Herms' use of "several" in the Strength Checker

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xmysticgohanx
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Herms' use of "several" in the Strength Checker

Post by xmysticgohanx » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:35 pm

In English, several means more than two but less than many (a large number of): https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/several

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/many

Does the Japanese word Herms' translates into several also have the "more than two" connotation?
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Re: Herms' use of "several" in the Strength Checker

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:51 pm

You'd need to cite a specific sentence for someone to check.

I'd encourage you to listen to Episode #0396 of our podcast, where Jake and I talk about the translation style used in that thread.
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Re: Herms' use of "several" in the Strength Checker

Post by xmysticgohanx » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:45 pm

Looks like I meant "many" instead:

Chapter: 89, P14.1
Context: Goku accuses Karin of lying about the increase in power he should have received from the Super Holy Water.
Karin: “Nyahhahha! I didn’t trick you!! Your power has already become many times greater!”

Chapter: 140, P10.6
Context: Piccolo talking to Tambourine
Piccolo: “Immediately go and take care of whoever killed Cymbal! You’re many times stronger than Cymbal, but don’t get caught off guard.”

Chapter: 189, P5.2, P6.1
Piccolo: “You think you can win? There’s no way you can…! I’ve…I’ve…leveled up so much that I’m now many times stronger than I was when I fought you 3 years ago…!”
Goku: “Well then, I’ve gotten just a little bit stronger than even that.”

You get the idea. I'll add a "several" just out of curiosity though:

Chapter: 413 (DBZ 219), P10.1, P11.3-4, P12.1
Context: after regenerating from his self-destruction
Cell: “There’s a small clump inside my head…This makes up my nucleus…As long as that clump isn’t destroyed, my body can continue regenerating…When I self-destructed, my nucleus fortunately remained uninjured…Quite frankly, I hadn’t calculated on being able to regenerate…I was lucky…And even more happily, my body regenerated as my perfect form, even without No.18…And it wasn’t merely my perfect form: I had vastly powered up like Son Gohan…This was probably done by the Saiyan cells, which greatly increase in power when they are saved from the brink of death…And I even managed to learn Son Goku’s Teleportation…So in short, I was able to return here, having become even more perfect. It seems that rather than defeat me, Son Goku has given me several presents.”

Do all of these have to mean "more than two" or is "two or more" the meaning?

I'll watch the podcast sometime this weekend
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
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Re: Herms' use of "several" in the Strength Checker

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:05 pm

"Several" is less than "many," but quite a bit more than a "bit," which is a bit more than a "tad," which is also a tad less than a "smidgen."

It is also more or less equivalent to a "bunch," which is much more than "some," but a tad less than a "lot."

So basically, to figure out "several," just take a bit of the bunch of stuff I just told you, then subtract a lot of that to end up with a smidgen more than what you started with.
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Re: Herms' use of "several" in the Strength Checker

Post by Cipher » Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:30 pm

I can't easily check any of the original Japanese lines at the moment, but I'm guessing the phrase used in most of those cases is nanbai (何倍), which is literally "manyfold," and breaks down into "what/indeterminate" and "times/-fold."

Which would literally imply "more than twice as much," but since strength doesn't really work that way (like, maybe someone could lift twice the weight someone else can, or run twice as fast, but without quantifiables like that, what does it really mean?), and since it's a generally easy way of saying someone is much stronger, I'd hesitate to it's meant to be that literal or exact a statement. They're basically just saying, "Hey, I'm/you're/he or she's a lot stronger."

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Re: Herms' use of "several" in the Strength Checker

Post by Snow_Lilies » Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:38 am

xmysticgohanx wrote:Looks like I meant "many" instead:

Chapter: 89, P14.1
Context: Goku accuses Karin of lying about the increase in power he should have received from the Super Holy Water.
Karin: “Nyahhahha! I didn’t trick you!! Your power has already become many times greater!”

Chapter: 140, P10.6
Context: Piccolo talking to Tambourine
Piccolo: “Immediately go and take care of whoever killed Cymbal! You’re many times stronger than Cymbal, but don’t get caught off guard.”

Chapter: 189, P5.2, P6.1
Piccolo: “You think you can win? There’s no way you can…! I’ve…I’ve…leveled up so much that I’m now many times stronger than I was when I fought you 3 years ago…!”
Goku: “Well then, I’ve gotten just a little bit stronger than even that.”

You get the idea. I'll add a "several" just out of curiosity though:

Chapter: 413 (DBZ 219), P10.1, P11.3-4, P12.1
Context: after regenerating from his self-destruction
Cell: “There’s a small clump inside my head…This makes up my nucleus…As long as that clump isn’t destroyed, my body can continue regenerating…When I self-destructed, my nucleus fortunately remained uninjured…Quite frankly, I hadn’t calculated on being able to regenerate…I was lucky…And even more happily, my body regenerated as my perfect form, even without No.18…And it wasn’t merely my perfect form: I had vastly powered up like Son Gohan…This was probably done by the Saiyan cells, which greatly increase in power when they are saved from the brink of death…And I even managed to learn Son Goku’s Teleportation…So in short, I was able to return here, having become even more perfect. It seems that rather than defeat me, Son Goku has given me several presents.”

Do all of these have to mean "more than two" or is "two or more" the meaning?

I'll watch the podcast sometime this weekend
Chapter 89 uses nanbai (何倍), so you can refer to Cipher's comments on that. The next two use suubai (数倍) which is usually translated as several. To me, suubai comes off as stronger than nanbai, but I'd see what others have to say about that. The last one with Cell is actually iroiro (いろいろ, in the text), which can also mean "several" but refers to a "variety" (or general variousness) of whatever. I've seen iroiro used both like "a few" and "several", so it's a bit less specific than those English terms, but I don't think it generally refers to "loads of different things" unless you're downplaying the number.

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Re: Herms' use of "several" in the Strength Checker

Post by Cipher » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:29 am

Snow_Lilies wrote:I've seen iroiro used both like "a few" and "several", so it's a bit less specific than those English terms, but I don't think it generally refers to "loads of different things" unless you're downplaying the number.
いろいろ is just "various," but it's a much more common word in Japanese than that would imply in English, and often pops up on contexts where they speaker just means to to indicate some number of different things are involved. It doesn't really comment on the amount; that's contextual, but sometimes it's the smoother way to translate it. So Cell's just saying Goku has given him various gifts (in this case his increased strength and teleportation).

The cases that are probably of more interest to the thread author are the uses of bai (倍), and I'm not aware what, if any, the different connotations would be between nanbai and suubai. Both literally imply something is another thing many/several times over, but again, I'm not sure that's a literal mathematical statement for strength (then again, maybe for the purposes of power debates, it is; they are electing to literally say "___ times stronger" rather than just "stronger"). My educated guess from their characters, most common translations, and use in the quotes above would be that nanbai implies a more pronounced difference, as it isn't a case of just "several" times stronger, but a more hyperbolic, "Who knows? It's a lot!" Its single use in the cases above is also reserved for an enormous power-up for Goku, and an instance where his power may have literally multiplied, while the other two are simply indications that someone's better than another character or their own previous strength.

It looks like Herms just went with "many" in all cases, because there isn't that big a difference?

Anyway, per the OP: All the words involved generally have a connotation of "more than two." Though if you want to bring it strictly into the realm of power debates, I'm pretty sure the most common power level for Piccolo Daimao is actually more than half of what Piccolo displays against Raditz (I can't believe I remember that), let alone at the Tenkaichi Budokai, so if the goal is to get strictly mathematical, they already don't jive with the series' one major method for actually measuring ki-based strength.

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Re: Herms' use of "several" in the Strength Checker

Post by xmysticgohanx » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:56 pm

Thanks everyone

@cipher yeah I already accepted that those power statements were retconned
Canon is Jaco, Dragon Ball except for EoZ, Dragon Ball Super anime and manga (both are separate canons)
Kai >>> Z
Current Roshi/Kulilin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSJ3 Gotenks

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