragon Ball, Naruto truly felt as if it was growing up with its audience over the years. In other words, Kishimoto Masashi changed while Toriyama Akira remained the same. Such is, however, simply in Toriyama's nature. He was a complete person long before Dragon Ball. Torishima simply remolded him into a manga-and-money-making-machine.

I thought this was a good read! Really in depth analysis.

[JulieYBM]

The strength of Japanese comics is proper storytelling. They don't try to make you guess where you should not need to guess. They're very easy to read, thus very easy to understand and very easy to enjoy.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

One of the reasons I don't like other battle shonen -- as an adult fan of Dragon Ball -- is because they lack its singular focus on whimsy. Or, they seem to take themselves seriously enough to want to be thematically relevant (which nine times out of ten means painfully thematically transparent). No one could accuse One Piece of not being whimsical, really, but rather than seeming to exist solely for the amusement of its author, my impression is that it constantly aims for -- rather shallow -- thematic relevance.

While I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "thematically relevant", this is basically the reason why I can like bits of Naruto but am far from loving it. The seriousness and sentimentality suggest it wants to be something more mature, but the emphasis of fighting and cool moves scream "kids' show". Is this kind of what you meant?




I haven't seen very much of One Piece and Bleach, but judging by their posts, some users seem to have a similar problem with them too.

[Cipher]

While I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "thematically relevant", this is basically the reason why I can like bits of Naruto but am far from loving it. The seriousness and sentimentality suggest it wants to be something more mature, but the emphasis of fighting and cool moves scream "kids' show". Is this kind of what you meant?

I was struggling to find the correct way to express it given the material, but I think I was going for, "too focused on thematic transparency." Seriousness, sentimentality, or several other nouns might better describe it. For me, the result is a series that's too focused on its chosen themes to enjoy for raw absurdity, but which chooses to express things that are too bland, and too blandly expressed (let's go, sentimental monologues about jealousy and friendship) to be interesting.

That is absolutely fine for kids, by the way, as long as it and similar stories don't continue to be the only fiction they enjoy into adulthood.

One Piece is probably less guilty of it, but not completely removed. Bear in mind this is only coming from my reading the first several tankobon as a middle-schooler and getting the cursory exposure you do over the years as a curious Dragon Ball fan on the internet, so I'm being a huge Judgy Judy. I just get the feeling it employs some degree more on-the-nose sentimental monologues within climactic moments. Which, for me, as an adult reader, is some degree too much in this type of story.

[sintzu]

One thing that Z has done better than every other anime is stand the test of time, no other anime from any genre has managed to stay as relevant as Z has after its ending 25 years later.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I was struggling to find the correct way to express it given the material, but I think I was going for, "too focused on thematic transparency." Seriousness, sentimentality, or several other nouns might better describe it. For me, the result is a series that's too focused on its chosen themes to enjoy for raw absurdity, but which chooses to express things that are too bland, and too blandly expressed (let's go, sentimental monologues about jealousy and friendship) to be interesting.

That is absolutely fine for kids, by the way, as long as it and similar stories don't continue to be the only thing they enjoy into adulthood.

One Piece is probably less guilty of it, but not completely removed. Bear in mind this is just coming from my reading the first several tankobon as a middle-schooler and getting the cursory exposure you do over the years as a curious Dragon Ball fan on the internet, so I'm being a huge Judgy Judy. I just get the feeling it employs some degree more of on-the-nose sentimental monologues within climactic moments. Which, for me, as an adult reader, is some degree too much in this type of story.

Right, totally agree. Thanks for clearing that up. My experience with One Piece is pretty similar to yours as well.

[ABED]

While I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "thematically relevant", this is basically the reason why I can like bits of Naruto but am far from loving it. The seriousness and sentimentality suggest it wants to be something more mature, but the emphasis of fighting and cool moves scream "kids' show". Is this kind of what you meant?

I was struggling to find the correct way to express it given the material, but I think I was going for, "too focused on thematic transparency." Seriousness, sentimentality, or several other nouns might better describe it. For me, the result is a series that's too focused on its chosen themes to enjoy for raw absurdity, but which chooses to express things that are too bland, and too blandly expressed (let's go, sentimental monologues about jealousy and friendship) to be interesting.

That is absolutely fine for kids, by the way, as long as it and similar stories don't continue to be the only fiction they enjoy into adulthood.

One Piece is probably less guilty of it, but not completely removed. Bear in mind this is only coming from my reading the first several tankobon as a middle-schooler and getting the cursory exposure you do over the years as a curious Dragon Ball fan on the internet, so I'm being a huge Judgy Judy. I just get the feeling it employs some degree more on-the-nose sentimental monologues within climactic moments. Which, for me, as an adult reader, is some degree too much in this type of story.

Complete disagree. Even if something is a tad clumsy in execution, if there's a heart and a genuine attempt to give it some earnestness or sentiment, then all other thing being equal, I prefer it. If it's all too whimsical then I don't think I could invest enough to care.

And you at least one other board member constantly post comments like your second paragraph. Why do you care if that is the only fiction they enjoy?

[Android 50]

I think JoJo, Hunter X Hunter, Rerouni Kenshin and Gintama easily surpass DB in its battle department. In Hunter X Hunter and JoJo you have these very creative power systems and abilities the characters come with unlike the beam spam DB turned into and Gintama despite mostly being a gag anime/manga manages to tell a better narrative than DB. Hell even some of the fights in Gintama could give a fight in DB a run for its money. Gintoki vs Housen, Gintoki vs Oboro or Gintoki vs Takasugi comes to mind. Then theirs Rerouni Kenshin where I think the story is more engaging and the fights from the Kyoto arc is on par with the 23rd Budokai arc in DB.

[Cipher]

And you at least one other board member constantly post comments like your second paragraph. Why do you care if that is the only fiction they enjoy?

Woah, there's another one? Is it Kunzait_83, or do I need to make another internet friend?

Anyway, it's because insofar as I believe fiction and art intake is important in expanding and informing your view of the world—and it has to be, at least to some extent—I don't think it's healthy for anyone to limit themselves solely to material so unchallenging.

There's nothing wrong with liking one of the series I mentioned above, by the way, even if they aren't my thing. Or several, as long as you check out more adult stuff as well. That would also apply to content I do like: Like, say, if you only read Akira Toriyama manga—though god help you; I'm not sure anyone could survive on that. But I know I'm not talking about a nonexistent group of people who subsist wholly or largely on shonen fiction—substitute in U.S. superhero comics or whatever else—and I don't think that's stellar. I just want to hand those people a non-genre book or poem or a challenging movie.

P.M. me to talk about books and challenging movies!

[JulieYBM]

Well, what the heck qualifies as adult or mature, though?

[Cipher]

Well, what the heck qualifies as adult or mature, though?

That's a slippery-ass slope, but I'd say having non-genre aspirations and eliciting complex feelings in general. Something capable of either altering worldviews, giving voice to a feeling or idea you thought couldn't be rendered, or putting a microscope lens over patterns in life. Something that has you walking away feeling like there was no other way to communicate the complex emotions or ideas it did. Or like an author was screaming a message too difficult to express without a story attached and, in whatever imperfect way, it reached you.

I think generally stuff that is aimed from the outset at children, or aimed at fitting into a particular genre, has a harder time doing that. At least in a way that would do something really new or challenging for people outside its target audience.

I know I sound like a huge asshole here, but the starting question was basically, "Why is fiction (outside of pure entertainment) important?" So, you know, I guess if we're having that discussion, these are the kinds of places it goes.

If someone wants to get back to comparing Dragon Ball to similar series, by the way, feel free. I don't want to derail the thread, even though I'm all for the conversation.

[ABED]

Being mature doesn't require complexity. Many of the biggest truths are very simple.

[Cipher]

Being mature doesn't require complexity. Many of the biggest truths are very simple.

I think you're misinterpreting my post as saying the goal of adult fiction is to race toward a platonic truth. It's to scream something its author feels.

[ABED]

Being mature doesn't require complexity. Many of the biggest truths are very simple.

I think you're misinterpreting my post as saying the goal of adult fiction is to race toward a platonic truth. It's to scream something its author feels.

And how does that have to do with being adult or mature?