What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

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What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by nickzambuto » Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:48 pm

Why exactly is it a bad thing for Freeza to have returned? Even if it's three, four, even five or six times now, American comic books have great success with recurring villains dozens upon dozens of times. Why are so many Dragon Ball fans against the idea? I really just don't understand it. Isn't Freeza a great character who we love seeing on-screen?

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Marco Polo » Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:54 pm

Because he came and went like a wet fart, and the Resurrection F "arc" had no lasting impact or consequences on the series at all. Even the outfits and designs were rolled back to what they were before it, lol.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:24 pm

It's not a bad idea, it's just that pulling of the concept of a recurring villain can be quite difficult with proper writing. You really need to have a proper plan of how the story will progress, because if you don't, you run the risk of having the villain showing up in the plot and it feeling forced.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Rubens » Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:25 pm

Honestly, if the return of a villain implies such a terrible plot like Revival of F's then it's a bad idea. If they can't deliver a good, convincing story, villains are better off dead.

Edit:
Lord Beerus wrote:It's not a bad idea, it's just that pulling of the concept of a recurring villain can be quite difficult with proper writing. You really need to have a proper plan of how the story will progress, because if you don't, you run the risk of having the villain showing up in the plot and it feeling forced.
Pretty much that.
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Doctor. » Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:27 pm

There's no problem with the concept. I don't think anyone has a problem with the concept. I don't see how it's hard to understand that the hate comes from the execution, not the idea. Every time Freeza comes back, he's humiliated and his status as Dragon Ball's most threatening and best villain diminishes even more. Fukkatsu no F was a terrible film, not because Freeza came back, but precisely because of the way the character was treated.
Last edited by Doctor. on Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:38 pm

Because the execution thus far has been pretty bad. The idea isn't, as you said, plenty of other stories find interesting ways to bring back a villain and tell more stories with them, comic books live off this. The reason why Freeza's returns are used as example of why it can't work in DB comes from the fact every one of his returns is a steaming pile of shit. With a villain like the Joker, you've got ideas like him constantly destroying his psyche every time Batman beats him then he rebuilds himself into a completely new version of himself to keep Batman on the ropes. In response to this, Batman has gone so far as to create backup personalities inside his own mind to fathom the chasm of insanity that is the Joker's mind so he can fight him.

What was Toriyama's earth shattering idea for Resurrection F? Bring back Freeza with a shitty recolor form and the same mother fucking, Christ punching, puppy slaying flaws power and personality wise as the last time in a boring as shit rematch with Goku. Under a good writer, you'd have Freeza look back at his mistakes, have him learn from them and use this as a jumping off point for *le gasp!* a fucking character arc that isn't a villain turning into a good guy but a better villain! Or what we call in caveman speak: an original idea!
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by dbgtFO » Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:41 pm

Marco Polo wrote:Because he came and went like a wet fart, and the Resurrection F "arc" had no lasting impact or consequences on the series at all. Even the outfits and designs were rolled back to what they were before it, lol.
Doctor. wrote:There's no problem with the concept. I don't think anyone has a problem with the concept. I don't see how it's hard to understand that the hate comes from the execution, not the idea. Every time Freeza comes back, he's humiliates and his status as Dragon Ball's most threatening and best villain diminishes even more. Fukkatsu no F was a terrible film, not because Freeza came back, but precisely because of the way the character was treated.
Agreed with this.
I wanted there to be more in Res [F], instead of the self-contained mess we got. Since Toriyama wrote for a movie, he probably wasn't confident to have the movie have an open ending with Freeza surviving and it setting the tone for a future meeting, but I really wanted that to be done in Super instead. Unfortunately that didn't happen there either and it's clear they don't want Freeza around any longer.
Ideally the arcs wouldn't just be mostly standalone and instead there would be consequences and unresolved plot threads, that would eventually all be resolved in the final arc of the first part of Super

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:00 pm

What's so bad about Freeza constantly returning is because we -- I believe whether we realize it or not -- feel that he was meant to be dead and this is just a lazy and pathetic attempt to have a villain. Freeza was supposed to be dead. He was supposed to be dead on Namek. But he returned, fine. That's okay. Trunks definitely killed him. Then he returned in GT. Then he returned in Resurrection F. I think that it's seen as lazy, unimaginative, not creative, and a desperate attempt to have the fans feel something for the upcoming battle. Rather than create a new villain, they went back to the well to fish out a villain that was once great and powerful, only to reduce him to a joke.

I think it's mainly because we felt that he was supposed to be gone for good. We didn't have this issue with Vegeta. Vegeta came to Earth and was teased at being a villain in the next arc... and then there was a possibility for him to be a villain down the line. We had no problem with Majin Vegeta. Well, I think that's because unlike Freeza, we never had the feeling that he was meant to stay dead.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:05 pm

Because Dragon Ball is a very plot-driven story so shit gonna keep progressing. When Toriyama did it with Freeza it reflected on his character poorly as Goku and Vegeta both easily coulda finished him off if they didn't fuck around but even without them there's still Beerus and Whis. Freeza also came off as an idiot as he apparently learned nothing from his fight with Goku. Heck, Cell knew not to fuck around with Gohan after his zenkai and wanted him dead quick.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:10 pm

I'd like to pose a question, if Freeza's return in F was done simply to get people easily invested due to their past history with him, isn't that the exactly what was done with Future Trunks except in the protagonist role?
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Pantalones » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:41 pm

"Well, American comics do it this way!" isn't exactly a very good argument for repeated return appearances by Freeza, y'know.

Part of the reason I (and I'm probably not the only one here) like Dragonball/Z/etc. and other anime series is how they don't follow the same patterns as American comics -- there's usually one author for the whole series rather than constant hand-offs from one to the next, for example, and there's usually the feeling that a series is one "whole" story rather than a never-ending chain of new ones awkwardly slapped together, sometimes completely different and unrelated to each other, peppered with reboots that adjust the timeframe of the series to modern-day and clear out lingering plotholes every decade or so. That's part of the reason I don't really follow American comics and focus more on the movies and TV adaptions when I want to see superheroes, now that I think about it -- each superhero movie series (or TV series) is pretty much its own self-contained thing. When they want a reboot they bring in a different cast, different designs/art style, different show title, etc. to make that clear -- rather than the awkward "whoops, [some insanely powerful villain] did [something] and the universe is being reset by [some cosmic bullshit] now" crossover storylines the comics do, the movie/TV versions generally leave their predecessors alone and just come out with a new series that's not connected to the last one.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by sintzu » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:06 pm

Freeza coming back was a great idea cause of all the history between him and the Saiyans and how important he was in Universe 7 so they could've done a lot with him but instead he was reduced to Goku's punching bag in the movie and Vegeta's in Super with no character development or revelations for any of them.

I guess Vegeta getting to litirally beat him into the ground was worth him coming back one (hopefully last) time.

Another reason has nothing to do with the way he was handled but fans not wanting DB to turn into a comic, what separates manga and comics is manga is an ongoing story that's always building on the lore while comics have been stuck in time for the last 70+ years.

With DB and manga in general, you have an ongoing adventure where there are always new villains and challenges while in comics it's always the same thing over and over again, hero fights villain, puts him/her in jail, villain breaks out, rinse and repeat.
Doctor. wrote:Every time Freeza comes back, he's humiliated and his status as Dragon Ball's most threatening and best villain diminishes even more.
I agree that he didn't do much in the movie but in the arc he was very much the Freeza we knew from Namek in terms of power and threatening presence.

But that wasn't enough cause we got that on Namek so they needed to do more with him and the lore but the didn't which is unfortunate.
Last edited by sintzu on Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:16 pm

Pantalones wrote:"Well, American comics do it this way!" isn't exactly a very good argument for repeated return appearances by Freeza, y'know.

Part of the reason I (and I'm probably not the only one here) like Dragonball/Z/etc. and other anime series is how they don't follow the same patterns as American comics -- there's usually one author for the whole series rather than constant hand-offs from one to the next,
Not always true. Indy comic book publishers usually have one author writing the stories. Todd Mcfarlane has been in control of Spawn for nearly 25 years and Mike Mignola wrote all of Hellboy from 1993 up to until 2016. Personally I feel like Freeza is a iconic villain of the series and Toriyama has not used Freeza for over 20 years. It's not just comic books that use recurring villains, but other franchises too. The Godzilla series always uses Mothra, Rodan, King Ghidorah and MechaGodzilla more than once.
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by sintzu » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:28 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:I'd like to pose a question, if Freeza's return in F was done simply to get people easily invested due to their past history with him, isn't that the exactly what was done with Future Trunks except in the protagonist role?
That's probably why they brought him back as well but unlike RF, there's a lot more going on other than Trunks, you've got Zamasu who's arguably the franchise's best villain and soon another character will take the spotlight so you've got 3 things going on.

Pantalones wrote:Part of the reason I like Dragonball/Z/etc. and other anime series is how there's usually one author for the whole series rather than constant hand-offs from one to the next.
What I hope will happen after Toriyama is done is he'll pick a writer and work with him like what Kishimoto did with the Boruto manga and movie.
Pantalones wrote:A never-ending chain of new ones awkwardly slapped together, sometimes completely different and unrelated to each other, peppered with reboots that adjust the timeframe of the series to modern-day and clear out lingering plotholes every decade or so.
This is why I'm worried about the new Dragon room, I'm not against someone else writing DB but I don't want it to turn into the mess you mentioned above.

We already have Super and GT clashing with each other and I don't want 5 or more other shows doing the same.
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by PelicanDynasty » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:49 pm

I hate the idea because in a story like this you know the good guy is going to win. At best Freeza can hope for a draw where they both die. In a real life combat sport, like boxing, rematches are exciting because the loser can come back and actually win, and they can go back and forth over several fights and create a genuine rivalry. Manny Pacquiao tied Juan Manuel Marquez, then barely beat him, then controversially beat him (I personally think he lost), and then got knocked out in the 4th fight. That type of rivalry can never happen in a show like this, and as such I don't care to see anyone more than once.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by sintzu » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:57 pm

PelicanDynasty wrote:I hate the idea because in a story like this you know the good guy is going to win.
They could've let him win by not having Whis rewind time and forcing Goku and Vegeta (Goku would grab him before the planet blows up) to win the Champa tournament to use the super dragon balls to bring it and everyone else back.

Freeza ? we wouldn't know what happened to him cause Whis said he could breathe in space but on the flip side he was really weak so maybe he died with the planet so they could just leave that open for later.
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by SaiyanZ » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:35 am

Resurrection "F' was a failure on all fronts imo aside from Jaco and Freeza having funny dialog.
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:07 am

Well, I actually liked Resurrection F, but as I've said before a story need to progress or it becomes pointless and nonsensical if its trying to be a narrative(Ash has been 10 for 20 years and lost to lv. 5 Snivy) or pointless and boring if it's a comedy.

As for villains coming back, Freeza's 3 or 4 times is nothing compared to Marvel/DC. where all the heroes and villains have to be, respectively, wimps and incompetent to avoid ever having an effect on the status quo.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Cipher » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:25 am

I was totally fine with "F" as a one-off movie, and as much as I love the Namek arc, I've always enjoyed Freeza being a low-key recurring comedy villain throughout the franchise (Movie 12, extra scenes in Z, GT, now his own movie in a much bigger way, etc.). Rather than diminishing the power of his original arc, I think it's perfectly fitting for his personality and the idea that the main cast has come so far since then. The series is constantly moving forward (or was). When Freeza comes back now, it's always going to be too little, too late. Even when he's the new, most powerful villain they've ever faced, his fate is still to be behind the curve. I certainly wouldn't want him to show up and be a "serious" threat each time, in the vein of American superhero comics; it would run counter to both the series' whimsy and its sense of forward progression. I think that's part of why I got what I wanted out of "F", while so many seem to hate it.

Still, while I do enjoy Freeza's more comical reappearances, and totally could have gone for an extra arc of Freeza being a begrudging team player at the Universe 6 tournament or something like that, I'm not of the opinion that just because a character is fun to see on-screen, they need to show up more often. Frankly, I'm not in favor of fan service dictating the course of a series like that in any way. The only reason characters should receive more or less focus, more or fewer appearances, is because the storyteller holds it necessary for what they want to do.

I don't suspect we'll see Freeza again in the series proper, and that's more than fine.
Hellspawn28 wrote:The Godzilla series always uses Mothra, Rodan, King Ghidorah and MechaGodzilla more than once
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Bullza » Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:20 am

Resurrection F was the best movie made to date. What does it matter if it lacks lasting impact?

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