What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

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ABED
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:59 pm

Now I regret taking the bait.

I don't know why the writers/Toriyama would want to create a recurring villain much less a main one for DB. DB existed just fine for years without resorting to it. Yes, Freeza is a standout, but for any story to remain creatively vibrant, and profitable, they can't rely on nostalgia. As we're seeing, even Star Wars can't.
Last edited by ABED on Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Toxin45
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Toxin45 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:00 pm

ABED wrote:Now I regret taking the bait.

I don't know why the writers/Toriyama would want to create a recurring villain much less a main one for DB. DB existed just fine for years without resorting to it.
They got bored of what you just said and got tired of that so they made Frieza the most recurring villain of the franchise. These days they don't care about what you think so they made Frieza a recurring villain from now on whether you like it or not. Don't compare it to star wars that is just ridiclous. They brought back future trunks and android 17 in it anyway so why not bring back Frieza twice. Granted trunks and 17 aren't villains but still.Time changes dude and also laws of dimisnih returns dosen't exist that was just a concept you made up. Also dude play video games like fighterz or any other dragon ball game to take your mind off it.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:51 am

At this point, I'm only continuing to do this just for the pure hell of it. I have no good excuse honestly.
Toxin45 wrote:Well the revival the f arc was okay and Frieza returning in the tournament of power wasn't wasted he pretty much got what he wanted he got his life back and rebuilds his empire like Frieza but saying having a weird obsession is stupid.
Getting brought back to life and getting his empire back simply resets the whole paradigm right back to where it was when Freeza first entered the series: other than having a new Gold form (the novelty of which is highly suspect at best) Freeza's current status is literally NO different than where it was back in the Bardock special or when he first set foot on Namek. He's still an evil asshole, and he's still in charge of his space empire. He didn't "rebuild" it: it was simply there waiting for him when he returned.
Toxin45 wrote: Also the tournament of power did not poorly used him that sure he may have not usurped the gods like he wanted but he still got his life back as a reward
It almost sounds like you're looking at this through the prism of Freeza being the protagonist of the series; yes he got most of the things that he wanted out of the Tournament (namely a THIRD shot at life, and full command of his armies)... but he's also the BAD GUY. He's not set up as or framed as the protagonist, hell he's not even posited as an anti-hero like Cell arc Vegeta was: these developments aren't supposed to be GOOD things that you as an audience are meant to cheer on and sympathize with.

Freeza's not even a villain protagonist like Bardock was back in his special: where even though he's a cold blooded killer, the narrative is still framed from Bardock's POV where you see the events unfold from his perspective and follow his journey to undoing the future vision he's shown. Nothing about the Tournament of Power is framed from Freeza's perspective: its still ultimately the Z Warriors' fight, theirs' is the POV the story is framed through, they have to recruit Freeza and much of the tension in the story comes from the question "Will Freeza backstab them because he's such a psychotic evil shit?"... a question that gets purposefully played with in the story constantly so its almost always front and center.

Freeza being returned to life and resuming control of his empire are things that happen in the plot yes... but the intended audience response is not supposed to be "Yay! Freeza got what he wanted! He's the man!" Its supposed to be "Oh shit, this murderous nut is back on top, this isn't gonna be good for Goku and co. down the road."
Toxin45 wrote: and your really thing he would be poorly used in the upcoming movie most people outside of this site actually liked Frieza in the tournament of power dude because it helped fans got over his issues in ressurection f and started to like him again.
I never at any point here talked about what fans outside of this site think: my whole original post to you was SOLELY within the context of this site and this community here. I don't particularly care what other fans' outside of this site think about Freeza's handling in Super, because I don't interact with most of those fans on the regular. I'm well aware that Super is generally well received and has its large share of fans: I'm still entitled to disagree with those fans' appraisal of the series' quality, and I've made no secret in other posts around here that I'm aware of Super's largely positive reception and am baffled by it.

And I don't even think that Super is ALTOGETHER bad: its got its share of good elements too and I've given credit to them in plenty of other instances. I just think that the bad aspects are more numerous and fundamental to the point of outweighing the good by quite a lot.
Toxin45 wrote:So what you say is just simply a negative opinion.
Yeah. Just like what you say is simply a positive opinion. The difference being, I'm making it as clear and thought out as I can WHY it is I think the way that I do. You've made countless posts on this topic throughout the forums now saying WHAT you think, but I'm still at such a loss as to WHY it is you think so strongly on this that I felt it needed clarifying: hence why I posted my question to you before in this thread.

That's all that ANY of this shit largely ultimately is: a giant collection of negative and positive opinions on this or that. And both are totally fine, provided people at least be able to clearly and intelligently outline why it is they hold one or the other. A negative or positive opinion doesn't mean much or say anything of substance if it isn't backed up by thought-through reasoning. Just saying effectively "this is cool" or "this sucks" and not much else beyond that is totally pointless and isn't conducive to fun or productive discussion on anything.
Toxin45 wrote:Also stop talking in long sentence
This from the guy that has this in his post:
Toxin45 wrote:Also dragon ball is not a Saturday morning cartoon and you talk way too much toriyama brought Frieza back twice so don't be a negative I am sure toriyama won't screw up Frieza this time and also the reason I believe was to give goku an arch enemy and plus he can train now if the time comes.
I'm breaking up your post piece by piece in order to be even somewhat able to respond to it; but the whole thing was one GIGANTIC paragraph with no breaks of any sort, and almost zero attempt at punctuation and constant run-on sentences. Learn to punctuate and paragraph break before you get on others about their using "long sentences" or "talking too much".

This site allows (and even encourages) long, detailed thoughts: provided that they use actual grammar and sentence structure. In other words, talk as much or as long in each post as you like: just follow the conduct rules with regards to respecting other users, and be sure to type and structure your thoughts cogently and comprehensibly.

And technically these days, Dragon Ball IS literally a Saturday morning cartoon (or a Sunday one, forget which): back in its original run in Japan it was on in primetime (in the evenings) on a weekday, where it could get away with much more risque content. These days though, with both Kai and now Super, its been on the weekend early in the morning. A timeslot which has notably impacted its content.

I'm getting somewhat pedantic there. What I mean when I say "Saturday morning cartoon" is in terms of storytelling devices that such types of shows often use that Dragon Ball has generally always averted from before. One of those being a constant, recurring, repetitive villain who constantly shows up to be a pain in the heroes' ass, but is ultimately always foiled with little real danger or trouble.

Freeza seems poised to turn into that, if Super's handling of him so far is any indication: I'd like for Dragon Ball to resemble those kinds of shows (G.I. Joe, Transformers, Pokemon, the various TMNT cartoons, etc.) as little as possible in terms of its storytelling techniques and plot developments.

Dragon Ball stood out so much in the first place because of how UNLIKE a lot of those types of shows it was. Super hasn't gotten full bore near that, no... but it seems like its edging its way closer there steadily with each arc. That's not good in my view, and I'm personally not in favor of that.
Toxin45 wrote:Also you very wrong on how Frieza was handled in the tournament of power he became more pragmatic and dosen't repeat the same mistakes he did but comparing to a cartoon villain that is just stupid also pilaf gang were team rocket not Frieza so comparing them is irrelevant.
Comparing Team Rocket to Freeza at this point is over the top, I agree: but if Freeza keeps being constantly brought back and defeated over and over and over, he's going to GET to that point eventually and before long. THAT'S where my (and others') concerns are.

And for what its worth, most of Pilaf and his crew's old repeat appearances were anime filler only: he'd only made two appearances total in the original manga.
Toxin45 wrote:Frieza be improved in later years and you being a wary can does nothing I just like Frieza for being a classical evil space emperor.
1) I don't know what this sentence is, but it isn't English. For god's sake, I can only BARELY make heads or tails of this.

2) We have NO idea whether or not Freeza's usage in Super will be "improved upon" in later years or later story arcs. It very well MAY be, and that'd certainly be nice and preferable obviously: but I don't think its warranted to make that kind of positive assumption, given the (largely) predictable and trite way in which Super has unfolded so far.

3) I like Freeza and his evil space emperor shtick too (or rather the specifics inherent to it), but that doesn't mean I think that ANY and all usage of him is inherently a good thing. Freeza as executed in the original manga and anime was fantastic: he's far from 100% foolproof though, and can EASILY be misused and diluted as a character. Which I argue that Super has largely been doing with him so far: and I say that while acknowledging the handful of individual cool moments he's indeed had in there. There's a shot of him in his Toppo fight that's so cool I've almost been tempted to make it my avatar on here a few times.
Toxin45 wrote:It's not really a bad choice once you get used to it
I don't even know what this is supposed to mean. This rationale can be applied to almost ANYTHING. It comes across almost like you're telling people to force themselves to like things that they don't like, just because. Which is absurdly stupid and asinine.
Toxin45 wrote:but simply Turning him into a good guy is really going too far we had enough of villains Turning into heroes and it was getting tiresome with Frieza defying that thing it was okay and it was a nice change of pace
For the record, I'm in NO way advocating that Freeza MUST somehow turn into a good guy. I agree completely: at this point, given how much Dragon Ball has used that "enemies turned friends" device, that using it for Freeza now would just come across as predictable and stale. Plus converting Vegeta was REALLY pushing it enough already. Freeza's actions as a villain are SO utterly monstrous and vile that I simply cannot fathom a believable way in which to convert him to one of the good guys; certainly not a way that wouldn't merit going MUCH deeper into the weeds of characterization than I'd normally credit this series or Toriyama with going at this stage in the game.

So no, provided its not done in such a way that is UNCANNILY mindblowing, I don't at all think that Freeza needs to nor should become a good guy.

HOWEVER... that's DOESN'T mean that his ultimate end point in the Tournament of Power wasn't ridiculously boring and anti-climactic. Because while I don't think that having him go full-on villain-turned-heroic was the way to go... neither do I think was it a smart move to just have end up right smack back at square one with NOTHING different about him from his debut appearance.

I'm all in favor of him staying a villain... just have him develop or change in SOME tangible, substantive way. And no, giving him a Gold recolor form does not remotely cut it in that realm.
Toxin45 wrote:also Frieza did get some character development in that he is more smarter than previous appearances and takes training very seriously.
If this were actually the case, then I'd be HAPPY with his return. But unfortunately we DON'T see this: Freeza's Revival of F training was kept largely off-screen. Not showing it in detail and having it be something cool that challenges and pushes him as a fighter was a HUGE missed opportunity that could've EASILY helped salvage Revival of F and Freeza's return in general. Having him evolve his tactics, taking on serious martial arts training in a manner similar to Goku and the others... THAT would certainly make for a GREAT and legitimately cool change-up and development for Freeza while still keeping him a clear villain.

But unfortunately we're NOT shown this: we're only told about it in passing. Breaking one of the fundamental rules of storytelling: show, don't tell.

Again, this was one of the biggest missed opportunities in all of Super, and its a damn shame.

Freeza makes mostly the same damn mistakes in his return, making it feel boring, pointless, and anti-climactic, and also making Freeza come across as less threatening than before.

The closest thing to genuinely different we get out of Freeza in all of Super is seeing him cooperate and fight side by side as a team with Goku and the Z Warriors... while STILL being villainous and antagonistic towards them in the process. And while that WAS indeed cool for a bit... it ultimately didn't lead to anything for Freeza other than him ending up right back to where he started the whole damn series in the first place. Thus it comes across as more of a cheap gimmick than a legitimately meaningful story development. A COOL gimmick, sure, but one who's novelty wears off almost immediately once you see the narrative dead-end it ultimately ends up leading to.
Toxin45 wrote:also that is simply opinion not a fact by what you said. If they brought back cell I wouldn't mind also ressurection f wasn't perfect I know but seeing Frieza again I didn't mind due to his potential in trading to grow stronger and seeing him again in the tournament improving a little bit I didn't except whis to revive him though so that was a nice suprise.
Again: ALL of this is just opinion. What you, I, and everyone else here are talking about: all 100% across the board opinion. No one is touting their opinions as fact here, except where otherwise noted or backed up by in-series depictions and developments (like Freeza's training being largely alluded to rather than shown in any meaningful way). So the whole "that's just like your opinion man!" thing is a dumb dodge and silly way of trying to shut up the person who disagrees with you. Yes what I'm saying is largely opinion... but so is what YOUR saying mostly opinion as well. The difference is in how well and how substantively we can describe and outline it.

And sorry, but a story dropping the ball but having "the potential to lead to another, better story later on" does not absolve or excuse that story of being a subpar story in itself. IF by some chance a later Super story arc makes excellent use of Freeza and does something balls out fucking awesome with him, then that's fantastic as hell for THAT story... but that does NOT then retroactively make something like Revival of F, by itself, a great story or use of the character simply for re-opening that door. No matter WHAT happens with Freeza down the line; his use and appearances in these storylines is always going to come across, within themselves, as forced and trite in and of themselves rather than organic and developmental.

And of course, simply seeing a character "getting stronger" without anything particularly interesting to go along with it is EXCEEDINGLY uninteresting and stupid. Its one of the reasons why a character like Broli for example is a victim of the very same "law of diminishing returns" that we're all talking about in here: I legitimately like DBZ Movie 8 a lot and Broli within it. Movie 8 has a generally all around fine story, and Broli works as an unhinged, raging bull type of villain in it. But as the character kept getting reused in the two subsequent movies featuring him, he'd gotten dumber and more pointless as the story rationales used to bring him back: Movie 10 is one of the thinnest of all the DBZ movies (which is saying something) and the less said about 11 the better.

But of course, Broli got stronger and stronger each time, so hey, that's supposed to be worth something, right? Yeah, except it isn't: having a character who can simply out-punch the other characters doesn't mean a damn thing if there's nothing ELSE interesting going on with them either. MOST Dragon Ball villain up till now have SOMETHING else interesting to them beyond their raw strength: whether it be in their characterization like Freeza and Vegeta, or their concept like Daimao (or even Garlic Jr. in the movies), or even if its just an interesting and original visual design and manner of fighting like with Majin Boo (and similarly Janemba in the movies)... there's always SOMETHING else to make a good villain worthwhile beyond simply "how much can they bench?"

This is why people have a problem with the whole "Power Level-centric" lens of viewing Dragon Ball: at a certain point, for a lot of fans, it gets to become less about a cool story and interesting and dynamic fights, and more about just mindlessly watching arbitrary, meaningless numbers climb higher just for the sake of it.

My point here being: if NOTHING else interesting or unique gets done with Freeza beyond simply making him stronger and little else, then the story is an abject failure.
Toxin45 wrote:All that said super had it's flaw but it did had it's moments
I totally agree with this statement in itself. The main point where I'd disagree is that I think those flaws vastly outweigh and overshadow those cool moments.
Toxin45 wrote:like people from outside this website wants to see cell again to become rep want like android 17 and Frieza seriously I watched YouTube videos on why cell should return and beerus resurrecting Frieza made some sense that the Frieza force was made up from the various races from universe 7 and being the Emperor was kinda the government of the universe so yeah.
Again: please type more coherently. I can BARELY make sense of what you're saying.

Once more, I could give a crap less what people outside this site think: I'm not talking to those people about DB. I'm talking to people HERE about DB.

Secondly, once again, I could give two shits less which characters "become rep" if there's nothing the least bit interesting being done with them in terms of story or characterization, or even in HOW they're actually fighting: raw Power Level nonsense doesn't mean a squirt to me. 17 is a perfect example of this: yes, he was brought back, and yes he was made VASTLY stronger as a fighter.

BUT... we didn't actually ever get to SEE HOW it is that he got that powerful. We know that he trained... but like with Freeza, simply being told about something doesn't automatically make it a cool story if we don't actually SEE what they went through to get so much more powerful. This is all the more worse an issue since 17 is now supposed to be back as a hero/protagonist: all the more reason why I'd like to know what exactly he's been up to all these years and what's lead him to mellow out so much and take martial arts training so seriously.

It sounds like there's actually a potentially good story in there: too bad Super didn't see fit to let us in on it.

All we DO know know about 17's current status, aside from his park ranger gig, is that he's got a wife and kid now... but we don't even get to so much as see what the fuck they look like never mind what role they played in 17's development. As things currently stand, they're simply ciphers. And that's fucking lame, considering what a MAJOR front-and-center character 17 has turned into in Super.

Yes, 17 gets to kick a ton of ass in the Tournament of Power. That WOULD be totally cool... if I actually were given a reason to give two shits about who 17 now is these days as a character.

Again, simply having the characters get a "Power Level boost" and seeing them crack skulls in doesn't mean much if I don't have even the SLIGHTEST ounce of a thread of story or narrative or character-based foothold to hang onto. Even some of the most MINOR villains and supporting characters in the original series got AT LEAST that much at one point or another, even if it was through little more than some weird personality quirk that made them endearing.

And its not like Super didn't have PLENTY of material already there with 17 to work with to cobble together something even halfway interesting about who he is now, what he's been up to, and how he's changed... it simply doesn't bother, because so much of it is fucking lazy like that.

Freeza's no different whatsoever in this regard: apparently he went through a ton of difficult training, training that he'd never undergone before, and enough of it to find himself a new form (the underwhelming nature of that form being neither here nor there for purposes of this particular point). All of this would be TOTALLY worth an entire movie or story arc ALL ON ITS OWN... but we're NEVER let in on any of it beyond a throwaway mention in dialogue (and I think a super brief glimpse in the recap arc), and it thus comes across as a complete waste of something genuinely different to do with Freeza and a legitimately new light to paint him in..
Toxin45 wrote:Super making Frieza a recurring villain I don't mind it's not the first time look at tao and pilaf gang when they were villains back then now with Frieza being the only unreformed villain in the series alive was kinda a broken streak on reforming villains.
Outside of a throwaway anime filler episode in the Cell arc, Tao Pai Pai came back once. ONCE. And it was for a DAMN specific purpose: to advance and wrap up Tenshinhan's character arc going back to the 22nd Budokai. Tao Pai Pai returning as a cyborg served a clear storytelling purpose, and it was very well executed. After that, he was gone, never to return other than that one random filler ep eons later. It warrants absolutely NO comparison with Freeza's, thus far, 100% pointless return.

As much as it pains me to say this, because once again I actually REALLY LIKE Freeza and considered him easily one of the best villains in all of DB, even Tao Pai Pai was better used in his brief return than Freeza was in Super. At least it actually lead to some sort of payoff/resolution for someone.

And Pilaf, Shu, and Mai, even in their "prime" were NEVER anything remotely close to serious villains: they're throwaway gag characters. Always have been, always will be. They don't warrant comparison with even total nothings like Bojack, never mind a villain with actual gravitas and depth like Freeza.

And yet again, outside of filler, they have a grand total of a whopping TWO fucking appearances in the manga. But with or without the anime filler, they've never been anything beyond joke characters, not actual threats to anyone.
Toxin45 wrote:Even if new arc villains show up Frieza will now play a role in later arcs as the overraching villain of the franchise.
I don't really see why this would be a good thing in and of itself. As ABED kept pointing out, Dragon Ball had gotten by just fine up to Super without ANY overarching villain. Having one doesn't really add anything. If you think it DOES add something, by all means you're plenty welcome and encouraged to explain (hopefully in readable English this time) what that might be.
Toxin45 wrote:Also I don't mind the cell fans wanting cell to return too es ally based on how fighterz would handle it the interactions between past villains and heroes was kinda interesting to say the least.
While I adore the absolute crap out of FighterZ as a fighting game (its head and shoulders my favorite Dragon Ball game ever by a wide margin, with only Advance Adventure and Super DBZ coming anywhere close to it), the story mode is easily the single worst, most useless thing about it. 21's backstory was somewhat interesting and some of the character interactions are fun of course; but beyond that, the story mode was overall cringingly stupid, and the old villains being brought back in the manner that they were was among the dumbest, most pointless things in it. So trotting out the FighterZ story mode as an example of why Super bringing back old villains would be a GOOD thing is hardly a winning comparison.

I liked Cell more than fine in his arc: but unless there's a REALLY compellingly cool reason for it, I certainly don't want him to be brought back just for the sake of having him back. That's all that most of your posts on this topic seem to amount to: you just like Freeza and don't care WHAT gets done with him, just so long as he's on screen and punching people. To hell with having any cool REASON for it that ADDS anything new or fresh to either the DB universe or to Freeza's character: just more of Freeza punching stuff and tossing off pithy one-liners purely for the sake of having more of Freeza punching stuff and delivering pithy one-liners.

And I personally think that that's silly and lame: in large part BECAUSE Freeza was (prior to Super) such a well used, well realized, and memorably compelling villain who deserves MUCH better treatment than that.

In fairness to you though, that seems to be one of the key things binding together both Super as a whole as well as much of the positive fan reaction that its gotten: just being happy to have more Dragon Ball just for the sake of having more Dragon Ball, regardless of whether or not its actually doing anything particularly INVENTIVE or interesting, beyond a stray cool individual character interaction, fight scene, or concept. Which as I've said around here plenty of times before, is just a BAFFLING sentiment to me considering just how goddamned MUCH of Dragon Ball there already was to begin with in its original run. I know that Toei wants to keep this going forever and ever if possible because $$$: but from the fans' perspective, at what point exactly is it ever enough?

I digress though. Freeza and Cell WERE indeed very, very cool and iconic villains: but there's honestly NO particularly good reason that I can see to have them come back. They served their role in their old arcs, and were then done away with so the story could move on ahead to do other new things with other new characters. I was 100% satisfied with their use and their conclusions, as were plenty of other folks, and I've certainly not seen anything particularly compelling added to Freeza's character in all of his Super appearances, beyond a handful of cool interactions with his teammates in the Tournament of Power. Which while nice, hardly makes the whole underwhelming totality of it in any way worth it.

And after Freeza, I don't see much of a different end result that could come about from trotting out Cell now all of a sudden: constantly plumbing the past for old villains to constantly bring back over and over for no real reason other than nostalgia seems like the antithesis of original and unpredictable. And again, Dragon Ball has never had a rotating recurring cast of a rogues gallery before, nor do I see how it would benefit or be improved on from suddenly having one now all of a sudden this long and this many years after the fact. This isn't Batman or Spider-Man, nor do I want it to be like those things. Dragon Ball should just be Dragon Ball.
Toxin45 wrote:So I love all of dragon ball cha attends goku,vegeta,Gohan,etc but I also love the villains king piccolo ,Frieza,cell etc.


Yeah I love all those characters as well: but part of what makes them so lovable though is that the original DB story knew enough when to have those characters' stories actually END once they served their purpose or ran their course. There's an old saying: better to leave the audience wanting more. In other words, when crafting a story or characters, don't have them wear out their welcome.

Again, no matter HOW MUCH you like something, having more of it just for the sake of having more of it without any other good reason is rarely ever a good thing, and usually just leads to most of the original coolness of that thing being deteriorated from overuse and/or misuse.
Toxin45 wrote:Frieza is the face of dragon ball villains in the video games he is the most seen in video game versions
Except 1) no he wasn't. Pretty much ALL of the villains were ALL featured in most of the DB games, save ones that focused on a particular story arc. And the Freeza arc wasn't given a game as the central focus any more often than any of the other arcs were. Gekishin Freeza, Goku Gekitoden, Super Gokuden 2, Legend of the Super Saiya, the original DBZ arcade game, and Legacy of Goku 1, were all the DBZ games I can possibly think of where either the Freeza arc was the main/sole focus or Freeza the main ending baddie.

For all those though, you also had Attack of the Saiyans (Saiya-jin arc/Nappa and Vegeta), Ressen Jinzoningen (Artificial Humans and Cell), Kkyoshu! Saiya-jin (Saiya-jin arc/Vegeta and Nappa again), Goku Hishoden (Saiya-jin arc/Nappa and Vegeta yet again), Legacy of Goku 2 and Buu's Fury (Cell and Boo arcs respectively), Budokai 1 (Saiya-jin through Cell arcs), Gekito Tenkaichi Budokai (Saiya-jin through Cell again), all the OTHER Budokai games (encompassing all of DBZ and some of GT and original DB to boot), the whole Butouden series, Buyuu Retsuden, and Hyper Dimension (which either focus on just the Cell arc, the Boo arc, or ALL of Z as a whole), Ultimate Battle 22, (all of Z), DBZ Legends (all of Z again), Greatest Son Goku Legends (Tao Pai Pai through Cell), Final Bout (mostly GT with bits of Z throughout all of its main arcs sprinkled in), Super Battle (Cell arc), Super Sonic Warriors 1 and 2 (all of Z), Taiketsu (all of Z), Sagas (all of Z), a whole bunch of original DB games that solely focus on the pre-Z stuff (Advance Adventure, Revenge of King Piccolo, Mystery of Shen Long, Daimao Fukkatsu, Dragon Ball Origins 1 and 2, Dragon Ball 3: Gokuden, Super Gokuden, etc.), you've also got stuff like Burst Limit, Raging Blast, the Sparking/Tenkaichi series, Battle of Z, the Kinnect game, ALL OF WHICH are series-wide (but mainly Z) focused with NO extra emphasis on Freeza.

We could be here all day. The point however being: Freeza was NEVER the "most prominent bad guy" throughout the video games. That's COMPLETELY factually incorrect, and provably so just by LOOKING THROUGH all the games. The DBZ video game franchise has ALWAYS been extremely, extremely balanced with no one particular story arc or villain getting more predominance over others; apart from GT which is easily the single LEAST represented portion of the series as a whole by a substantially wide margin (original DB by comparison has WAY infinitely more video game representation than does GT).

And moreover 2) even if that WAS the case (which it isn't), it STILL wouldn't mean anything because the video games are just that: video games. The actual core series is a WHOLE other ballgame completely, and the tail shouldn't wag the dog (because when it does, you get vapid garbage like Heroes).
Toxin45 wrote:And frost of universe 6 is alive so would Frieza at the end their counterparts so it would only be balanced.
This literally makes no sense. What does this even mean? "Balanced" how? With what? What does Frost being alive have to do with anything? Frost is a whole bundle of wasted opportunity himself.
Toxin45 wrote:Also did you read Neko Majin about his son kuriza it could become canon now at this point introducing Frieza's son kuriza so I guess that is why super revived Frieza again to tie into His son kuriza.
There's literally NOTHING to base this on. Neko Majin Z was a cute gag manga one-off, something which is Toriyama's bread and butter. It has had absolutely ZERO long-term effect on DB in any way, shape, or form, and seems to be largely forgotten about by all except die-hard Toriyama devotees and people who make DB Wiki minutia their central point of focus.

There's been ZERO indication that it'll have anything remotely to do with it trotted out to tie in with DB Super. That's totally within the realm of baseless speculation and wishful thinking. I could just as easily say "Well you never know: Kishime, the random energy whip wielding henchman from DBZ Movie 2 COULD make a big comeback in a later Super arc and be the next big villain! Hey, you never know! He existed once in a DB thing back in the day, anything goes!" and it'd be just as likely or valid as Kuriza suddenly getting trotted out for a DB Super/Neko Majin Z crossover.
Toxin45 wrote:Look at naruto and one piece they most recurring villains like Blackbeard and Orochimaru and even newer shows and mangas like my hero academia which is based on western comics have recurring villains like tomura shigaraki,Dabi,and himiko.
I'd rather not, since those manga are all giant heaps of shit that I'd like DB to in NO WAY resemble in the slightest. Keep Naruto, One Piece, and My Hero Academia's bullshit confined to those series and away from DB please.

You are right about one thing though: My Hero Academia IS heavily based around Western-style superheroes. Guess what though? DB isn't and never has been (and no, the Pride Troopers suddenly being a thing hardly changes that: their superhero gimmick hardly has any impact on the plot whatsoever beyond giving their character backstories and motivations some context, they're just one random set of villains out of COUNTLESS throughout this whole entire series, and they're stupidly recent additions to boot).

DB is, and always has been from day 1 to now, centered around magical Kung Fu from Chinese myth, crossing over with random sci fi shit like robots and space aliens every now and then. Drawing a comparison between DB and My Hero Academia is about as much of a non-sequitur as my drawing a comparison between DB and Watchmen or DB and Steven Universe: the two things are in NO WAY related in the absolute slightest, outside of being comic books/cartoons featuring broad fantasy concepts.
Toxin45 wrote:I think modern dragon ball trying to experiment with that type of major recurring villains with Frieza.
I think that modern Dragon Ball is lazily recycling ideas from its original run because Toei desperately wants to milk this cow for all its worth without taking any serious risks with the tried and true formulas.
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Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Toxin45 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:01 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:At this point, I'm only continuing to do this just for the pure hell of it. I have no good excuse honestly.

<SNIP>
Your the one who is lazy at this point you keep repeating the same thing Frieza after the tournament of power is pretty much the only recurring villainnyouost faith in toriyama and now he is working on the film your just a cynical bitter mess Frieza after super pretty much became a recurrent villain now it is stupid to kill him off now and that he will show in the movie in someway. Dragon ball in modern times destroyed your original thoughts on the series and that recurring villain in dragon ball is a thing now so stop being so negative Frieza is here to stay whether you like it or not. Nobody cares about what you think dragon ball is a Sunday morning anime dude it's for kids her over it. You always stick to the negative super made Frieza a recurring villain and whining about won't change anything jeez you make long rants of course toriyama can change you just don't because no "toriyama oh no I don't want recurring villains" that is so childish and supine your an adult so grow up already. Also toppo failed to eliminate anyone and is eliminated by vegeta. Also goku and Frieza elimate a weakened Jiren together. also the concept of every new arc villain got old as well so doubt that it would make much difference now. Also Frieza did change a bit in the universal survival arc though given that he and 17 alongside goku were the last stand against Jiren Frieza learned to trust others and be a team player. Also Frieza returning was toriyama's idea though. Also original and unpredictable were also starting to become really old. Frieza is the only unreformed villain left alive at this point and dragon ball has changed throughout the years after battle of gods. Pretty much Frieza now has evil virtues after the tournament of power.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:54 am

Toxin45 wrote: Your the one who is lazy at this point you keep repeating the same thing
Bro, are you really calling Kunzait_83 lazy after that behemot of a post? Lol :lol:
Also, seriously, what's without your obsession with Frieza? Ever since you registered, all I've seen from you is posts about him. It wouldn't even be a problem if you didn't repeat the same thing in all of them. 'Frieza is becoming the Joker if DB blah blah" we get it dude.
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Toxin45 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:57 am

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Toxin45 wrote: Your the one who is lazy at this point you keep repeating the same thing
Bro, are you really calling Kunzait_83 lazy after that behemot of a post? Lol :lol:
Also, seriously, what's without your obsession with Frieza? Ever since you registered, all I've seen from you is posts about him. It wouldn't even be a problem if you didn't repeat the same thing in all of them. 'Frieza is becoming the Joker if DB blah blah" we get it dude.
Sorry dude i get over emotional and I like goku and vegeta too you know. People are still complaing about this and I am telling them to get over it. Also dude I know outside of dragon ball there are better villains but frieza is one of my favorites though along with many others.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:03 am

Toxin45 wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Toxin45 wrote: Your the one who is lazy at this point you keep repeating the same thing
Bro, are you really calling Kunzait_83 lazy after that behemot of a post? Lol :lol:
Also, seriously, what's without your obsession with Frieza? Ever since you registered, all I've seen from you is posts about him. It wouldn't even be a problem if you didn't repeat the same thing in all of them. 'Frieza is becoming the Joker if DB blah blah" we get it dude.
Sorry dude i get over emotional and I like goku and vegeta too you know. People are still complaing about this and I am telling them to get over it.
No need to apologize man, I was just saying. I was not suggesting to stop talking about Frieza, he's obviously one of your favourites and you have every right to, just like I mainly talk about Vegeta. What you need to do is provide new discussion topics, that's all. Because otherwise people are going to complain, like you saw.
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Toxin45 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:05 am

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote: Bro, are you really calling Kunzait_83 lazy after that behemot of a post? Lol :lol:
Also, seriously, what's without your obsession with Frieza? Ever since you registered, all I've seen from you is posts about him. It wouldn't even be a problem if you didn't repeat the same thing in all of them. 'Frieza is becoming the Joker if DB blah blah" we get it dude.
Sorry dude i get over emotional and I like goku and vegeta too you know. People are still complaing about this and I am telling them to get over it.
No need to apologize man, I was just saying. I was not suggesting to stop talking about Frieza, he's obviously one of your favourites and you have every right to, just like I mainly talk about Vegeta. What you need to do is provide new discussion topics, that's all. Because otherwise people are going to complain, like you saw.
like who the new saiyan is?

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:08 am

Toxin45 wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Toxin45 wrote: Sorry dude i get over emotional and I like goku and vegeta too you know. People are still complaing about this and I am telling them to get over it.
No need to apologize man, I was just saying. I was not suggesting to stop talking about Frieza, he's obviously one of your favourites and you have every right to, just like I mainly talk about Vegeta. What you need to do is provide new discussion topics, that's all. Because otherwise people are going to complain, like you saw.
like who the new saiyan is?
Yeah, that's an option. You could also talk about the new designs, or the new DB Heroes Anime, those topics are what's more popular right now.
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:39 am

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with a recurring villain, however, I think there are things that are absolutely vital in order to have decent recurring villain. Lets say, for the sake of argument that we were to place Freeza in the shoes as a recurring bad guy for DB in my examples.

First off, the villain should be thoroughly charismatic and enjoyable, something I believe is a category that Freeza more than fits into.

The villain, shouldn't always be at the forefront all the time, they should be more akin to a threatening shadow, ever present, by manipulating events behind a curtain. However, the problem with this, is that the recurring villain should have some kind of goal before taking action. If they were to continue with that idea in the future for Freeza, perhaps they could have him set events in motion that would prove distracting for our heroes, and the gods, while he searched for the Super Dragonballs in order to gain further power.

I think the thing that is absolutely necessary in making a good recurring villain, and why its really hard to pull off, is make them a dynamic, ever changing character. Everything they do should reflect something different about the character. I think the TOP nailed this aspect for Freeza by having him put all his faith in Goku, and even going as far as to team up with him. To have a good recurring villain, I think its important to constantly make the character feel fresh in a sense.

I think, if they can consistently come up with decent curve balls like that for the character, than I think they could pull him off as a recurring villain.

However, it is still, very much a tall order.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:26 am

Toxin45 wrote:Your the one who is lazy at this point you keep repeating the same thing
I don't think I need to point out the irony here, do I?

Suffice to say if you think I'm just repeating the same thing over and over, then you didn't even bother to read much of anything I said above.
Toxin45 wrote:Frieza after the tournament of power is pretty much the only recurring villainnyouost faith in toriyama and now he is working on the film
First of all, yes, for the thousandth time, WE KNOW Freeza has now been made a recurring villain as of Super. No one, leas of all me, is denying that that's the reality. The point is whether or not him being a recurring villain is a GOOD or POSITIVE thing, or at least something that has been executed well thus far.

I've gone to absurd, and probably ill-advised, lengths explaining in detail exactly WHY I think Freeza's recurring villain status has been, so far anyway, badly handled. I shouldn't even be replying to this frankly, given how you don't seem to be even reading or comprehending anything I'm saying and are simply acting out like a 6 year old throwing a tantrum rather than simply explaining for what specific reasons you think it is that its good for DB to have a recurring villain at all, much less why Freeza's stab at it has been well handled.

Secondly, while Toriyama has done script work for the Super-related films (BoG, RoF, and now the upcoming movie) his involvement in Super, the actual ongoing TV anime, is really REALLY limited. Only barely less limited than his involvement in GT was. To the best that we know of, all he does is provide a very rough, bullet pointed outline of the general trajectory for a given story arc along with very broad, basic character details and designs. The anime's writing staff does the majority of the heavy lifting and fills in/fleshes out all the details from there: to the point where they now have a dedicated "Dragon Ball Room", something which certainly was NOT a thing at any point previously in any of the other series.

Compared to the original manga, which was almost 100% all Toriyama's (with only marginal, albeit in some cases crucial, input from his editors overall), I'd BARELY consider Toriyama to be a particularly significant factor in Super overall. The movies though are at least a bit more so his, seeing as how he does a lot of the actual script writing for them.

And finally, I'm one of the biggest proponents of Toriyama as a fantastic creative mind and artist on these forums shy of perhaps only Cipher. I've gushed at length about my absolute, undying love for him as a designer, visual artist, and overall aestheticist, not to mention him having an utterly brilliant imagination as well as excellent and natural raw/gut instincts as a storyteller (to the point of utterly trouncing and putting to shame most of his would-be "successors" like Oda and Kishimoto who often mistake Junior High-level Emo sentiment for "depth").

All that being said though: the man isn't perfect. Nobody is. He's made things in the past that I've out and out despised (Dragon Ball Minus probably being chief among them). And despite my shameless fanboying fondness for one of its specific fight scenes (Z Warriors vs Freeza's army of cannon fodder grunts for the record), I'm overall hardly enamored with Revival of F, and that script was almost entirely from his (metaphorical) pen.

Overall, I love the guy's work to the point where I've been a loyal fan of this ridiculous opus of his for longer than more than half this forum has probably been alive, much less DB fans themselves, and more than half a decade before it was ever a gleam in FUNimation's eye. But loving something does not, nor should it, entail loving it blindly or thoughtlessly.

Despite my fondness for Toriyama's work, I still have some degree of standards for what I consider to be good quality work, and if he fails to meet them then I'm not gonna just pretend like I think that everything is gravy just to placate childishly over-sensitive feelings from folks like yourself. If something has problems then it has problems, no matter how much I otherwise like most of the rest of the work of the person who ultimately is responsible for making it.
Toxin45 wrote:your just a cynical bitter mess
Because I disagree with you and don't like a recent Japanese children's cartoon? I don't even HATE Super: its got a bunch of stuff I like a fair bit in it, and I've even said as much in my earlier reply to you before (not that you're even reading any of this in the first place). I just find it to be overall middling and pointless despite its cool bits. I'm FAR less harsh on it than a TON of other folks on here are though.

But no, I'm not fellating it or Freeza's usage in it sufficiently enough to your liking: ergo I'm a "cynical and bitter mess".

Liiiiittle over the top appraisal of my attitude here, wouldn't you say?
Toxin45 wrote:Frieza after super pretty much became a recurrent villain now it is stupid to kill him off now and that he will show in the movie in someway.
Right. Obviously we all know he's been a recurring villain in Super and is gonna be in the upcoming movie. Again, you're just mindlessly repeating obvious facts that we all are plainly aware of, while saying nothing, literally nothing whatsoever about WHY you're so adamant that DB having a recurring villain and Freeza being it are POSITIVE things that HELP the series (which was my original question to you in the first place). Other than some nonsense about Freeza supposedly being "front and center" in most of the video games: something that's completely irrelevant to the series itself, and isn't even factually accurate of the games anyway.

At this point I have no real stake in Super killing him off or not: just that it do SOMETHING halfway interesting or different with him now that its seen fit to bring him back (again) and place him back in his little floating space emperor's throne.
Toxin45 wrote:Dragon ball in modern times destroyed your original thoughts on the series
...no it didn't? Its still the same wonky, wacky magical kung fu fantasy series it always was. I don't think its even half as unpredictable, risk-taking, and innovative as it was before, which is ultimately my main issue with Super: that its Dragon Ball on autopilot a lot of the time (only periodically waking up and doing something truly interesting). But it hasn't "destroyed" a damn thing about my original thoughts on the series. That'd almost be giving Super far too much credit.

Again, you're just lashing out at me because I don't share in your enthusiasm for how its handled Freeza, when you could be engaging in an actual discussion with me instead.
Toxin45 wrote:and that recurring villain in dragon ball is a thing now so stop being so negative
Again, I'm hardly the most negative voice against Super on here. If you think that I'M being "too negative" about Super, go read some of Gaffer Tape's posts where he utterly EVISCERATES the living FUCK outta Super like Voorhees on a stoned co-ed.

I think that Super is painfully lazy, underachieving, and pisses away tons of potentially great ideas: but in NO way do I think its out and out irredeemably worthless garbage with zero positive qualities to it in the same way I think of stuff like Minus or Heroes or Xenoverse (all of which I'd be plenty happy to not have exist). Gaffer though: dude makes an art form out of shredding into Super.

Also, please be so kind as to NOT tell me how you think I should feel or what I should think. Again, I'm not even all that particularly negative when it comes to Super compared to some other folks here: but even if I were, its hardly yours or anyone else's place or business to tell me to stop feeling or thinking differently than you. People are here to think whatever the hell they want to think about anything and actually discuss why they feel or think the way they do, and are also free to disagree with each other. We're not all here to line up and parrot the same, identical opinions like mindless drones.

People here are not gonna agree with you on everything and are going to tell you why that is: grow up and deal with it. Or better yet, actually engage with them and try to do a much better job of presenting YOUR point of view, rather than throwing a hissy fit when someone expresses a differing viewpoint than you.
Toxin45 wrote:Frieza is here to stay whether you like it or not.
Again: nobody said otherwise, including me. We all know Freeza's hanging around Super and isn't going anywhere. You seem to be incapable of grasping the concept of people explaining why they think it isn't a good idea. It has NOTHING to do with anyone here somehow thinking that what they say or think will have any bearing on the outcome of Super. No one, least of all me, is under any delusions that what anyone says on this forum will have any bearing whatsoever on how Super develops. We're not 2 year olds.

This is the nature of having a discussions forum about virtually any subject at all: for people to express their thoughts and viewpoints, and compare notes on what they agree or disagree on, and why. That's what a conversation is: not everyone lining up like drooling imbeciles to declare "this sux" or "this rox" in unison like some kind of hivemind.
Toxin45 wrote:Nobody cares about what you think
Thanks pal. Love you too. Glad to know you're not taking this personally or overreacting or anything.
Toxin45 wrote:dragon ball is a Sunday morning anime dude it's for kids her over it.
Pretty sure I've said this exact same point myself numerous times in numerous threads, including this one.
Toxin45 wrote:You always stick to the negative
If you actually bother to read what I've said, you'll find me doling out my fair share of compliments on things in Super I happen to think are perfectly fine. Just from this thread alone I said this earlier:
Kunzait_83 wrote:There's a shot of him (Freeza) in his Toppo fight that's so cool I've almost been tempted to make it my avatar on here a few times.
Yes, clearly I just despise everything about Super and am just mindlessly trashing on every single thing about it.
Toxin45 wrote:super made Frieza a recurring villain and whining about won't change anything
Again, lets note the irony here:
Toxin45 wrote:Your the one who is lazy at this point you keep repeating the same thing
Toxin45 wrote:jeez you make long rants of course toriyama can change you just don't because no "toriyama oh no I don't want recurring villains" that is so childish and supine
I may make long rants, but at least they're written in comprehensible English, with things like proper spelling, grammar, and syntax.
Toxin45 wrote:your an adult so grow up already.
Quick review of some of your contributions to this "discussion":
Toxin45 wrote:your just a cynical bitter mess
Toxin45 wrote:Your the one who is lazy at this point you keep repeating the same thing
Toxin45 wrote:Frieza is here to stay whether you like it or not.
Toxin45 wrote:Nobody cares about what you think
And yet I'm the one in this thread who is "childish", "needs to grow up" and is "lazily repeating the same things over and over again". Someone wanna do a count of how many times some variation on the sentence "Freeza's now the only recurring villain in Dragon Ball, deal with it" have now been uttered just in this one thread here alone?
Toxin45 wrote:Also toppo failed to eliminate anyone and is eliminated by vegeta.
...ok. And this has WHAT to do with virtually ANYTHING we've been talking about in here exactly?
Toxin45 wrote:Also goku and Frieza elimate a weakened Jiren together.
...good for them? Again, total non-sequitur.
Toxin45 wrote:also the concept of every new arc villain got old as well so doubt that it would make much difference now.
Yeah I hear you, it sure does get to be stale old hat when something is constantly changing, reinventing itself, and trying out brand new things all the time rather than do the TRULY fresh and unpredictable thing and constantly delve back into the past to repeat old ideas and dredge up old characters and storylines that were already popular with people once.
Toxin45 wrote:Also Frieza did change a bit in the universal survival arc though given that he and 17 alongside goku were the last stand against Jiren Frieza learned to trust others and be a team player.
Be a team player HOW? And with WHO? After the tournament ends, he's back to running his space empire of genocidal psychopaths: who's he gonna "team up with" now that his ass is out of the woods and back on his throne? He shows NO inclination of turning into a good guy (something that you and I both agree would be trite and predictable for DB to pull with him at this point), so... of what possible potential fucking future use is it to have him "learn the value of team work and trusting others" if he's simply using the tournament as a means to an end to grab back his army and set about slaughtering innocent races by the scores of trillions for profit and fun once again?

This is my entire problem with how Freeza was used in the Tournament of Power: for all the cool bits of character interaction and fighting that his temporary alliance with Goku and co. yielded (and again, I totally agree that some of those moments were indeed genuinely cool, by themselves within a vacuum), the whole plotline ends up being such a narrative dead-end.

It leaves only one of two potential outcomes for later stories to run with, neither of which are particularly compelling or interesting: either Freeza simply comes back to cause more shit for Goku and the Z Warriors (in which case the whole "learning the value of team work and trusting people/trusting Goku meant all of jack shit in the long run) OR Freeza slowly heads down the path of redemption: again, something that you and I both agree would probably be terrible for him at this point.

The only OTHER potential I can conceivably think of that MIGHT lead to something that isn't as trite as either of the above: Freeza is used in later arcs as more of a "wild card", who by default is against Goku and the others, but when other villains and circumstances present themselves that's a threat to everyone, Freeza and Goku alike, Freeza will see fit to set aside his disgust for the Earth folk and occasionally work alongside them purely to protect his own ass from whatever else is happening currently.

That COULD work (maybe): but that's a VERY tricky needle to thread, and based on what its presented to us so far, I simply don't think that Super has that kind of creativity or ambitiousness in it to try anything that nuanced. So far its been largely content to waste totally promising ideas and concepts in favor of regurgitating familiar story and character beats that it knows that fans are nostalgic for.

Who knows though, hopefully I'm wrong and Super ramps it up and pulls out something cool like that in later arcs. But for the time being, I'm not holding my breath, as its spent 5 arcs and 133 episodes spinning stories with roughly maybe a quarter - at best - of the creativity and freshness of any of DB's previous series'.
Toxin45 wrote:Also Frieza returning was toriyama's idea though.
Sure was. And again, the guy isn't perfect nor is he God, and has shown himself plenty capable of making things that are less than stellar as well. Again, he also did DB Minus, a story whose pointless awfulness more than speaks for itself.

I still love Toriyama plenty as an artist of course, and at this point I doubt much would change that; tons of his previous work will always remain timelessly cool. But I'm not a mindless zombie either, and I'm allowed to occasionally think and say "Hey this thing that Toriyama did over here... kinda not so great I would say".
Toxin45 wrote:Also original and unpredictable were also starting to become really old.
........seriously?

I'm almost halfway tempted to sig this.
Toxin45 wrote:Frieza is the only unreformed villain left alive at this point and dragon ball has changed throughout the years after battle of gods.
Battle of Gods now having come about in the long ago and far away era that was 2013.
Toxin45 wrote:Pretty much Frieza now has evil virtues after the tournament of power.
Can anyone possibly make any sense of or translate what the hell this is supposed to even mean exactly?
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by VegettoEX » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:33 am

These kinds of excessive, single-line back-and-forths are explicitly frowned upon by our community guidelines. Just don't even engage if it's going to get to that level. Report posts that you feel do not live up to the spirit of these guidelines.

That being said, Toxin45, the majority of your posts here are either your "I like Freeza" posts repeated ad nauseam, or are otherwise bad faith engagements with other members. You have already received a formal account strike; let this be the final "free" warning alongside / on top of that. Indeed, your contributions do not live up to the spirit of the community guidelines.

Account strikes lead to temporary/permanent account bans, which revoke access to the entirety of the Kanzenshuu website.
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Toxin45 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:23 pm

VegettoEX wrote:These kinds of excessive, single-line back-and-forths are explicitly frowned upon by our community guidelines. Just don't even engage if it's going to get to that level. Report posts that you feel do not live up to the spirit of these guidelines.

That being said, Toxin45, the majority of your posts here are either your "I like Freeza" posts repeated ad nauseam, or are otherwise bad faith engagements with other members. You have already received a formal account strike; let this be the final "free" warning alongside / on top of that. Indeed, your contributions do not live up to the spirit of the community guidelines.

Account strikes lead to temporary/permanent account bans, which revoke access to the entirety of the Kanzenshuu website.
Okay I get it

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Toxin45 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:43 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Toxin45 wrote:Your the one who is lazy at this point you keep repeating the same thing
I don't think I need to point out the irony here, do I?

Suffice to say if you think I'm just repeating the same thing over and over, then you didn't even bother to read much of anything I said above.
Toxin45 wrote:Frieza after the tournament of power is pretty much the only recurring villainnyouost faith in toriyama and now he is working on the film
First of all, yes, for the thousandth time, WE KNOW Freeza has now been made a recurring villain as of Super. No one, leas of all me, is denying that that's the reality. The point is whether or not him being a recurring villain is a GOOD or POSITIVE thing, or at least something that has been executed well thus far.

I've gone to absurd, and probably ill-advised, lengths explaining in detail exactly WHY I think Freeza's recurring villain status has been, so far anyway, badly handled. I shouldn't even be replying to this frankly, given how you don't seem to be even reading or comprehending anything I'm saying and are simply acting out like a 6 year old throwing a tantrum rather than simply explaining for what specific reasons you think it is that its good for DB to have a recurring villain at all, much less why Freeza's stab at it has been well handled.

Secondly, while Toriyama has done script work for the Super-related films (BoG, RoF, and now the upcoming movie) his involvement in Super, the actual ongoing TV anime, is really REALLY limited. Only barely less limited than his involvement in GT was. To the best that we know of, all he does is provide a very rough, bullet pointed outline of the general trajectory for a given story arc along with very broad, basic character details and designs. The anime's writing staff does the majority of the heavy lifting and fills in/fleshes out all the details from there: to the point where they now have a dedicated "Dragon Ball Room", something which certainly was NOT a thing at any point previously in any of the other series.

Compared to the original manga, which was almost 100% all Toriyama's (with only marginal, albeit in some cases crucial, input from his editors overall), I'd BARELY consider Toriyama to be a particularly significant factor in Super overall. The movies though are at least a bit more so his, seeing as how he does a lot of the actual script writing for them.

And finally, I'm one of the biggest proponents of Toriyama as a fantastic creative mind and artist on these forums shy of perhaps only Cipher. I've gushed at length about my absolute, undying love for him as a designer, visual artist, and overall aestheticist, not to mention him having an utterly brilliant imagination as well as excellent and natural raw/gut instincts as a storyteller (to the point of utterly trouncing and putting to shame most of his would-be "successors" like Oda and Kishimoto who often mistake Junior High-level Emo sentiment for "depth").

All that being said though: the man isn't perfect. Nobody is. He's made things in the past that I've out and out despised (Dragon Ball Minus probably being chief among them). And despite my shameless fanboying fondness for one of its specific fight scenes (Z Warriors vs Freeza's army of cannon fodder grunts for the record), I'm overall hardly enamored with Revival of F, and that script was almost entirely from his (metaphorical) pen.

Overall, I love the guy's work to the point where I've been a loyal fan of this ridiculous opus of his for longer than more than half this forum has probably been alive, much less DB fans themselves, and more than half a decade before it was ever a gleam in FUNimation's eye. But loving something does not, nor should it, entail loving it blindly or thoughtlessly.

Despite my fondness for Toriyama's work, I still have some degree of standards for what I consider to be good quality work, and if he fails to meet them then I'm not gonna just pretend like I think that everything is gravy just to placate childishly over-sensitive feelings from folks like yourself. If something has problems then it has problems, no matter how much I otherwise like most of the rest of the work of the person who ultimately is responsible for making it.
Toxin45 wrote:your just a cynical bitter mess
Because I disagree with you and don't like a recent Japanese children's cartoon? I don't even HATE Super: its got a bunch of stuff I like a fair bit in it, and I've even said as much in my earlier reply to you before (not that you're even reading any of this in the first place). I just find it to be overall middling and pointless despite its cool bits. I'm FAR less harsh on it than a TON of other folks on here are though.

But no, I'm not fellating it or Freeza's usage in it sufficiently enough to your liking: ergo I'm a "cynical and bitter mess".

Liiiiittle over the top appraisal of my attitude here, wouldn't you say?
Toxin45 wrote:Frieza after super pretty much became a recurrent villain now it is stupid to kill him off now and that he will show in the movie in someway.
Right. Obviously we all know he's been a recurring villain in Super and is gonna be in the upcoming movie. Again, you're just mindlessly repeating obvious facts that we all are plainly aware of, while saying nothing, literally nothing whatsoever about WHY you're so adamant that DB having a recurring villain and Freeza being it are POSITIVE things that HELP the series (which was my original question to you in the first place). Other than some nonsense about Freeza supposedly being "front and center" in most of the video games: something that's completely irrelevant to the series itself, and isn't even factually accurate of the games anyway.

At this point I have no real stake in Super killing him off or not: just that it do SOMETHING halfway interesting or different with him now that its seen fit to bring him back (again) and place him back in his little floating space emperor's throne.
Toxin45 wrote:Dragon ball in modern times destroyed your original thoughts on the series
...no it didn't? Its still the same wonky, wacky magical kung fu fantasy series it always was. I don't think its even half as unpredictable, risk-taking, and innovative as it was before, which is ultimately my main issue with Super: that its Dragon Ball on autopilot a lot of the time (only periodically waking up and doing something truly interesting). But it hasn't "destroyed" a damn thing about my original thoughts on the series. That'd almost be giving Super far too much credit.

Again, you're just lashing out at me because I don't share in your enthusiasm for how its handled Freeza, when you could be engaging in an actual discussion with me instead.
Toxin45 wrote:and that recurring villain in dragon ball is a thing now so stop being so negative
Again, I'm hardly the most negative voice against Super on here. If you think that I'M being "too negative" about Super, go read some of Gaffer Tape's posts where he utterly EVISCERATES the living FUCK outta Super like Voorhees on a stoned co-ed.

I think that Super is painfully lazy, underachieving, and pisses away tons of potentially great ideas: but in NO way do I think its out and out irredeemably worthless garbage with zero positive qualities to it in the same way I think of stuff like Minus or Heroes or Xenoverse (all of which I'd be plenty happy to not have exist). Gaffer though: dude makes an art form out of shredding into Super.

Also, please be so kind as to NOT tell me how you think I should feel or what I should think. Again, I'm not even all that particularly negative when it comes to Super compared to some other folks here: but even if I were, its hardly yours or anyone else's place or business to tell me to stop feeling or thinking differently than you. People are here to think whatever the hell they want to think about anything and actually discuss why they feel or think the way they do, and are also free to disagree with each other. We're not all here to line up and parrot the same, identical opinions like mindless drones.

People here are not gonna agree with you on everything and are going to tell you why that is: grow up and deal with it. Or better yet, actually engage with them and try to do a much better job of presenting YOUR point of view, rather than throwing a hissy fit when someone expresses a differing viewpoint than you.
Toxin45 wrote:Frieza is here to stay whether you like it or not.
Again: nobody said otherwise, including me. We all know Freeza's hanging around Super and isn't going anywhere. You seem to be incapable of grasping the concept of people explaining why they think it isn't a good idea. It has NOTHING to do with anyone here somehow thinking that what they say or think will have any bearing on the outcome of Super. No one, least of all me, is under any delusions that what anyone says on this forum will have any bearing whatsoever on how Super develops. We're not 2 year olds.

This is the nature of having a discussions forum about virtually any subject at all: for people to express their thoughts and viewpoints, and compare notes on what they agree or disagree on, and why. That's what a conversation is: not everyone lining up like drooling imbeciles to declare "this sux" or "this rox" in unison like some kind of hivemind.
Toxin45 wrote:Nobody cares about what you think
Thanks pal. Love you too. Glad to know you're not taking this personally or overreacting or anything.
Toxin45 wrote:dragon ball is a Sunday morning anime dude it's for kids her over it.
Pretty sure I've said this exact same point myself numerous times in numerous threads, including this one.
Toxin45 wrote:You always stick to the negative
If you actually bother to read what I've said, you'll find me doling out my fair share of compliments on things in Super I happen to think are perfectly fine. Just from this thread alone I said this earlier:
Kunzait_83 wrote:There's a shot of him (Freeza) in his Toppo fight that's so cool I've almost been tempted to make it my avatar on here a few times.
Yes, clearly I just despise everything about Super and am just mindlessly trashing on every single thing about it.
Toxin45 wrote:super made Frieza a recurring villain and whining about won't change anything
Again, lets note the irony here:
Toxin45 wrote:Your the one who is lazy at this point you keep repeating the same thing
Toxin45 wrote:jeez you make long rants of course toriyama can change you just don't because no "toriyama oh no I don't want recurring villains" that is so childish and supine
I may make long rants, but at least they're written in comprehensible English, with things like proper spelling, grammar, and syntax.
Toxin45 wrote:your an adult so grow up already.
Quick review of some of your contributions to this "discussion":
Toxin45 wrote:your just a cynical bitter mess
Toxin45 wrote:Your the one who is lazy at this point you keep repeating the same thing
Toxin45 wrote:Frieza is here to stay whether you like it or not.
Toxin45 wrote:Nobody cares about what you think
And yet I'm the one in this thread who is "childish", "needs to grow up" and is "lazily repeating the same things over and over again". Someone wanna do a count of how many times some variation on the sentence "Freeza's now the only recurring villain in Dragon Ball, deal with it" have now been uttered just in this one thread here alone?
Toxin45 wrote:Also toppo failed to eliminate anyone and is eliminated by vegeta.
...ok. And this has WHAT to do with virtually ANYTHING we've been talking about in here exactly?
Toxin45 wrote:Also goku and Frieza elimate a weakened Jiren together.
...good for them? Again, total non-sequitur.
Toxin45 wrote:also the concept of every new arc villain got old as well so doubt that it would make much difference now.
Yeah I hear you, it sure does get to be stale old hat when something is constantly changing, reinventing itself, and trying out brand new things all the time rather than do the TRULY fresh and unpredictable thing and constantly delve back into the past to repeat old ideas and dredge up old characters and storylines that were already popular with people once.
Toxin45 wrote:Also Frieza did change a bit in the universal survival arc though given that he and 17 alongside goku were the last stand against Jiren Frieza learned to trust others and be a team player.
Be a team player HOW? And with WHO? After the tournament ends, he's back to running his space empire of genocidal psychopaths: who's he gonna "team up with" now that his ass is out of the woods and back on his throne? He shows NO inclination of turning into a good guy (something that you and I both agree would be trite and predictable for DB to pull with him at this point), so... of what possible potential fucking future use is it to have him "learn the value of team work and trusting others" if he's simply using the tournament as a means to an end to grab back his army and set about slaughtering innocent races by the scores of trillions for profit and fun once again?

This is my entire problem with how Freeza was used in the Tournament of Power: for all the cool bits of character interaction and fighting that his temporary alliance with Goku and co. yielded (and again, I totally agree that some of those moments were indeed genuinely cool, by themselves within a vacuum), the whole plotline ends up being such a narrative dead-end.

It leaves only one of two potential outcomes for later stories to run with, neither of which are particularly compelling or interesting: either Freeza simply comes back to cause more shit for Goku and the Z Warriors (in which case the whole "learning the value of team work and trusting people/trusting Goku meant all of jack shit in the long run) OR Freeza slowly heads down the path of redemption: again, something that you and I both agree would probably be terrible for him at this point.

The only OTHER potential I can conceivably think of that MIGHT lead to something that isn't as trite as either of the above: Freeza is used in later arcs as more of a "wild card", who by default is against Goku and the others, but when other villains and circumstances present themselves that's a threat to everyone, Freeza and Goku alike, Freeza will see fit to set aside his disgust for the Earth folk and occasionally work alongside them purely to protect his own ass from whatever else is happening currently.

That COULD work (maybe): but that's a VERY tricky needle to thread, and based on what its presented to us so far, I simply don't think that Super has that kind of creativity or ambitiousness in it to try anything that nuanced. So far its been largely content to waste totally promising ideas and concepts in favor of regurgitating familiar story and character beats that it knows that fans are nostalgic for.

Who knows though, hopefully I'm wrong and Super ramps it up and pulls out something cool like that in later arcs. But for the time being, I'm not holding my breath, as its spent 5 arcs and 133 episodes spinning stories with roughly maybe a quarter - at best - of the creativity and freshness of any of DB's previous series'.
Toxin45 wrote:Also Frieza returning was toriyama's idea though.
Sure was. And again, the guy isn't perfect nor is he God, and has shown himself plenty capable of making things that are less than stellar as well. Again, he also did DB Minus, a story whose pointless awfulness more than speaks for itself.

I still love Toriyama plenty as an artist of course, and at this point I doubt much would change that; tons of his previous work will always remain timelessly cool. But I'm not a mindless zombie either, and I'm allowed to occasionally think and say "Hey this thing that Toriyama did over here... kinda not so great I would say".
Toxin45 wrote:Also original and unpredictable were also starting to become really old.
........seriously?

I'm almost halfway tempted to sig this.
Toxin45 wrote:Frieza is the only unreformed villain left alive at this point and dragon ball has changed throughout the years after battle of gods.
Battle of Gods now having come about in the long ago and far away era that was 2013.
Toxin45 wrote:Pretty much Frieza now has evil virtues after the tournament of power.
Can anyone possibly make any sense of or translate what the hell this is supposed to even mean exactly?
by evil virtues i mean this While still a monster, by the end of Dragonball Super Freeza eventualy became a gentlemanly monster capable of genuine courage, respect, trust and even to a certain degree honor. Even before joining Team Universe Seven, Frieza is characterized by determination and refusal to concede to defeat.
He is also slowly learning the virtue of gratitude, after years and years of being a purely Ungrateful Bastard. After his second resurrection, Freeza demonstrated a need to repay any and all acts of kindness towards him in full; mostly because his colossal pride cannot allow him to bear the knowledge of being in debt to anyone ever again. He claims to be grateful for Goku's naive nature during their final battle with Jiren, and even flatly refused to be thanked by by Goku after helping him save Universe Seven, considering even his appreciation to be yet another debt to his enemy. It may have been largely born out of circumstance, but it's still there.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by AloversGaming » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:08 pm

kemuri07 wrote:
AloversGaming wrote:
kemuri07 wrote: that's really funny considering the anime we're talking about.

Also, my guess is you probably haven't read a comic in a while.
You're correct, I haven't. Considering the fact that comics haven't changed at all since I quit reading my point still stands true.

But hey, who am I to judge. Enjoy your Batman version of Wile E. Coyote and the Road Runner. I'm sure The Joker will get his hands on Batman any day now, no matter how many poorly written stories and pointless reboots he has to suffer through. There's a Batman movie out where he's a ninja now, i'm sure that will keep The Joker's character fresh for another week!
I mean, I guess if you're just going to admit you have no idea what you're talking about.

Who are you to judge?



1. Let's not pretend the issues prevalent in comic books don't appear in anime/manga--they do. It's the fucking problem of "oh shit, these things have to make money." So story lines, characters get regurgitated again and again because they have to make sure they make that money back. So far all the zillions of anime shows that get released every season, only about a couple of them are actually worth checking out. Calling out Comic books is a lot like the pot calling the kettle black. It's the same shit.

2. And I know you don't know what you're talking about because there's so many different variety of comics that aren't superhero books, and that actually are willing to do interesting things with the medium. Shit, I'll give you one. Saga. Hell, I'll give you another freebie: East of West. Maybe actually do some reading, and then we can have a conversation.
At what point in my message did I mention manga not having similar problems. Stop making up false statements in your head then trying to pass them off as if someone said them.

You just wrote a ton of crap about anime and manga as some kind of counter to something I never wrote. I haven't watched an anime series besides DBS since Code Geass in 2011 and have never read a manga. Ever. I also never brought up storylines in movies and video games, want to include that in your rant, too? "How can you call out comics when comic based tv shows have issues, too!!!!11!!"

Your entire reply actually seems to be about defending comic book criticism. I don't like repeating villains and stories, thus I am a terrible human that doesn't have good taste in entertainment. Good job being the living stereotype of every 90s comic nerd. And FYI; the need to make money isn't a good counter to criticism about the quality of a product. Peace.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Saturnine » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:14 am

Well, RoF may not have been great, but ateast it was somewhat exonerated retroactively by Freeza's return for the ToP. All in all, I think that Freeza's canon return can't even be compared to his many filler returns, where he was reduced to just a shit-talking mook pushover. To say filler has worfed him is the biggest understatement in history. Toei even tried cashing in on his popularity by creating Cooler, a 100% derivative and entirely needless character. Freeza's return for the ToP succeeded at many things: keeping him relevant, providing enjoyment from observing his interactions with the remaining cast (uneasy cooperation and stuff), and starting him out on a character arc. I feel that he's not going to let himself get killed so easily this time.

The only thing I don't understand is how Vegeta can rein in his resentment towards Freeza, he should be way less tolerant of the guy than he was portrayed being.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by The gr » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:05 pm

I just don't see the point of reviving guys like Super Buu and Cell since they already fulfilled their purpose and have nothing interesting to offer.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:57 am

The gr wrote:I just don't see the point of reviving guys like Super Buu and Cell since they already fulfilled their purpose and have nothing interesting to offer.
Exactly.. Its the Same thing for Freeza.. Kunzait and ABED have literally said everything I would've said but better :lol: .

Freeza coming back in the 2015 movie would've been worth while, if such had a lasting impact. I made the argument before that if teaching Goku a lesson about being "too laxed" in a fight and Vegeta being "too tense" were the driving points of the movie, you DID NOT have to bring Freeza back in order to get that message across... at least not in the boring fashion that it did.

I know this really ins't the topic for fan fic stuff but what the hell its for the sake of example

For instance, The Power Jump that Freeza attained would have been lot easier on the brain if he had been under the tutelage if say.. A Makaioshin. Lets say a random Makaioshin saw how Goku Defeated Boo and was infuriated that their chance of temporal "Freedom" (Boo) was destroyed by a mortal, especially one as care-free as Goku. Makaioshin lack access to the "living world" but their protege do not and those they can temporarily possess with enough wickedness in their hearts are obviously already part of the living plain.

Boo was created by ALL of the Makaioshin Eons ago as THE ONE answer to the Gods of Destruction that Zeno allowed them to have because he likes to be fair sometimes. GoDs exist to maintain balance in the universe but they all have this odd tendency to slack off in one form or fashion. Boo existed to work in the GoD's stead while they slept or whatever. If Zeno felt that Boo did a Good enough job, he would temporarily let down the barrier that separates the Living world and Makai-o World and let them take souls of those that were "deservingly" killed by Boo to help populate the Makai-o World and make it more Fun for them because to Zeno every one deserves some fun once in a while. Bibidi was a Makaioshin in Training but got greedy (wanting the Living World for himself) once he learned some cool ticks from them and ditched them one day after learning the spell to summon and seal away Boo and thus the Boo arc happened as we know.

Lets say Random Makaioshin realizes that Boo can't be resurrected because his soul is forever tainted in both of his incarnations, Fat Boo has the essence of not only a Kaioshin but the Grand Elder Kaoishin as well so there's WAY too much positive energy within that Boo to turn him back into an evil construct of destruction. Pure Boo's soul was reincarnated into Oob who is currently too weak and Pure of Heart to be possessed and turned back (kind of) into Boo's original self. So he looks back into a crystal ball that has history's greatest moments recorded and stumbles upon Goku's fight with Freeza and chooses the ex tyrant to be the catalyst for the new Makaioshin uprise.. Only they cant use the Dragon Balls to bring him back due to not having access to the mortal world. Soooo they temporarily take possession of Pilaf's body who's heart is just wickedly selfish enough to inhabit (who's also stumbled upon a rare Makaioshin stone that he was going to sell for money) and now Makaio-Pilaf breaks into capsule corp and steals the Dragon radar and collects the Dragon Balls.

Freeza being revived is a slice of cake for the God Dragon but sending him to the Makaioshin world is a feat in of its self and in order for Shenron to do that he'll need two full years to recharge (because fuck it why not). Now fully revived in the Makaioshin world Freeza meets the mastermind behind his restoration and they quickly find that they have a mutual enemy in Goku. Freeza initially wants to train on his own but doesnt know where to start and THATS where the Makaiosin comes in to offer to teach him the TRUE fundamentals of Martial arts and the Dark Arts.

After Training for a year in an entirely different dimension by a different order of being, Freeza attains his Golden form as well as some other neat tricks like mild necromancy or something idk and he, with the Makioshin are ready to inact they're revenge by way of transporting them selves into the mortal world by way of that mysterious Makai-O stone that Pilaf had only Freeza Kills the MakioShin claiming that he no longer needs him and doesn't want him getting in the way of his Rule over the Universe after he kills Goku and eventually Lord Beerus at some point.

RoF happens pretty much as we know from that point only this time ending with Beerus and Whis not wanting to interact with Goku and Co as much seeing as though Whis had to rewind time to undo severe damage and realizing that they weren't the only Gods willing to be a bit unorthodox for their own pleasure and that fact could have dire consequences on the multiverse. Mean while another MakaioShin watches from afar, scolding the other MakaioShin for trusting a Mortal (Freeza) to live up to a Gods wishes and begins to do research on Saiyan Physiology (hinting at the Goku-Black arc). Also Freeza invades Earth with an army of Demons that he learned to conjure not scraps of his defunct empire.

I know, I know that's a lot, just to try and prove a point.. but to me that would've made the entire idea of Freeza coming back way more worth while even if still pretty bland.
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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Toxin45 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:07 am

goku the krump dancer wrote:
The gr wrote:I just don't see the point of reviving guys like Super Buu and Cell since they already fulfilled their purpose and have nothing interesting to offer.
Exactly.. Its the Same thing for Freeza.. Kunzait and ABED have literally said everything I would've said but better :lol: .

Freeza coming back in the 2015 movie would've been worth while, if such had a lasting impact. I made the argument before that if teaching Goku a lesson about being "too laxed" in a fight and Vegeta being "too tense" were the driving points of the movie, you DID NOT have to bring Freeza back in order to get that message across... at least not in the boring fashion that it did.

I know this really ins't the topic for fan fic stuff but what the hell its for the sake of example

For instance, The Power Jump that Freeza attained would have been lot easier on the brain if he had been under the tutelage if say.. A Makaioshin. Lets say a random Makaioshin saw how Goku Defeated Boo and was infuriated that their chance of temporal "Freedom" (Boo) was destroyed by a mortal, especially one as care-free as Goku. Makaioshin lack access to the "living world" but their protege do not and those they can temporarily possess with enough wickedness in their hearts are obviously already part of the living plain.

Boo was created by ALL of the Makaioshin Eons ago as THE ONE answer to the Gods of Destruction that Zeno allowed them to have because he likes to be fair sometimes. GoDs exist to maintain balance in the universe but they all have this odd tendency to slack off in one form or fashion. Boo existed to work in the GoD's stead while they slept or whatever. If Zeno felt that Boo did a Good enough job, he would temporarily let down the barrier that separates the Living world and Makai-o World and let them take souls of those that were "deservingly" killed by Boo to help populate the Makai-o World and make it more Fun for them because to Zeno every one deserves some fun once in a while. Bibidi was a Makaioshin in Training but got greedy (wanting the Living World for himself) once he learned some cool ticks from them and ditched them one day after learning the spell to summon and seal away Boo and thus the Boo arc happened as we know.

Lets say Random Makaioshin realizes that Boo can't be resurrected because his soul is forever tainted in both of his incarnations, Fat Boo has the essence of not only a Kaioshin but the Grand Elder Kaoishin as well so there's WAY too much positive energy within that Boo to turn him back into an evil construct of destruction. Pure Boo's soul was reincarnated into Oob who is currently too weak and Pure of Heart to be possessed and turned back (kind of) into Boo's original self. So he looks back into a crystal ball that has history's greatest moments recorded and stumbles upon Goku's fight with Freeza and chooses the ex tyrant to be the catalyst for the new Makaioshin uprise.. Only they cant use the Dragon Balls to bring him back due to not having access to the mortal world. Soooo they temporarily take possession of Pilaf's body who's heart is just wickedly selfish enough to inhabit (who's also stumbled upon a rare Makaioshin stone that he was going to sell for money) and now Makaio-Pilaf breaks into capsule corp and steals the Dragon radar and collects the Dragon Balls.

Freeza being revived is a slice of cake for the God Dragon but sending him to the Makaioshin world is a feat in of its self and in order for Shenron to do that he'll need two full years to recharge (because fuck it why not). Now fully revived in the Makaioshin world Freeza meets the mastermind behind his restoration and they quickly find that they have a mutual enemy in Goku. Freeza initially wants to train on his own but doesnt know where to start and THATS where the Makaiosin comes in to offer to teach him the TRUE fundamentals of Martial arts and the Dark Arts.

After Training for a year in an entirely different dimension by a different order of being, Freeza attains his Golden form as well as some other neat tricks like mild necromancy or something idk and he, with the Makioshin are ready to inact they're revenge by way of transporting them selves into the mortal world by way of that mysterious Makai-O stone that Pilaf had only Freeza Kills the MakioShin claiming that he no longer needs him and doesn't want him getting in the way of his Rule over the Universe after he kills Goku and eventually Lord Beerus at some point.

RoF happens pretty much as we know from that point only this time ending with Beerus and Whis not wanting to interact with Goku and Co as much seeing as though Whis had to rewind time to undo severe damage and realizing that they weren't the only Gods willing to be a bit unorthodox for their own pleasure and that fact could have dire consequences on the multiverse. Mean while another MakaioShin watches from afar, scolding the other MakaioShin for trusting a Mortal (Freeza) to live up to a Gods wishes and begins to do research on Saiyan Physiology (hinting at the Goku-Black arc). Also Freeza invades Earth with an army of Demons that he learned to conjure not scraps of his defunct empire.

I know, I know that's a lot, just to try and prove a point.. but to me that would've made the entire idea of Freeza coming back way more worth while even if still pretty bland.
Then he returned in the tournament of power after the retelling in super. Dude you forget that he returned in the tournament of power and helped universe 7 win the tournament of power then being revived again by whis.

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Re: What's so bad about the idea of a recurring villain?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:29 pm

Toxin45 wrote:Then he returned in the tournament of power after the retelling in super. Dude you forget that he returned in the tournament of power and helped universe 7 win the tournament of power then being revived again by whis.
No he didn't. He's simply describing a hypothetical manner in which to improve the narrative for the Revival of F arc in and of itself. Even allowing for the view that the Tournament of Power made better use of Freeza than did Revival of F (if only by virtue of even trying to put SOME unique spin on the character), that doesn't take away from the Revival of F story being bland and underwhelming by itself, divorced from the later arc.

These things have to stand on their own also: all the more so with Revival of F also taking on the form of a stand alone movie as well as a recap arc of Super. Regardless of what the Tournament of Power arc did with Freeza after, it has no bearing on the story for Revival of F basically wasting the character on a complete nothing story. Freeza comes back, he fights Goku and Vegeta again, he loses again. That's almost very literally IT, with close to nothing in the way of any real twist on the formula (apart from the debut of new forms which are at a bare minimum among the least creative in the franchise's history, and a "rewind time" gimmick at the end which is almost universally reviled by fandom, and justly so due to how clunky it is).

Krump was simply trying to think of some ideas to jazz it up a little more.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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